Session 6-07: Beren and Lúthien, Part 1

[MithLuin]

Session 6:07 will be held on Thursday March 10th at 10 PM Eastern Time (*cough* perhaps more like 10:30 if the past two sessions have been an indicator)

We will (finally!) begin discussing the story of Beren and Lúthien! Our goal and focus in this initial discussion is to map out their story to the point where Thingol issues the quest to Beren. So, for the purposes of discussing in this thread, please try to focus on the beginning of their story and make suggestions as to how we can tell that part of it.

Naturally, we will also want to think about how to break the story up into episodes - how far are we getting with each piece, so we can get a feel for pacing. We don't want to rush through the set up...but likewise, we do not want to 'squeeze' the later episodes, either. So, consider the most efficient, impactful ways to introduce the audience to these characters and their story - what is essential to convey at the beginning of the season?

Should time permit, we will also discuss Thingol and Doriath. That seems unlikely, so to keep things neat and organized, go ahead and continue the Thingol discussion in the previous thread, and keep this thread focused solely on the early Beren and Lúthien stories.

 

[MithLuin]

For the early part of the Beren and Lúthien story, we will be telling their stories...separately. And then throughout the season, we will frequently be separating our main characters. Lúthien does not join Beren in the quest until after the fall of Tol Sirion, and of course she does not join him on the Hunt for the Wolf. So, it might be helpful to think about what parts of the story will actually feature them on screen together, and then think about how we build up to those moments.

In this early portion, we establish Beren in Dorthonion with the Outlaw band, and Lúthien in Doriath with her family and people (as per usual).

There is a lot going on at the beginning of this story, so it will likely take 3 full episodes to bring Beren across the Girdle of Melian. There, he can collapse in exhaustion and be found sleeping by a curious Lúthien.

Then, we get a full episode of them together. Their meeting, their love story, Lúthien leading Beren before Thingol, the assignment of the Quest.

They are immediately separated again. Beren goes to Nargothrond, recruits Finrod's help, is imprisoned in Tol Sirion. Meanwhile, Lúthien is detained in Doriath, escapes only to be detained in Nargothrond, and escapes to rescue the prisoners from Tol Sirion.

Both of these arcs end with Beren and Lúthien united, and that is (roughly) the halfway point of the season.

The third arc is them questing together (with maybe a blip of Beren trying to strike out on his own). And then the final arc for their story is the aftermath of the Quest - Beren One-Hand, Thingol accepting them in Doriath, their marriage...only to be interrupted by more separation - The Hunt for the Wolf, the deaths of Carcaroth, Huan, and Beren. Lúthien's death...and the return of Beren and Lúthien to (mortal) life in Beleriand.


So, at this point, we're just discussing the first part. We need to introduce both of them, and bring their story to the point where Thingol issues the Quest, and Beren accepts it and leaves Doriath. I think Beren's story is more straightforward. There's a lot going on, he loses his father and his companions, he kills some orcs, he flees south and fights some spiders....it's a very active plotline, with a lot happening.

Lúthien's story at this time is more nebulous. What is her reaction to the Dagor Bragollach? To the death of the High King of the Noldor? To the fall of Dorthonion? What does she think this means for Doriath, and do others view things the same way as her?

 

[MithLuin]

I understand that suggesting we wait until Episode 4 to hear 'Tinuviel, Tinuviel!' is asking for a lot of time for the setup of this story. That might not work. But here is why I am suggesting that Beren won't reach Doriath until the end of Episode 3. We've...planned a lot of material for the early part of this season! Here is what I think is currently happening in the first three episodes:



This is, of course, all subject to change, and I am awaiting some clarification of Lúthien's early story. Presumably she's not just going to be dancing in the woods for 4 episodes while Beren has...all of that...happening. So, I am guessing it will take us about two episodes to get through the left half of this, and then the right half is episode 3. But...I really don't see getting through all of this in only two episodes, to be honest.

 

[kanji_d]

I do agree that there's a lot in those first two episodes, but it definitely seems like less than two episodes' worth of content. Maybe once we add the Luthien story in it'll pad it a little more, because we do need some establishment of her current status and desires.

Perhaps it might work to make Episode 1 more of a prologue? It does seem weird to have an episode that doesn't focus on our two main characters at all but (a) it lets us spend a little more time on the side plots that need resolving without interrupting them, and (b) it means that the pacing of the main plot can be a little more even in Episodes 2 and 3 (for instance, we don't need to come up with a full Beren among the Outlaws plot for Episode 1, we just need to establish that they're there, so that we can jump into the Gorlim drama for Episode 2).

 

[Odola]

Lúthien's story at this time is more nebulous. What is her reaction to the Dagor Bragollach? To the death of the High King of the Noldor? To the fall of Dorthonion? What does she think this means for Doriath, and do others view things the same way as her?

I am for the previously discussed ideas abot Luthien feeling increasingly "out of place", "stuck", "uneasy", asking question she never bothered to ask before. Might be that meeting the Green Elves refugees starts her asking question about Doriath "neutrality" being the correct stance to take - if not for her kingdom then at least for her herself personally. (And do I insist of the spinning wheel being used as a challenge to her conception of time and the way how to use it productively and efficiently.)

