Session 6-11: Beren and Lúthien Finale

The who is Daeron. The when is...not yet, as far as Season 6 goes.

If Daeron does not return untill Dior takes over Doriath, then Turin has no way of knowing it itself?
My question here is - how far the known fate of Beren influences e.g. Turin in rejecting Finduilas?
More specifically for season 6: has Beren's 1st death convinced Emeldir that any human-elf union is doomed to fail and should be avoided at all costs - which then Morwen takes over and teaches to her son?
Or maybe this is something Morwen concludes herself - knowing of the fate of both Andreth and Beren - and teaches to her young son while he is still with her?
Generally - how want we the humans to react to Beren's fate - how much do they know and when - and what cultural consequences does this knowledge have for them?
 
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Could we have Emeldir pass Narsil to Morwen while in Dor Lomin before she passes? This doesn't mean the sword would have to pass to Turin, I would actually like the idea of it being passed almost exclusively to women until it reaches Elendil. So she would still have it when she and Nienor escape to Doriath. It shouldn't be too hard to have it stay in Doriath when Morten leaves; have her leave I in the care of Nienor, who then leaves it with someone in Doriath (Melian?) when she sneaks out after her mother.. From there, there are two options. A. Follow the royal line, have Elwing pick it up in Doriath and take it back to the Havens, then she leaves it to maybe Elros before the kinslaying. B. We have it simply taken up by someone when they flee Doriath, and one of the eventual "Faithful" of Numenor takes I up at the Havens.

It's really hard to have it not be a part of the Kingly line, because the named people we know of are all of that line.
 
Plus bits and pieces come out slowly, like Huan humiliating Sauron.
It's also worth thinking about how epic poetry is actually composed. Tolkien was obviously influenced by the Poetic Edda (which was anonymous), but there's other epic poetry: there's a theory that the Iliad and Odyssey existed in tellings already and Homer was the one who collected them, and the Mahabharata seems to have been collected and compiled over centuries.

Of course, Tolkien attributes the Lay of Leithien, in its whole complete form, to Daeron. We have no reason to doubt this: at least one Elf who definitively knew Daeron survives until the Third Age, when we know it has long since reached its final form (more elves knew him if we make the reasonable assumption that the Lay was established by the end of the Second Age). Elves also do not have the same time limitation as humans, and it is more reasonable to tell the whole Lay, from beginning to end, in a single sitting (which would have been totally impractical for something like the Iliad). But the Lay of Leithian does break up rather neatly into episodic bits once you get past the opening, which leaves open the possibility that Daeron composed the Lay out of order.

We also have to realize that, for a good portion of the story, exactly two people know the details of what happened: the two protagonists. So Daeron has to be getting these stories either straight from them, or through continued tellings of those stories. At some points, the only living people who know what happened are the villains (for instance, the story of the tricking of Gorlim is known only to Sauron and Thuringwethil, and perhaps Gorgol and Morgoth).

This was kinda rambly... I intended to present the idea that Daeron didn't compose the whole Lay, but it turns out that's a totally feasible thing to have happened... we just need to get him somewhere he can do it after this season.
 
We also have to realize that, for a good portion of the story, exactly two people know the details of what happened: the two protagonists. So Daeron has to be getting these stories either straight from them, or through continued tellings of those stories. At some points, the only living people who know what happened are the villains (for instance, the story of the tricking of Gorlim is known only to Sauron and Thuringwethil, and perhaps Gorgol and Morgoth).

Beyond birds... and among those the Great Eagles. And Daeron could speak to those free birds escaping former Dorthonion - or at least some of the Great Eagles could for sure... If Daeron has some "time out" at the Eagles' Eyries, he could very well gather the info required. But still then he would not be ready untill Dior takes the throne of Doriath - so the Lay would not yet be known during Thingol's livetime.

So the degree to which details of the B&L story are known to the surrounding people in the meantime is to be determined and it also can vary from place to place.

There can very well also be rumours, omitions, superstitions and misunderstandings woven into the various versions told of it, as the narrative has not yet been "standardized and canosized" in-story.

