Session 5-15 & 5-16: Season Outline

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I would love a scene of Huan fighting a dragon :D But I don't think it's easy to do - the hosts wanted only one dragon in this battle, and neither Glaurung nor Huan can die here. Could it be some form of withdrawal? Huan isn't afraid of danger or death though, and his big withdrawal moment is connected to Draugluin (who is looking to kill Huan) when Celegorm orders Huan to come with him and they flee to Nargothrond; Celegorm wants to protect Huan from his part in the Doom of the Noldor that we're revealing this season. And Glaurung probably shouldn't withdraw in three consecutive battles - he needs to win at least once before Turin's story.

Maybe their fight could be interrupted by circumstances, but it shouldn't feel like teasing the viewers and then denying them the action scene climax they were looking for.
Please remind me how Draugluin is involved if Sauron’s crew isn’t participating in the Dagor Bragollach.
 
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Alcarlótë

Active Member
Sauron is very much participating though ^^ This was mentioned in Episode 5-14. It makes no sense for Morgoth to not involve his most powerful servant and his minions in this all-out assault to conquer Beleriand. Sauron wasn't much involved in the planning and will recognize it's not an optimal move, but that's his problem.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Sauron is very much participating though ^^ This was mentioned in one of the last podcast episodes. It makes no sense for Morgoth to not involve his most powerful servant and his minions in his all-out assault to conquer Beleriand. Sauron wasn't much involved in the planning and will recognize it's not an optimal move, but that's his problem.
I thought they said that he wasn't going to be part of it.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
My understanding is that the attack is initiated without Sauron's knowledge, and before he would have preferred, though he is aware that it is in the works. That doesn't necessarily preclude his or his cronies' participation in the battle. Their participation might be limited, but ...
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
It was said that it would be implausible for Sauron not to have a role in the Bragollach. What Corey didn't want is a scene of Morgoth summoning Sauron to give him orders (which Sauron doesn't like), which fits with Morgoth being largely offscreen in this season. So I guess Sauron would be informed about the battle via messenger, which we of course don't have to show if we don't want to :D

Sauron being involved is less costly, in terms of contrivances and explanations we would have to fit in to get the story to make sense, than the alternative and gives us the opportunity to actually tie the reveal of Huan's sad fate into the story of this season - it would be weird if it was just setup for next season without any impact on the current one.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
So, I've been working on some stuff to propose to the hosts about the Dagor Bragollach episodes as it seems like they're going to get into it next session.

I've worked out a timeline of the major events and conflicts of the campaign, which I'll link below. This isn't an exhaustive list of what happens, so there are plenty of elements that aren't on there. This is just a visual representation of the major engagements.


I've divided the two episodes into their four acts, giving us eight stages. Most of these stages will include scenes from things other than the engagements going on at the time, but we can work those out later.

First, we have the attack on Dorthonion. This happens very quickly and is over before most of the other plots in the episode really gather steam. Killing major, named characters in the second act of this episode signals to the audience that we're serious. Anyone could die. Avengers: Infinity War has a good example of this, killing two supporting characters (one of whom being the breakout star of the Thor franchise), and defeating two of the most powerful main characters before the titles have even rolled. We'll also get Barahir covering the flight of his people once he realizes that Ladros is indefensible (perhaps he loses a brother or uncle before this happens). Additional notes: The A-Bros are in a particularly bad spot. The Men of Ladros (including the aged Andreth) are evacuating along the back of the Elvish lines. It is possible that Aegnor and Angrod's death result from their inability to withdraw without leaving the humans to die. Also-also, Barahir is probably hiding in the hills south of the Fens of Serech between the overthrow of Dorthonion and the near-capture of Finrod.

While Finrod and Fingolfin rush their armies to the front to respond, the Feanoreans also muster. Celegorm and Curufin are the first to engage, but are thrown back immediately, driven back to the Pass of Aglon, which is then overrun. Maglor's Gap is similarly assaulted, and Maglor is forced to flee.

Fingolfin arrives at Barad Eithel through the pass to find it beseiged from the east. Men of the house of Hador have taken refuge there after fleeing from Ard-Galen. Fingolfin leads a sortie out onto the field and meets with early success before the attack stalls, but as Episode 12 comes to an end, it becomes clear that the forces of Morgoth only sought to delay him, not defeat him. Once Dorthonion is dealt with and Himring surrounded, Morgoth's forces are able to concentrate on driving Fingolfin back to his fortress. By the end of the episode, the forces of Fingolfin are in full rout. By the midpoint of Episode 13, Fingolfin is back at Barad Eithel, which is surrounded. Galdor's men were crucial in their rear guard action, at the cost of many lives, including Galdor's brother.

