Session 6-04: Villains

MithLuin said:
Correct, the Girdle of Melian will prevent any attack from penetrating into Doriath. Presumably this attack is an attempt to figure out how strong the defenses are. So, from the villains' perspective, it's more recon for a future attack, rather than an earnest effort to invade Doriath.

As far as the timing goes, the story takes place over multiple years. I'm not worried about finding a 3 week window to move troops from Angband to the borders of Doriath.
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And also for the surviving orcs to return back, should the information of the attack's failure be needed to reach Angband for any possible narrative purpose. (Retuns taking as much as the journey there is often forgotten in movies, to my experience. A common timeline continuity error which Tolkien put much effort into avoiding in his books. Not that all of a return must be shown, but it cannot be shown to be immediate.) E.g. should it be decided, that Boldog does survive the battle - for whateve reason - he should have been away from Angband for over one month and a half and as such in need of being briefed about what the current situation in Angband is.

Communist times' bad quality road paving seems in style for an orc road imho:
 
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Recall that Angband is at peak power at this stage of the First Age. They have enslaved elves and all the knowledge of Melkor and Mairon behind their activities. I am not saying that an orc road should look like a dwarf road, but it needn't be shoddy or have poor construction. It's allowed to be engineered. Maybe even the kind of engineering that carves out the hills to make the road level.
 
MithLuin said:
Recall that Angband is at peak power at this stage of the First Age. They have enslaved elves and all the knowledge of Melkor and Mairon behind their activities. I am not saying that an orc road should look like a dwarf road, but it needn't be shoddy or have poor construction. It's allowed to be engineered. Maybe even the kind of engineering that carves out the hills to make the road level.
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Agreed, but think it should not be pretty. I think it should be economic, doing the job, be fast to build, but nothing more. Also it is build in haste. It is build by workes who do not care for their work, they have a plan to fullfill and nothig more - just the attitude of a worker in a communist work brigade - feeling no "ownership" of their work - their heart is not in it.
 
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Aestetics are important! But still i think it probably is neither as sophisticated as a roman road, nor as uniform as that soviet road which obviously used uniform stones of industrial mass-production.More likely the orcs used local stones, possibly even from torn down human houses as has been speculated before.
 
How do these orcs communicate wirh Angband then? Do they have runners, message shouters? Flying messengers maybe, bats or vampires?

I believe even by foot a marathon-orc might reach Angband in about 4 days.
 
Haerangil said:
How do these orcs communicate wirh Angband then? Do they have runners, message shouters? Flying messengers maybe, bats or vampires?

I believe even by foot a marathon-orc might reach Angband in about 4 days.
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I would love runners. Not one all the way, as a "relay chain". That could be quite fast. For "normal" messages. Bats might be carying some secrets messages, from spies and secret agents.
 
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We resolved several issues in Thursday evening's podcast discussion.

Sauron will be granted Dorthonion as a 'fiefdom' by Morgoth, presumably as a reward for conquering Tol Sirion. So, the place is his responsibility and his to use, but he does not personally live there (until he retreats there at his defeat). His role is compared to the 'Sherriff of Nottingham.' Therefore, the story of the Outlaw band and their antagonism with the forces of Angband will center on the efforts of Thuringwethil and Gorgol, with roving bands of orcs as antagonists to the outlaws. This allows for distance between Thuringwethil and Sauron, fueling their eventual falling out.

We will not be including the part of the story where Sauron sends an army of orcs to hunt down solo Beren in Dorthonion. The villain motivation behind this action is difficult to swallow. Either Sauron or Thuringwethil giving that order at this stage of the story does not seem to fit. Also, delaying Beren's departure from Dorthonion to reach Doriath does not help the pacing of the season. This does not mean we can't include elements of that part of the story in the way we tell the story of the Outlaw Band. We will just be telling that while Beren has people to talk to, rather than relying on his silent interactions with his animal friends. Beren will depart Dorthonion after killing Gorgol.

We are not including Boldog's assault on Doriath, nor are we emphasizing the construction of the road in the Pass of Anach this season. There was an expressed preference for the road to be newly constructed in the Túrin season. So, we will need something else for Thingol to be doing, and we will need another explanation as to why Beren does not take the Pass of Anach when he leaves Dorthonion. Also, Boldog's death is slated for the Fens of Serech at the end of the Nirnaeth. He can be slain by Húrin or Huor (but preferably Húrin).
 