So whenever it has some relevance for the stories that follow it it this intermediary period we have to establish how much and what various persons know of it - I am sure the version Finduilas does know of it is very different that Turin knows from his mother...

And I doubt it is told to Turin in great details while he is at Thingol's court - probably more like family secret nobody draws much attention to beyong simply aknowleding and nodding off the mere basic facts.

But whatever we do with it, some fundation for parts of the story getting out and starting to circulate among various peoples should be shown in season 6 already - I think we would have to show some kind of reaction from Morwen while she is witnessing the B&L wedding - what is her general attitude towards the matter - she e.g. might be of the opinion thet Beren is wasting his potential as a possible leader to the House of Beor who could have led his people into greatness for a mere pretty face - she is old enought to have such considerations... Whatever we want her reaction to be, we should at least signal it...
 
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It's really hard to have it not be a part of the Kingly line, because the named people we know of are all of that line.

I know, this was why I was hoping to use one of the other descendant of Bregolas, that last formally ordained Lord of Ladros, as the next generation of Beorian leadership. Emildir makes great sense as a transitional figure, heroically leading the people out of Dorthonion but as she ages (already in her fifties?) she will need to appoint a successor. I understand that we need to keep the name figures trimmed to avoid confusing the audience but if they all die off or produce no more children then we're in a bit of a corner.

I never considered how Beren's re-embodiment might perhaps be perceived negatively by the Edain of his house. Certainly distance is a factor in his non-involvement but whether or not he explicitly refuses clan leadership or not, his career is going in an entirely different direction. They will need a leader who will remain with the people. Even if a descendant of Beor himself is not found, someone must be chosen. Perhaps we can identify/introduce a promising youth among the people of Beor of unspecific family heritage who aids Emeldir now (a glorified background character) who can get more screentime in subsequent seasons who eventually guides the clan.

If that person is female then she can also apprentice and carry on the wise woman tradition.
 
I know, this was why I was hoping to use one of the other descendant of Bregolas, that last formally ordained Lord of Ladros, as the next generation of Beorian leadership. Emildir makes great sense as a transitional figure, heroically leading the people out of Dorthonion but as she ages (already in her fifties?) she will need to appoint a successor. I understand that we need to keep the name figures trimmed to avoid confusing the audience but if they all die off or produce no more children then we're in a bit of a corner.

I never considered how Beren's re-embodiment might perhaps be perceived negatively by the Edain of his house. Certainly distance is a factor in his non-involvement but whether or not he explicitly refuses clan leadership or not, his career is going in an entirely different direction. They will need a leader who will remain with the people. Even if a descendant of Beor himself is not found, someone must be chosen. Perhaps we can identify/introduce a promising youth among the people of Beor of unspecific family heritage who aids Emeldir now (a glorified background character) who can get more screentime in subsequent seasons who eventually guides the clan.

If that person is female then she can also apprentice and carry on the wise woman tradition.

Morwen would actually fit to a certain degree - being the older of the two girls. But I am not sure where we would like to take her - we know how she ends - but where shalls she be at her "highest"?

Whatever we choose to do with her on her way before the inevitable decline begins - I think the B&L wedding scene is a good point to start off her projectory. And a mini-confrontation with Saeros would be imho a fitting setup for Saeros' later fatal conflict with Morwen's future son.
 
And a mini-confrontation with Saeros would be imho a fitting setup for Saeros' later fatal conflict with Morwen's future son.

I am definitely a fan of setting up Saeros’ jerk attitude and putting him in contact with one of Turin’s relatives is a fun way to do it!
 
Perhaps we can identify/introduce a promising youth among the people of Beor of unspecific family heritage who aids Emeldir now (a glorified background character) who can get more screentime in subsequent seasons who eventually guides the clan
Is there a chance we could identify one of the children rescued by Barahir and company from Obel-na-thon in S6E01 as someone who rises to prominence after being delivered into the care of Emeldir in Brethil as a future leader among the Beorians? That child might become the companion of Morwen and Rian.
 
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