Caranthir was present at Maglor's Gap, but when it falls, he retreats to Keep Helevorn. This proves fruitless, as it comes under attack early in Episode 13. As it falls around the episode midpoint, Amras shows up to rescue his fleeing brother and they ride to Amon Hen, where Amras' people have taken refuge along with many of the Greenelves.

Near the end of E12, Finrod has reached the front. His forces engage with an army set to keep watch on Minas Tirith. It's quickly evident that they are outmatched. As E13 opens, his army is routed and he, with a small group, are separated. They attempt to make their way to Minas Tirith without being detected.

As Himring is surrounded, the assault upon it begins in earnest at the beginning of Episode 12. The details can be determined later, but by the midpoint of E13, the assault is repelled and Maglor has joined Maedhros at Himring.

Around the midpoint of E13, Finrod's followers are caught by enemies in the fens. His fate seems assured when Barahir's men crash into the Orcs and drive them back enough for Finrod to escape. He has an appointment with Andreth later.

Fingolfin's duel with Morgoth comes after a period of discomfort-inducing quiet. Finrod's conversation with Andreth, Maedhros looking out at the foe-clotted plains below him, Caranthir and Amras reaching Amon Hen with what's left of their followers. All of these elements will help in creating the sense of hope and despair that surrounds that duel.



There are many details I haven't mentioned or even thought about, and many may change after further discussion. But it's important to at least have an idea how the fight plays out if we are going to decide where E12 ends and E13 begins. Essentially, my vote is to make E12 a "To Be Continued" sort of episode, ending in the midst of dire and unresolved conflict.

I also intend to accompany this chart with maps showing everyone's position at each stage of the conflict, so stay tuned.

Added some additional notes about the fight in Dorthonion.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
As I see it, Sauron's minions are not involved in the initial attack against Dorthonion. The 'Sudden Flame' part of the battle is very much dragon + balrogs + support forces of orcs and trolls and such. There is no reason to suspect that Sauron (or his minions) would sit the entire battle out, though. Sauron can complain afterwards that he finds the timing premature without suggesting that he didn't know about the planned attack.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Maybe, though I think Glaurung will probably appear on different fronts. The war lasts for several months, or at least weeks.
Yeah. Although I perhaps should put some more thought into it, I have imagined that Glaurung begin by attacking the western part of Dorthonion, and then he moves along the front towards the East. Well, as I said, I can certainly see other scenarios - but it looks to me like this fits with your Timeline Nick?
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yeah. Although I perhaps should put some more thought into it, I have imagined that Glaurung begin by attacking the western part of Dorthonion, and then he moves along the front towards the East. Well, as I said, I can certainly see other scenarios - but it looks to me like this fits with your Timeline Nick?
Perfectly. That's more or less what I was thinking as well.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
We didn't discuss the frame in session 5-16, so I'll go ahead and post my notes on it here.

Session 5-16: Season Outline, Dagor Bragollach

30ish-year time-skip between Episodes 9 and 10. Between episodes is a logical place for a time skip. This makes the story of Andreth and Aegnor’s relationship seem finished. Then, Andreth will seem much older for her final discussion with Finrod.

Flames for the Dagor Bragollach will appear at the very end of Episode 11 to prevent the need for a time-skip in the beginning of Episode 12 before the flames reach Dorthonion. There will be shots of Glaurung and the flames destroying Ard-galen at the beginning of Episode 12.

The Dagor Bragollach will not be split into two distinct episodes, but rather Episode 12 will end with a “to be continued … “ situation.

Episode 12 will begin with the destruction of Ladros and Dorthonion and the deaths of major characters to send the message to the audience that this is serious. Glaurung and the Balrogs will be there. Glaurung will blast through lines and fortifications. He will probably not engage in one-on-one confrontations. Morgoth’s armies will split off to try to keep Fingolfin and the Fëanorians apart. They will break through the Pass of Aglon. Angrod and Aegnor cannot retreat without leaving the House of Bëor (including Andreth) open to attack. In a way, Aegnor is dying to save Andreth.

By Act II, Fingolfin and Finrod will have heard news and be mobilizing. Celegorm and Curufin move north, above the Pass of Aglon to keep Morgoth’s forces from moving east. They do not see rescue efforts into Dorthonion as worthwhile. This will be the advent of Warg-riders, Morgoth’s heavy cavalry to oppose Celegorm’s heavy cavalry. Most of the other Fëanorians will remain in their fortresses where they are most effective. Caranthir is in Maglor’s Gap to support Maglor. However, most of his army will be back at Keep Helevorn.