MithLuin said:
We are not including Boldog's assault on Doriath, nor are we emphasizing the construction of the road in the Pass of Anach this season. There was an expressed preference for the road to be newly constructed in the Túrin season. So, we will need something else for Thingol to be doing, and we will need another explanation as to why Beren does not take the Pass of Anach when he leaves Dorthonion. Also, Boldog's death is slated for the Fens of Serech at the end of the Nirnaeth. He can be slain by Húrin or Huor (but preferably Húrin).
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I'm not quite sure that having the road be newly constructed in the Túrin season is a good idea; the books say that Dorthonion is a dangerous place to travel during that time (approx. F.A. 490), even for Orcs and the only reason they go through Dorthonion is speed; making a road would mean more Orcs in Taur-nu-Fuin in a single region when there's no reason for them to want to be there.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
I'm not quite sure that having the road be newly constructed in the Túrin season is a good idea; the books say that Dorthonion is a dangerous place to travel during that time (approx. F.A. 490), even for Orcs and the only reason they go through Dorthonion is speed; making a road would mean more Orcs in Taur-nu-Fuin in a single region when there's no reason for them to want to be there.
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MithLuin, road construction can take many years, maybe the orcs are just leveling the ground there, making some tunnels and bridges - making a whole road to Angband could take several decades up to half a century - they do have magic but still no heavy duty machines. So there could still be fortification of the Pass going on and as such the Pass being full of orc activities even before the road itself is build. Also the Pass is a vital place to be fortified if anyone wants to make sure no unauthorized people get out from or into Dorthonion. We could have some smaller forts being build there like the one above Cirith Ungol in TLOTR. So Beren might see the smoke from orcs burning the trees there and plenty of them transporting building stones in that direction from afar and wisely abandon this route even before coming near enough to see what exactly the orcs are doing.
 
Odola said:
MithLuin, road construction can take many years, maybe the orcs are just leveling the ground there, making some tunnels and bridges - making a whole road to Angband could take several decades up to half a century - they do have magic but still no heavy duty machines. So there could still be fortification of the Pass going on and as such the Pass being full of orc activities even before the road itself is build. Also the Pass is a vital place to be fortified if anyone wants to make sure no unauthorized people get out from or into Dorthonion. We could have some smaller forts being build there like the one above Cirith Ungol in TLOTR. So Beren might see the smoke from orcs burning the trees there and plenty of them transporting building stones in that direction from afar and wisely abandon this route even before coming near enough to see what exactly the orcs are doing.
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That road has to be completed no later than F.A. 465, since Sauron comes to Taur-nu-Fuin after getting his ass kicked and turns the forest into a place of terror (more than it was anyways). He'd cause trouble for even the Orcs there and disrupt construction.
 
Well, the road is not a relevant story element.I agree with that! So it is not REALLY important to show how or when it is built as long as it is somehow there when it is necessary.

I also agree Boldogs raid on Doriath and him being slain by Thingol is NOT an important story element either.It is all but a sidenote and even in the book it is , well a rumour.

It would have been nice to have em in the plot, or at last give a nod.But important? No.
 
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Odola said:
MithLuin, road construction can take many years, maybe the orcs are just leveling the ground there, making some tunnels and bridges - making a whole road to Angband could take several decades up to half a century - they do have magic but still no heavy duty machines. So there could still be fortification of the Pass going on and as such the Pass being full of orc activities even before the road itself is build. Also the Pass is a vital place to be fortified if anyone wants to make sure no unauthorized people get out from or into Dorthonion. We could have some smaller forts being build there like the one above Cirith Ungol in TLOTR. So Beren might see the smoke from orcs burning the trees there and plenty of them transporting building stones in that direction from afar and wisely abandon this route even before coming near enough to see what exactly the orcs are doing.
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Point of order, most estimates seem to suggest that the Romans could build roads at a rate of 1.5-2 yards per man per day. That means that 1000 guys could get a 300 mile (480 km) road done in less than a year.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
I'm not quite sure that having the road be newly constructed in the Túrin season is a good idea; the books say that Dorthonion is a dangerous place to travel during that time (approx. F.A. 490), even for Orcs and the only reason they go through Dorthonion is speed; making a road would mean more Orcs in Taur-nu-Fuin in a single region when there's no reason for them to want to be there.
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That is possible. The exact location of the road may have to be re-evaluated.
 
Clarification concerning the 'road' situation.

