Session 6-11: Beren and Lúthien Finale

[Odola]

I am listening to the episodes asynchronously, so... Apologies in advance if I'm revisiting already solved issues. I'm also not sure if I've understood this correctly... 🙄

I take it that Daeron goes looking for Luthien, and that he understands that she's heading for Angband? And that he encounters the Eagles and tells them this? If this is the case, then...I feel the Eagles aren't represented as the servants of Manwë that they are. I think they should know more than Daeron. Again, maybe you've already gone through this. I don't think there has to be a huge change in the story, but I'd be happy if there was a less clear transaction between Daeron and the Eagles. He could be under the impression that he gives them vital intel, and they can thank him for it, but it could be implied that they actually have seen Luthien and Beren moving north towards Thangorodrim.

I think they do overhear his lament without him even knowing?

 

[Haakon]

I think they do overhear his lament without him even knowing?

Ok I see. That’s fine I guess, although it still kind of implies that they need his knowledge or insight

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I am listening to the episodes asynchronously, so... Apologies in advance if I'm revisiting already solved issues. I'm also not sure if I've understood this correctly... 🙄

I take it that Daeron goes looking for Luthien, and that he understands that she's heading for Angband? And that he encounters the Eagles and tells them this? If this is the case, then...I feel the Eagles aren't represented as the servants of Manwë that they are. I think they should know more than Daeron. Again, maybe you've already gone through this. I don't think there has to be a huge change in the story, but I'd be happy if there was a less clear transaction between Daeron and the Eagles. He could be under the impression that he gives them vital intel, and they can thank him for it, but it could be implied that they actually have seen Luthien and Beren moving north towards Thangorodrim.

Yes, I think that is something that can happen.

 

[MithLuin]

The goal of this detail is to establish for the audience that the eagles do not come out of nowhere. They are meant to be in the audience's mind prior to their appearance at Angband. So, Daeron-brings-the-eagles is not a matter of him actually asking the eagles to intervene or having them follow him to Angband, but rather that they get 'looped in' to the story when he comes through their territory. We can work to make that interaction more subtle.

 

[Odola]

Ok I see. That’s fine I guess, although it still kind of implies that they need his knowledge or insight

I thing it just implies they need some kind of supplication to be able to get involved?

 

[Haakon]

I thing it just implies they need some kind of supplication to be able to get involved?

I guess it could mean that but do they need that? They tend to arrive at the hour if need but not necessarily because someone has asked for their help. I’m sure this isn’t an exception. I’d sooner interpret their involvement here along the lines of them being alerted that someone the Valar care about is performing a selfless deed against impossible odds.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Propose one, or even better: propose several to choose from... 😉

Right; so here's the problem: nothing is recovered from the Hill of the Slain, people only go there to die (read: Rian). If it goes to Dor-Lomin, the sword will be taken and destroyed by the Easterlings, since none of the House of Hador are able to keep it safe for the decades of occupation and nobody escapes save for Tuor. If it goes to the Elves of Mithrim, they get raided by the Easterlings, gets lost and destroyed. Bottom line: Narsil goes to Dor-Lomin, there's no way to get it into safe hands at the Havens or other places; we'd have to pull something really contrived to keep it safe from the Easterlings.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Right; so here's the problem: nothing is recovered from the Hill of the Slain, people only go there to die (read: Rian). If it goes to Dor-Lomin, the sword will be taken and destroyed by the Easterlings, since none of the House of Hador are able to keep it safe for the decades of occupation and nobody escapes save for Tuor. If it goes to the Elves of Mithrim, they get raided by the Easterlings, gets lost and destroyed. Bottom line: Narsil goes to Dor-Lomin, there's no way to get it into safe hands at the Havens or other places; we'd have to pull something really contrived to keep it safe from the Easterlings.

@OfGondor22 on Twitter suggested the following to Professor Olsen, who responded very positively:

Hurin _does_ wield Narsil during the Nirnaeth. He then hands it off to Turgon when they part so that Turgon can lead his people from the field. Now swordless, Hurin takes up a discarded axe to use against the enemy.

