Session 6-07: Beren and Lúthien, Part 1

[MithLuin]

Morgoth does know the general vicinity of Nargothrond. The exact location of the gates remains a mystery. Nargothrond can keep that secret by keeping spies out of the guarded plain. You can't grow plants underground. So even if it is self-sufficient, there would still be elves coming and going from the woods to Nargothrond. At no point is it a sealed -off fortress.

 

[Kathrin]

I think the whole realm of west Beleriand, so to speak, probably wouldn't just be Nargothrond, a few edain villages and that's it right? A) around Nargothrond is a large wooded area, so from the air it is extremely hard to spot ppl, cave entrances, even villages maybe. b) there can be a lot of settlements over-all in south-west Beleriand that don't themselves know where Nargothrond is, but some of them might still have agreements where they have a trading place where "Nargothrond" buys sth, but it will be collected and delivered covertly. I imagine Nargothrond is somewhat like an obscured spider somewhere in a big net that can pull on strings etc, definitely is an actor in the region, but there must be a lot of delegation going on governance/organisation-wise. So there might be a bunch of settlements/targets for morgoth in that whole part of the continent, and he might be suspicious about that big forest hiding Nargothrond, but it's all too big and obscured to really get an idea.

 

[MithLuin]

Okay, so...if the first episode only has Beren and Lúthien playing background roles, and the second episode focuses on Gorlim, so Beren is still playing only a minor role, maybe it will make sense that Lúthien is only doing minor things in Doriath during this time? I'm still not super thrilled with leaving our main protagonists waiting on Episode 3 to have a storyline devoted to them.



And I do like the idea of Sindar refugees from the Dagor Bragollach entering Doriath. I'm just not quite sure what to do with their story. Will they play any significant role later in the season?

 

[Odola]

And I do like the idea of Sindar refugees from the Dagor Bragollach entering Doriath. I'm just not quite sure what to do with their story. Will they play any significant role later in the season?

A background for Thingol whenever he is shown reacting to some news about Luthien so that he is shown being doing something sensible in the meantime? A way to introduce (Luthien's future daughter-in-law) Nimloth? Some of those being the ones following Beren and Luthien to Ossiriand after their return from Mandos?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

A background for Thingol whenever he is shown reacting to some news about Luthien so that he is shown being doing something sensible in the meantime? A way to introduce (Luthien's future daughter-in-law) Nimloth? Some of those being the ones following Beren and Luthien to Ossiriand after their return from Mandos?

You could also throw in Oropher (Thranduil's father), since he's supposed to be Sindarin.

 

[Octoburn]

You could also throw in Oropher (Thranduil's father), since he's supposed to be Sindarin.

Outside of the discussions of Oropher in the S4 frame, the only thing I could find of Oropher in the session notes was this, from early in Season 3:

Oropher and Thranduil?
- introduce during Fall of Doriath
- Oropher as one of Dior’s people
- Oropher introduced with the Nauglimir story

I'd have to relisten to the episode to remember, but these seem like 3 different suggestions, and we never settled on one?

EDIT: Oropher could also be one of the elves released from the Isle when Luthien and Huan take Sauron out of the picture. Could he be one of the elves who set out with Finrod? Nah, they all die.

Part of my idea for the Thingol story is that when Luthien escapes the treehouse, he sends Beleg to find her. Then, he intercepts the message from the C-Bros and delivers it to Thingol and Thingol decides to go to war w/ Feanorians. Blah, this isn't working. He hears rumors from men (Brethil?) that she escaped and was fleeing North on a great Hound. Travelling further, he runs into Oropher, who has been released by Luthien and wishes to return to Doriath. He tells Thingol of C&Cs further treachery and the death of Finrod. Maybe his time being tortured by Sauron causes him to be even more isolated than Thingol, and Thranduil sees it as well.

And I do like the idea of Sindar refugees from the Dagor Bragollach entering Doriath. I'm just not quite sure what to do with their story. Will they play any significant role later in the season?

I believe that someone mentioned way earlier having Luthien helping with refugees as a potential early story for her, Pre-Beren. To introduce some conflict into that, we could have some Men attempt to enter as refugees with them, but they are turned away by Thingol?

 

[Odola]

EDIT: Oropher could also be one of the elves released from the Isle when Luthien and Huan take Sauron out of the picture. [...]
Travelling further, he runs into Oropher, who has been released by Luthien and wishes to return to Doriath. He tells Thingol of C&Cs further treachery and the death of Finrod. Maybe his time being tortured by Sauron causes him to be even more isolated than Thingol, and Thranduil sees it as well.