What is wanted is for orc excursions into Dimbar to be a NEW problem when Túrin and Beleg are patrolling the region. If there was a fancy road in place well before the Nirnaeth, that would imply that orc excursions into the area had been an ongoing problem since well before Túrin was born. Therefore, we do not intend to show the 'threat' of the orc road to Dimbar in this season, and will reveal that threat at a later time. I agree that orcs could still patrol the pass or prevent anyone else from travelling there, but they don't have a full road in place at this time. That will be a later development.

I should point out that there is an overlap in the chronology for Seasons 6 and 7 - Season 7 will begin 'during' Season 6, and thus will show some items that could have been happening contemporaneously with Season 6 events, but will not be part of the Season 6 story. So far, that is simply the fostering of Húrin and Huor in Gondolin, but it may involve Glaurung or other issues as well. If Sauron departs over the mountains well before the end of the season, some Easterling content will no doubt be a stepping back in time as well.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Point of order, most estimates seem to suggest that the Romans could build roads at a rate of 1.5-2 yards per man per day. That means that 1000 guys could get a 300 mile (480 km) road done in less than a year.
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Yes, but where? In an area where they have no infrastructure yet? No established supply chains. No easy access to huge amounts of water? In a difficult mountainois terrain ? And enemy bands attaking them on their way there? All factors to deal with before starting a big construction project. So imho it is believable for enough of orcs holding the pass already in preparation of the road build to make unpassable for Beren long before the road itself is to be completed.
 
Odola said:
Yes, but where? In an area where they have no infrastructure yet? No established supply chains. No easy access to huge amounts of water? In a difficult mountainois terrain ? And enemy bands attaking them on their way there? All factors to deal with before starting a big construction project. So imho it is believable for enough of orcs holding the pass already in preparation of the road build to make unpassable for Beren long before the road itself is to be completed.
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It is a matter of record that the Roman expeditionary forces built roads and bridges while on the march in foreign lands.

So to answer your questions:

Everywhere they went.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.
Yes.

To your final point: Sure. But the point I'm making is that they needn't be engaged in or even preparing for road building during S06 for the road to be complete by the time Turin is on the scene.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
It is a matter of record that the Roman expeditionary forces built roads and bridges while on the march in foreign lands.
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This is probably an average. Most Roman roads I know of run over straight patches of land.

But:

VIA CLAUDIA AUGUSTA II | eurocycle.at

Cycling along original romanic paths - as reward the region around Lake Garda
en.radreisen.at en.radreisen.at

"The Via Claudia Augusta, completed within 60 years, is an exemplary sample of Roman construction and a masterpiece of antique engineering."

So building an Alpine road could take the Romans over half a century.

And:
As MithLuin said season 6 and 7 overlspp timewise. We need the pass being taken for Beren not to go anywhere near it. He does not even need to go near enough there to see what the orcs are actually doing there. Enough of us to see that orcs are busy there.
 
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Odola said:
This is probably an average. Most Roman roads I know of run over straight patches of land.

But:

VIA CLAUDIA AUGUSTA II | eurocycle.at

Cycling along original romanic paths - as reward the region around Lake Garda
en.radreisen.at en.radreisen.at

"The Via Claudia Augusta, completed within 60 years, is an exemplary sample of Roman construction and a masterpiece of antique engineering."

So building an Alpine road could take the Romans over half a century.

And:
As MithLuin said season 6 and 7 overlspp timewise. We need the pass being taken for Beren not to go anywhere near it. He does not even need to go near enough there to see what the orcs are actually doing there. Enough of us to see that orcs are busy there.
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There just isn't a comparison between the Via Claudia Augusta and a hypothetical road through the Pass of Anach. Not in distance or terrain certainly.

Most importantly, I think we can all agree that it isn't important to decide what's going on at the Pass of Anach to have Beren not go that way.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
There just isn't a comparison between the Via Claudia Augusta and a hypothetical road through the Pass of Anach. Not in distance or terrain certainly.

Most importantly, I think we can all agree that it isn't important to decide what's going on at the Pass of Anach to have Beren not go that way.
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There has to be enough going on there for him to see from afar that it makes no sense to even attempt it.

(And the road is not hypothetical but the only named orc road that I happen to know of. The mountains are high there - it is not that far from Gondolin actually - and the road does have some lenght too.)
 
I wouldn't try a heavily guarded pass, road or no road.I certainly wouldn't try nan dungoetheb either but i believe he puts all his luck on Dor dinen and... well is still to dangerously close to dungortheb and almost gets sucked in..
 
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