This is where Narsil becomes the "sword of the faithful" and it need only reach the hands of the refugees who escape the Fall of Gondolin to survive to the Second Age.

 

[Arnorion]

...
Then, at the end of episode 13, there would be a scene of Emeldir saying farewell to Andreth's grave while leading the remaining Dorthonion refugees to Dor-lómin. At this point, Narsil is with Emeldir and is thus also headed to Dor-lómin. [Getting Narsil out of Dor-lómin without having it end up in the Hill of Slain is now a problem for future seasons.]

I am very late to this particular party but I have a suggestion for preserving Narsil and getting it where it needs to go (i.e. to the Lords of Andunie) without it getting stuck either in the Forest of Brethil of the Hill of [the] Slain: give it to Beleth daughter of Bregolas. This solves at least two problems with bonus effects that will pay off in the second age.

 

[Arnorion]

I am very late to this particular party but I have a suggestion for preserving Narsil and getting it where it needs to go (i.e. to the Lords of Andunie) without it getting stuck either in the Forest of Brethil of the Hill of [the] Slain: give it to Beleth daughter of Bregolas. This solves at least two problems with bonus effects that will pay off in the second age.

Andreth needs to bequeath Narsil to someone before she dies and Morwen and Rian are out because their children Turin and Tuor go to other fates elsewhere. To the refugees of Dorthonion, Beleth is the only remaining progeny of Bregolas, the last rightly-appointed Lord of Ladros. We know from Unfinished Tales that she must have had children (though they aren’t identified in the family trees I’ve seen) and for our purposes they can be made to be the right age to miss the Nirnaeth, keeping Narsil out of the Hill of Slain. Problem one solved.

Moreover, the Beorians need a leader who is actually among them. Baragund and Belegund don’t count, as far as the refugees know they are already dead, and Emeldir isn’t having any more kids – as the daughter of their slain Lord whose descendants are attested, Beleth makes the most sense. She can lead the people after Emeldir’s heroic evacuation action and her child can be the leader of the Beorians in exile as they sojourn among and partially merge with the folk of Dor-lomin. Problem two solved.

Bonus effect: the sword Narsil remains with leaders of Beorian remnant, misses the Nirnaeth, and is carried away from Dor-lomin with the survivors of the fall of Beleriand and ends up at the Mouths of Sirion. It might be wielded in War of Wrath (optional fun), and would then go to Numenor with the Beorians rather than Elros, ultimately becoming Elatan’s sword before he weds Silmarien. Thus, Narsil is clearly the heirloom sword of the Beorians of Andunie without having to be the second-best sword in the hoard of the Kings of Numenor – it is a faithful sword and not a royal sword. I think that this path will map well to its use and symbolism in the late second age with Numendil, Amandil, and Elendil as the King's Men persecute the Elf-friends.

 

[MithLuin]

So, we do need to pass Narsil on prior to Andreth's death, and we will be visiting Brethil in Episode 11 to set that up. The character the sword is passed to needs to be someone the audience already knows, though, because the only 'new' characters from the House of Bëor that we are introducing at that time are possibly Morwen and Rían. While I don't mind Beleth existing among the Bëornian refugees, and I think it would be helpful to have some names Tolkien included on standby to use for any background characters who have lines, I don't think we have any intention to introduce Beleth as a character the audience knows at this time.

For Season 5, we were very judicious about how many named human characters we expected the audience to know and keep track of. For the House of Bëor, that meant: Bëor, Adanel, Andreth, Barahir...with introductions of minor characters Bregolas, Beren, Baragund, Belegund, Gorlim, Emeldir. Other lines were given to background characters like 'old guy' or 'singing youth' - not characters the audience was expected to learn the name of or keep track of.