Does Oropher meet Gil-Galad in Tol Sirion - is he older than him? So that he will not listen to Gil-Galad during the Battle of Dagorlad and die because of it?

I believe that someone mentioned way earlier having Luthien helping with refugees as a potential early story for her, Pre-Beren. To introduce some conflict into that, we could have some Men attempt to enter as refugees with them, but they are turned away by Thingol?

Rob Harding was the one who suggested this.

 

[Octoburn]

Does Oropher meet Gil-Galad in Tol Sirion - is he older than him? So that he will not listen to Gil-Galad during the Battle of Dagorlad and die because of it?

I think that Gil-Galad being High King of the Noldor, rather than a descendant of Thingol would give Oropher enough resentment in the future that age and seniority doesn't really need to play into it.

Rob Harding was the one who suggested this.

I thought so, but didn't want to say so without being certain.

 

[Odola]

I think that Gil-Galad being High King of the Noldor, rather than a descendant of Thingol would give Oropher enough resentment in the future that age and seniority doesn't really need to play into it.

So what is the relationship between them now? Is Gil-Galad's fiery temper the reason Oropher does not go to Nargothrond with the rest but to Doriath from Tol Sirion?

 

[kanji_d]

I recall the hosts saying at some point that Thranduil should still be a child in the eyes of the Elves during the Ruin of Doriath, but that's only a century off, so Oropher is definitely an adult now.

 

[Octoburn]

So what is the relationship between them now? Is Gil-Galad's fiery temper the reason Oropher does not go to Nargothrond with the rest but to Doriath from Tol Sirion?

The C-Bros are new to the scene in Nargothrond, and they are likely not gone yet. Even if he was a resident of Nargothrond or Tol Sirion before being held by Sauron, I dont think he would want to be in the presence of Feanorians. Or, he could just want to return to Doriath after growing weary of the wars, like many other Sindar are at this time.

 

[Odola]

The C-Bros are new to the scene in Nargothrond, and they are likely not gone yet. Even if he was a resident of Nargothrond or Tol Sirion before being held by Sauron, I dont think he would want to be in the presence of Feanorians. Or, he could just want to return to Doriath after growing weary of the wars, like many other Sindar are at this time.

But we wanted to establish Gil-Galad's hot-blooded reputation, and it is nice to set up their rivalry to close it up nicely at Oropher's death in the Battle of Dagorlad - both of the fighting Sauron again millenia later. Why waste such an opportunity?

 

[Octoburn]

But we wanted to establish Gil-Galad's hot-blooded reputation, and it is nice to set up their rivalry to close it up nicely at Oropher's death in the Battle of Dagorlad - both of the fighting Sauron again millenia later. Why waste such an opportunity?

It's just... a bit late to dig into that much this season. while this season isn't exclusively Beren and Luthien, it is mostly Beren and Luthien. I don't dislike the idea of having them both imprisoned on T-i-G together, forming a bond even. We just won't have much time to focus on them much, early in the season. I can imagine a couple of great sequences of them stumbling from the ruin of T-i-G post-Sauron, introducing themselves to B&L. a scene of them debating if they return to Narg when, last they heard, C&C were basically in charge. They agree to part ways there, because GG wants to take revenge on C&C, while Oropher wants no part in that conflict and wants to distance himself from the Feanoreans. GG returns to Narg, and due to his temper and wanting to avenge his grandfather w/C&C, Orodreth sends him to the Havens. Oropher returns to Doriath, reunites with his wife and young son, and maybe move into Ossiriand by the end of the season.

Heh. I almost talked myself into it.

The issue, still, is: will we have time to continue that? The stories, from here to the end of the first age, are much more focused than the first five are. Elves are almost background characters in the 3/4 Great Tales of Men. Will we really have time to track Oropher and Gil-Galad u til they are truly relevant in the second age? Or are we just going to basically say: "that was a cool 3 or 4 scenes, it'll pay off in 10 years"?

Again, I do like the idea; but is it sustainable? Is it worth it to truly follow these characters (which, if we introduce them in this manner, we should, or it would feel very disjointed) and try to develop them for 4 or 5 years before they are truly relevant to the story? Or do we wait until around the Nauglamir/Fall of Doriath/Second Kinslaying timeframe to introduce Oropher? Do we introduce Gil-Galad in a simpler way that doesn't feel like we are abandoning a character for several years?