In Act III, Celegorm and Curufin will be driven back through the Pass of Aglon. The House of Hador will retreat from Ard-galen to Barad Eithel, where Fingon is. Most of the House of Bëor will retreat through the Pass of Anach; Barahir and his soldiers will be doing their best to cover their people’s retreat. They might have estel that Finrod or another Eld lord will come to aid them. Fingolfin will have reached Barad Eithel with his army and make a sortie out onto Ard-galen. However, all of Morgoth’s forces around him are only meant to delay him so Morgoth can get into southern Beleriand. Glaurung will begin attacking Maglor’s Gap.

In Act IV, the Fëanorian fortresses will look like they will hold until Glaurung arrives. Glaurung will not attack Himring, but he will break through Maglor’s Gap. Word will reach Amras of the attack. Amras will go towards Keep Helevorn, hoping for refuge for his people. Maglor will retreat towards Himring; Caranthir will retreat towards Helevorn. Fingolfin’s sortie will be stalled. Finrod will reach Minas Tirith where Orodreth is. Barahir will still be up in Dorthonion. The assault against Himring has begun, but Morgoth’s forces have not yet broken through.

Episode 12 ends with Himring under assault, Maglor’s Gap destroyed, Fingolfin forces stalled and realizing they can’t break through, Finrod setting out to fight.

Episode 13

In Act I, Morgoth’s forces will begin to breach some of the defenses of Himring. Glaurung will destroy Helevorn. Celegorm and Curufin are retreating, unable to help Maedhros and unsure if Himring still stands. Finrod will be trying to keep Orcs from breaking through the Pass of Sirion. He sees an opening and tries to break through, personally leading a charge, which leads to him getting cut off. He makes some progress, up to the Fens of Serech, but the Orcs are reusing the earthworks from the Dagor Aglareb. There may be some Balrogs around. Barahir will come down from the hills of Dorthonion to rescue Finrod and enable him to withdraw his army. Boldog might be there, and Gelmir might be captured before Barahir arrives.

In Act II, the assault on Himring is repelled to the point where they are not a threat.

Act III will be the breath before the plunge. Finrod will give Barahir his ring. Amras will show up at Keep Helevorn, find Glaurung, and escape with Caranthir. Fingolfin will have retreated, Himring will stand. Fingolfin will have a final conversation with Fingon. Major captains of the villains will move back up to Thangorodrim.

Act IV will focus on Fingolfin’s duel. He will ride out to Thangorodrim like Oromë. He will deal Morgoth seven wounds. He will be able to accomplish Captain-America-level acrobatics and wound Morgoth in various places.

Maedhros, Barahir, and Fingolfin will be the most successful at the end of things. There could be a moment of realization between Maglor and Maedhros like the moment between Maedhros and Fingolfin at the Kinslaying; Maglor will be happy that Himring stood, but Maedhros will realize how badly things must have gone for everyone else.

The Haladin will not be fighting. They may not know what is going on in time, may not have soldiers, and have been tasked with taking care of younger members of other houses like Húrin and Huor.

Emeldir will be leading the refugees of the House of Bëor. She will get Narsil from some of Barahir’s scouts.

The final moment between Finrod and Andreth will happen in Act III or IV. Finrod may be offered his brother’s sword and give it to Andreth instead.

Huan’s prophecy will be overheard by Glaurung in Season 4. Almost-confrontation between Huan and Draugluin in the Dagor Bragollach.

Círdan will interact with Finrod and Fingolfin. Bëor will not visit the sea. Fingolfin may talk to Círdan as part of his big push.



We will discuss the frame next time. We should focus on limiting it to Gandalf’s interactions with a few people.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Nice!

Question: Angrod and Aegnor are killed by Balrogs, right (to meet the Balrog Rule) in episode 12? But in episode 13, I can't see any known character being killed by a Balrog, even though they can possibly be present at the Fens. Just checking here, to make things clear: we don't need more deaths by Balrog, since it's the same battle? It's the split into two episodes that makes me slightly uncertain, but as I write I'm getting more and more convinced that we don't have to kill more named characters.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
Galdor also dies where the Balrogs are, and Bregor dies somewhere in Dorthonion - I remembered only at the end of the session, but we should at least show Baragund and Belegund as well as young Morwen and Rian on screen. Baragund and Belegund will be part of Barahir's outlaw band that we could use more characters than a Barahir-Beren-Gorlim triangle for. Morwen and Rian are children that follow auntie Emeldir as they're fleeing Dorthonion; it's still unclear how much interaction we will have between the Beorian warriors and civilians during the Bragollach, but I would like a goodbye scene between Barahir and Emeldir as well as Baragund/Belegund and their daughters.
 

Alcarlótë

Active Member
Even more than for having the Warg Riders as heavy cavalry (instead of the skirmishing and scouting light cavalry we saw in the LotR movies), I'm very excited for the Draugluin/Huan scene o: It invokes a special kind of fearful anticipation for viewers when they know that Draugluin is looking for Huan and that Huan is loyal and brave enough to sacrifice himself no matter what. It will look dire, especially because we have to keep in mind that Huan's Doom only mentions him dying after encountering the mightiest wolf - that he will kill that wolf in return is something noone can count on happening. In the worst case scenario, he merely occupies that wolf for a bit until he is slain.