Andreth and Emeldir have been acting as de facto leaders of the refugees since the Dagor Bragollach. At the time of the evacuation, Andreth was still a 'Wise Woman' of the House of Bëor, and thus has an official leadership position (the stole). She had acceded military leadership to others in Season 5 as a result of the move to Ladros, but retained some level of civic leadership. When the decision to evacuate happened during the sudden flame of the Dagor Bragollach, Emeldir stepped forward and took shared responsibility for that. At that time, she is the wife of the military leader (Barahir), and both she and Andreth are assuring the others that they will get the women, children, and elderly to safety. So, it is the decision of the gathered leaders that Andreth and Emeldir do this.

We have not yet visited Brethil to see the state of the refugees living there. But I see no reason why Andreth and Emeldir would not continue to be the leaders in the years since the battle. It is true that when Beren arrives, he will confirm the deaths of the outlaws (no doubt strongly suspected by this time - it has been years since anyone has heard news from them). So, at that time, Emeldir becomes the wife of the deceased Lord of Ladros, rather than the wife of the current (or presumed dead) Lord of Ladros.

But...there is no more Ladros. The House of Bëor is a people without a land, and will be moving from Brethil to Dor-lómin at the end of this season (Episode 13). So, we don't need a Lord of Ladros after the death of Barahir. Emeldir is the one who makes that decision and leads the people. So, it would make the most sense for her to have the sword - for Andreth to have passed it on to her. Note that Narsil is *not* an heirloom of the House of Bëor. It never belonged to the chieftains or anything like that. Narsil was Aegnor's sword, and is given to Andreth in acknowledgement of her grief at his death. So, it is a personal belonging of Andreth that she may pass on to anyone she pleases. She chooses Emeldir. At this point in time, the only other option is for it to be given to Morwen (Rían is too young). So, if we want it to become Húrin's sword, we could do that.


It is definitely our goal to get Narsil to the Mouths of Sirion, and to have it go to Numenor with a character who is not Elros. As you point out, it needs to become an heirloom among the Faithful, not of the Kings of Númenor. There are a few steps in the middle that we are missing, so one of the questions for Season 7 will be...'who does Emeldir give Narsil to and how does it avoid being left in the Haudh-en-Ndengin at the Nirnaeth Arnoediad?' I know some people have some ideas, but nothing definitive has been decided yet. One option is for it to reach the Havens via Gondolin rather than via Dor-lómin. An earlier idea was to leave it in Brethil until the time of Túrin, but the hand-off to Emeldir seemed more important here and we've since discarded that idea.

 

[Arnorion]

Thanks for the thoughtful and detailed response. I’m a little disappointed that my original solution won’t work (this is the risk of jumping into the forums after years of listening asynchronously) but encouraged that we’re not entirely at odds about the mechanism of its arrival in Numenor apart from the house of Elros.

I certainly understand the imperativeto keep the number of named characters to a minimum to avoid audience confusion and you raise an important point that at this moment the sword is not yet an artifact of the House of Beor, though it may become that in a few generations.

I will familiarize myself with the essential characters list and give it some more thought. We still, I think, have to resolve not only the puzzle of the provenance of Narsil but also the question of who will lead the Beorians post-Ladros (after Emeldir). Unless we imagine they are to merge completely with the folk of Hador or Haleth (both supportable decisions), they will likely want their own leaders through the centuries leading to the Havens and the War of Wrath.

 

[Odola]

Unless we imagine they are to merge completely with the folk of Hador or Haleth (both supportable decisions), they will likely want their own leaders through the centuries leading to the Havens and the War of Wrath.

As I've stated before, I find a complete merge below 2 generations unlikely. Those who remember having been refugees and those who remember having seen them arrive as refugees have all to be dead for such a merge to happen for real - and not only nominally.

 

[Arnorion]

That makes sense, Odola, certainly from an in-world refugee perspective. Also, it seems clear from at least some of the texts referring to the second age that distinct strains of Edain culture remain alive and well in Numenor: primarily Beorian families at least in the westlands. Naturally the royal line descending from Elros is ethnically blended (can trace ancestry to all three Edain clans and all major elf groups) but I don't think that need be the case largely speaking.
So I hope we are able to find a leader for the survivors of the House of Beor in the following generations. Not everyone is marrying into House of Hador or House of Haleth anyway.