 

[Odola]

It's just... a bit late to dig into that much this season. while this season isn't exclusively Beren and Luthien, it is mostly Beren and Luthien. I don't dislike the idea of having them both imprisoned on T-i-G together, forming a bond even. We just won't have much time to focus on them much, early in the season. I can imagine a couple of great sequences of them stumbling from the ruin of T-i-G post-Sauron, introducing themselves to B&L. a scene of them debating if they return to Narg when, last they heard, C&C were basically in charge. They agree to part ways there, because GG wants to take revenge on C&C, while Oropher wants no part in that conflict and wants to distance himself from the Feanoreans. GG returns to Narg, and due to his temper and wanting to avenge his grandfather w/C&C, Orodreth sends him to the Havens. Oropher returns to Doriath, reunites with his wife and young son, and maybe move into Ossiriand by the end of the season.

Heh. I almost talked myself into it.

We need to something happening to the characters, both when Tol Siron is attacked, taken, when they try to defend it, give it up, decide to flee, take to the boats - or whatever. Plenty of time for Oropher to get irritated by Gil-Galad trying to order him around and him being annoyed by it. Takes a few seconds and makes those "technical" scenes more interesting to watch. More is not needed. We need to set Gil-Galad up as a "fiery spirit" and that Oropher takes offence with that might be shown just by his disgusted face and his decission to go to Doriath as soon as possible to avoid being with Gil-Galad a moment longer than necessay. But I do not understand what Oropher would be doing in Tol Sirion in the first place - is he a subject of Orodreth or of Thingol?

 

[Octoburn]

We need to something happening to the characters, both when Tol Siron is attacked, taken, when they try to defend it, give it up, decide to flee, take to the boats - or whatever. Plenty of time for Oropher to get irritated by Gil-Galad trying to order him around and him being annoyed by it. Takes a few seconds and makes those "technical" scenes more interesting to watch. More is not needed. We need to set Gil-Galad up as a "fiery spirit" and that Oropher takes offence with that might be shown just by his disgusted face and his decission to go to Doriath as soon as possible to avoid being with Gil-Galad a moment longer than necessay. But I do not understand what Oropher would be doing in Tol Sirion in the first place - is he a subject of Orodreth or of Thingol?

Being in Tol Sirion is just a hypothetical at this point. As far as I can find, he's not been introduced yet. He could also be introduced as one of the Elves returning to Doriath from other kingdoms. Hithlum for example.

 

[Odola]

Being in Tol Sirion is just a hypothetical at this point. As far as I can find, he's not been introduced yet. He could also be introduced as one of the Elves returning to Doriath from other kingdoms. Hithlum for example.

Were Sindar living there much?

If Oropher's family is in Doriath, were it not easier he is visiting Orodreth from Doriath? Orodreth is - like his aunt Galadriel - still Thingol's kin (via Earwen) and so is Oropher - if via another branch. It would be fitting - even if Thingol does not want to see much of his Noldo kin - he can still sends some trusted person to check on the descendants of his younger brother Olwe, in the aftermath of the war?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Does Oropher meet Gil-Galad in Tol Sirion - is he older than him? So that he will not listen to Gil-Galad during the Battle of Dagorlad and die because of it?



Rob Harding was the one who suggested this.

Oropher's a Sinda of Doriath, not Tol Sirion.

 

[Octoburn]

Were Sindar living there much?

If Oropher's family is in Doriath, were it not easier he is visiting Orodreth from Doriath? Orodreth is - like his aunt Galadriel - still Thingol's kin (via Earwen) and so is Oropher - if via another branch. It would be fitting - even if Thingol does not want to see much of his Noldo kin - he can still sends some trusted person to check on the descendants of his younger brother Olwe, in the aftermath of the war?

Yes, there were many Sindar who were in the North of Beleriand before the Noldor came along. Many of them intermingled with the hosts of Fingolfin when he arrived (including a pretty big portion of Turgon's people actually being made up of Sindar, I believe). In the aftermath of the Bragollach, many of these Sindar who dwelled in the Northern Kingdoms fled to Doriath to seek shelter from the wars.

 

[Odola]

Yes, there were many Sindar who were in the North of Beleriand before the Noldor came along. Many of them intermingled with the hosts of Fingolfin when he arrived (including a pretty big portion of Turgon's people actually being made up of Sindar, I believe). In the aftermath of the Bragollach, many of these Sindar who dwelled in the Northern Kingdoms fled to Doriath to seek shelter from the wars.

Would they have stayed in Tol Sirion?

 

[Octoburn]

Would they have stayed in Tol Sirion?

Theres no explicit evidence that they do. But I dont think they have a reason not to. The Sindars grievance is more with the sons of Feanor than the other Noldor. Even if they have a reason not to stay there, we can some some captured by Sauron en route from Barad Eithel to Doriath.