 

[MithLuin]

To clarify, the Green Elf refugees entered Doriath at the end of season 3, so have been present for quite some time. If we are going to see new refugees seeking out Doriath at this time, they are likely the Sindar of Mithrim.

 

[Kathrin]

That outline makes a lot of sense! It also makes for a good transition out of the Sauron plot, since his necromancy project kinda can be left on the note on him killing Thuringwethil, & his edain antagonists are killed and Beren moves south. It makes for a good intro of Beren too, being a successor to Barahir & a main antagonist to Sauron at first and a real power in chaotic post-fall of minas tirith Beleriand, it isn't just "hey we need to get our love interest south, give us a minute".

Maybe it would be good to have a little montage "tour de Beleriand" (our of the part of Beleriand which will appear in this season) in ep. 1, a sort of birds eye view after the dagor bragollach. I think it would be good to remind the audience how that part of the world was left & maybe have a small moment of grief, but jinx, no time for niceties, Sauron goes into attack mode on the last barrier maintaining a bit of peace. So maybe a tiny check in in doriath, nargothrond would be good. Nargothrond is still busy with observing the siege at tol sirion, maybe sending reinforcements etc. getting a message from orodreth or sth. and we could already see refugees among the grey elves and the edain maybe fleeing, generally ppl trying to recover from what happened. & I think the doriath plot needs to start from the beginning too, especially to set up their place in (or probably more outside) the war, and daeron's relationship to luthien.

 

[kanji_d]

Maybe it would be good to have a little montage "tour de Beleriand" (our of the part of Beleriand which will appear in this season) in ep. 1, a sort of birds eye view after the dagor bragollach. I think it would be good to remind the audience how that part of the world was left & maybe have a small moment of grief, but jinx, no time for niceties, Sauron goes into attack mode on the last barrier maintaining a bit of peace. So maybe a tiny check in in doriath, nargothrond would be good. Nargothrond is still busy with observing the siege at tol sirion, maybe sending reinforcements etc. getting a message from orodreth or sth. and we could already see refugees among the grey elves and the edain maybe fleeing, generally ppl trying to recover from what happened. & I think the doriath plot needs to start from the beginning too, especially to set up their place in (or probably more outside) the war, and daeron's relationship to luthien.

This is sort of what I was thinking with my prologue idea, just spreading it over the whole episode rather than a single montage. I wasn't trying to suggest that we just don't mention Beren or Luthien in Episode 1, but rather that we don't focus on it. Here's kind of what I was thinking.

 

[Kathrin]

This is sort of what I was thinking with my prologue idea, just spreading it over the whole episode rather than a single montage. I wasn't trying to suggest that we just don't mention Beren or Luthien in Episode 1, but rather that we don't focus on it. Here's kind of what I was thinking.
View attachment 4081

yeah that feels good to me for ep one, i just wonder if we run into timing problems postponing the sauron/tol sirion plot into ep 2, but i personally kinda like the idea of almost giving a fakeout moment where it seems as if our protagonists are bouncing back from the onslaught of the bragollach (almost an aurë entuvala moment), and then boom, necromancy, fuck you guys. & then beren & luthien will be this delayed (und unlikely) eucatastrophe of course later.

 

[MithLuin]

There should be one key event in each episode. For the first episode, it will be Sauron capturing Minas Tirith on Tol Sirion.

For the second, it would be Gorlim giving up the location of the outlaw band.

So, we are stuck with our climactic events for the first two episodes happening with our two 'first billed' actors being off screen. But I strongly agree that both Beren and Lúthien should feature in both episodes.

We cannot delay the fall of Minas Tirith past the first episode, no. Too much depends upon that happening.

 

[Kathrin]

wouldn't it it be possible though to switch gorlim & tol sirion, technically? realistically this all doesn't happen in single consecutive days anyway, & they are two separate projects of Sauron's?

Or alternatively do the false hope prologue idea & have the fall of minas tirith be the catastrophe at the end of the episode, and only zoom in on sauron & go into the backstage stuff in ep. 2, which would then lead into the thuringwethil/sauron plot too. I agree that it would be good to keep the climactic moments to their separate episodes, but we can vary what function & place a climactic moment has in an episode, right?

I think having a part of the first episode dedicated to the remains of the central beleriand leaguer (or not, in doriath's case) & how tol sirion being taken is really the last bits of scraped together resistance being crushed (apart from the underdogs of the outlaws, who will then become important) gives it importance and also sets the theme for the season where beren & luthien emerge from the desperation & chaos. I'm not sure starting primarily with the battle itself and Sauron has the same effect.

 

[MithLuin]

In our story, no. Because Gorlim is ensnared by Thuingwethil, who is in Dorthonion on Sauron's orders. Sauron sends her there after being granted Dorthonion as a fiefdom-esque territory by Morgoth...which is a reward for the capture of Tol Sirion.

So, some of these events need to happen in a particular order.