My first intuition would be to have the battle on (former) Ard-Galen like this:

  • Celegorm and Curufin ride out to flank the armies attacking the Feanorian lands
  • They want to charge a contigent of orc infantry, but notice the incoming Warg Riders and prepare a counter-charge against them
  • After the Noldor cavalry has first engaged the Warg Riders and as they are preparing their next manoeuvre, Draugluin and some other werewolves arrive
  • The Warg Riders already give the Noldor cavalry a lot of trouble thanks to their mounts' aggressiveness and ability to attack independently of their rider; with the nearby orc infantry approaching and the werewolves appearing, the situation looks dire for the Noldor
  • Draugluin sees Huan and begins seeking him out; Huan is ready to answer his challenge
  • Celegorm and Curufin want to retreat; Celegorm commands Huan to stay with him and organizes the retreat, sending some riders to intercept the Werewolves and stop a possible pursuit
  • Curufin forms a rearguard against the Warg Riders, and before the orc infantry arrives they manage a retreat through the Pass of Aglon - orderly, but with heavy losses in the two rearguards
An aspect of this I particularly like is the ambiguity in the reasons for Celegorm's actions: When the werewolves appear, his decision to retreat is militarily sound and he does an important and good job organizing it, but considering he will flee all the way to Nargothrond it looks convenient that this manoeuvre also gets himself and Huan out of danger. Did he do it more to avoid Huan's Doom or for his own safety? If the former is true, is it right to keep Huan from willingly sacrificing himself and instead sacrificing many of his soldiers just so Huan lives? Does he value Huan just as a companion true of heart or also, calculatingly, as an important, non-replaceable asset? So many interesting aspects that will help Celegorm be more than someone that kidnaps Luthien, usurps Nargothrond and kinslays "because he's a bad guy" from here on out. He is going to be a bad guy next season, but it would be good to give him some more depth before that; Curufin has Celebrimbor and the loss of his wife for that purpose.
 
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Patrick Graham

New Member
Hello good people, what would you think of the idea that Celegorm & Curufin and the refugees of Himlad/Aglon are driven to the borders of Doriath and are denied passage through by the march wardens. They then attempt to escape via nan dungortheb only to incur many losses among their people and as a last resort have to travel the long way around to Nargothrond. This will help the viewer to understand the great enmity the C brothers have for Thingol & Doriath which will bear fruit in later Seasons and maybe also show some heroics from Huan as well.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Nice!

Question: Angrod and Aegnor are killed by Balrogs, right (to meet the Balrog Rule) in episode 12? But in episode 13, I can't see any known character being killed by a Balrog, even though they can possibly be present at the Fens. Just checking here, to make things clear: we don't need more deaths by Balrog, since it's the same battle? It's the split into two episodes that makes me slightly uncertain, but as I write I'm getting more and more convinced that we don't have to kill more named characters.
We discussed this issue and realized that there will be named (if minor) characters in the Fingolfin/Fingon/Galdor host. We decided that losing one or more of them to balrogs will satisfy the Balrog Rule, when coupled with the deaths of Angrod and Aegnor in the Part 1 episode.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Hello good people, what would you think of the idea that Celegorm & Curufin and the refugees of Himlad/Aglon are driven to the borders of Doriath and are denied passage through by the march wardens. They then attempt to escape via nan dungortheb only to incur many losses among their people and as a last resort have to travel the long way around to Nargothrond. This will help the viewer to understand the great enmity the C brothers have for Thingol & Doriath which will bear fruit in later Seasons and maybe also show some heroics from Huan as well.
I like the idea, and I think we could definitely show them being denied passage through Doriath. I’m not sure about having them then try to go through Nan Dungortheb, though. I’m concerned that we’ll already have shown two journeys through Nan Dungortheb by this point in the season, and we’ll be showing Beren in there at the beginning of next season.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Galdor also dies where the Balrogs are, and Bregor dies somewhere in Dorthonion - I remembered only at the end of the session, but we should at least show Baragund and Belegund as well as young Morwen and Rian on screen. Baragund and Belegund will be part of Barahir's outlaw band that we could use more characters than a Barahir-Beren-Gorlim triangle for. Morwen and Rian are children that follow auntie Emeldir as they're fleeing Dorthonion; it's still unclear how much interaction we will have between the Beorian warriors and civilians during the Bragollach, but I would like a goodbye scene between Barahir and Emeldir as well as Baragund/Belegund and their daughters.
So we decided to kill off Galdor at the Dagor Bragollach?
 
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