But others are flexible, and where we break the episode is definitely flexible.

I do like the 'Beleriand Overview' idea as a good way to orient the audience in episode 1.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

This is sort of what I was thinking with my prologue idea, just spreading it over the whole episode rather than a single montage. I wasn't trying to suggest that we just don't mention Beren or Luthien in Episode 1, but rather that we don't focus on it. Here's kind of what I was thinking.
View attachment 4081

The only change I would make to this would be to move Celegorm and Curufin's rescue of the Refugees to the second episode. The capture of Minas Tirith will wind up as the episode climax, which would not leave us much time for the rescue.

 

[Kathrin]

I think I like that though. They will go south an ep before Beren, kind of starting a general wave of ppl escaping, and maybe they can, skirting by doriath, also be antagonised alittle/shut out by them and/or be encountered by scouts/messengers from Nargothrond trying to find out what's happening, so the "where is everyone at" prologue can continue relatively organically when c&c and the minas tirith ppl catch up with southerners, but we don't need to do exposition e same time or rehash the ending of s5 before they can distribute blame, or argue, or grieve (or whatever they're gonna do).

Basically in that version ep. 1 would be: "Oh fuck that was a bad war huh, let's regrou- oh oh oh nO" , ep2: how did THAT happen?? (among the heroes while fleeing and behind the scenes of the baddies) +Sauron cracking down on barahirs gang, and then ep. 3 would be Beren flees and Sauron & Thuringwethil have their quarrel, which ends in a bitter victory for Sauron and a rollercoaster with a sudden turn to faerie in the end for Beren.

what i can't see yet in either version is how either the dwarf plot or the doriathrim court + daeron & luthien's friendship work here in the beginning parallel to the rest, bc they have to be more isolated ofc, but i can imagine how they could feel a bit like filler. doriath reacting to grey elves fleeing like discussed before would make sense, they are parallel to orodreth's and c&c's ppl fleeing but have no concrete place to go. but is there a personal story of king, queen, princess and court bard that ties into that?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I think I like that though. They will go south an ep before Beren, kind of starting a general wave of ppl escaping, and maybe they can, skirting by doriath, also be antagonised alittle/shut out by them and/or be encountered by scouts/messengers from Nargothrond trying to find out what's happening, so the "where is everyone at" prologue can continue relatively organically when c&c and the minas tirith ppl catch up with southerners, but we don't need to do exposition e same time or rehash the ending of s5 before they can distribute blame, or argue, or grieve (or whatever they're gonna do).

Basically in that version ep. 1 would be: "Oh fuck that was a bad war huh, let's regrou- oh oh oh nO" , ep2: how did THAT happen?? (among the heroes while fleeing and behind the scenes of the baddies) +Sauron cracking down on barahirs gang, and then ep. 3 would be Beren flees and Sauron & Thuringwethil have their quarrel, which ends in a bitter victory for Sauron and a rollercoaster with a sudden turn to faerie in the end for Beren.

what i can't see yet in either version is how either the dwarf plot or the doriathrim court + daeron & luthien's friendship work here in the beginning parallel to the rest, bc they have to be more isolated ofc, but i can imagine how they could feel a bit like filler. doriath reacting to grey elves fleeing like discussed before would make sense, they are parallel to orodreth's and c&c's ppl fleeing but have no concrete place to go. but is there a personal story of king, queen, princess and court bard that ties into that?

Perhaps with the Dwarves they happen to arrive for a pilgrimage when the refugees from Tol Sirion do?

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Love the Tour de Beleriand idea!

 

[MithLuin]

Perhaps with the Dwarves they happen to arrive for a pilgrimage when the refugees from Tol Sirion do?

I think the Nauglamir will be too new for pilgrimages at this point in the story. That element is more likely to show up in Túrin's time.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

I think the Nauglamir will be too new for pilgrimages at this point in the story. That element is more likely to show up in Túrin's time.

By Túrin's time, hadn't Nargothrond been sealed except for patrols (again one of Curufin's ideas that turned out to be correct in the long run)?

 

[MithLuin]

There's different levels of sealed. Trade continued - Nargothrond isn't likely to be entirely self-sufficient. Nargothrond is less secret than Gondolin, and less sealed than Doriath...and we have shown dwarven trading caravans entering Doriath multiple times since the Girdle went up. Regardless of whether or not the dwarven pilgrimage idea makes sense in later seasons, we can't use it yet, because we are only introducing the Nauglamir for the first time now. It's too new to have that kind of renown.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

There's different levels of sealed. Trade continued - Nargothrond isn't likely to be entirely self-sufficient. Nargothrond is less secret than Gondolin, and less sealed than Doriath...and we have shown dwarven trading caravans entering Doriath multiple times since the Girdle went up. Regardless of whether or not the dwarven pilgrimage idea makes sense in later seasons, we can't use it yet, because we are only introducing the Nauglamir for the first time now. It's too new to have that kind of renown.

So how is Nargothrond unplottable (to use Harry Potter terminology) to Morgoth if it isn't self-sufficient? He's surely seen people coming in and out.