 

[Odola]

That makes sense, Odola, certainly from an in-world refugee perspective. Also, it seems clear from at least some of the texts referring to the second age that distinct strains of Edain culture remain alive and well in Numenor: primarily Beorian families at least in the westlands. Naturally the royal line descending from Elros is ethnically blended (can trace ancestry to all three Edain clans and all major elf groups) but I don't think that need be the case largely speaking.
So I hope we are able to find a leader for the survivors of the House of Beor in the following generations. Not everyone is marrying into House of Hador or House of Haleth anyway.

This issue with that is that then there we have to find an elegant way to cut Beren and Dior from the succession line of the House of Beor in-story - as otherwise their duty would be to that said human House first and foremost and not e.g. to Doriath.

Beren's 1st death might be such caesura - as the "reembodied" Beren and his successive offsping might not be accepted as "biologically" of the "House of Beor" by the humans - as Beren's new body is not physically"born" of its bloodline - just recreated from his fëa's memory of it
- while elves have no cultural problem with accepting reembodied Luthien and her offsping as "their own" - reembodiment is always a valid possibility for elves and even if they haven't yet experienced reembodied elves before still biologically this is a "normal fact of (elvish) life" for them.

[This is why I have suggested before for the Doriathim elves to give Beren's 1st body to the House of Beren for proper human burial... Then the succession of his House would naturally go to others, as he has died (while yet) childless].

 

[MithLuin]

Geography plays a role. At the end of Season 6, Beren (and later his son Dior) are in Tol Galen. The surviving remnant of the House of Bëor is now in Dor-lómin. Travel between these two places is non-trivial, and there can be no expectation of ongoing communication. In fact, we know that Beren did not speak to mortals after his return from the dead, so there is no direct communication at all.



But even before his death, Beren has the 'choice' to take on the role of leader of the remnant of the House of Bëor in Brethil, or return to Doriath and ask to marry Lúthien again. This is after the failure of the Quest - his hand is bitten off and the silmaril is gone. He is in Brethil, talking to his mother. So, he has every opportunity to choose his people and any remaining responsibility towards them...but he does not. He chooses Lúthien. That is an important part of his story.

His people aren't angry at him for this - his mother attends his wedding, for instance. But she also knows he is gone, and that the remaining House of Bëor will have to make their decisions without him. So, they do. They go to Dor-lómin.

Recall that in Silm Film, there is no established hereditary leadership of the House of Bëor. Each leader chooses a successor. So far, that has not ever been father - to - son. Emeldir, as a descendant of Adanel, is also related to a previous leader in her own right. She is not simply a 'stand in' for the true leader. She is the leader at this time. It's not as though it's only women and children living in the Forest of Brethil - the army that Barahir led is there, too. Only his closest companions accompanied him on his mission back to Dorthonion. So, Emeldir could be Andreth's successor, and she can determine who among their people will serve as Barahir's successor. This will be a story for Season 7, though. For Season 6, we will end with Emeldir at Andreth's grave, Narsil on her person, turning towards Dor-lómin accompanied by Morwen and Rían.

 

[Odola]

In fact, we know that Beren did not speak to mortals after his return from the dead, so there is no direct communication at all.

A part of why this is might be the posssible complications it would cause for a human culture - either the others would be envious of his "return from death" and consider themselves ill-treated in comparison or they would regard him with horror as a kind of "undead/zombie". Either way not pleasant.

But even before his death, Beren has the 'choice' to take on the role of leader of the remnant of the House of Bëor in Brethil, or return to Doriath and ask to marry Lúthien again. This is after the failure of the Quest - his hand is bitten off and the silmaril is gone. He is in Brethil, talking to his mother. So, he has every opportunity to choose his people and any remaining responsibility towards them...but he does not. He chooses Lúthien. That is an important part of his story.

True, but the whole problematic should be mentioned - even if in passing - while he is there...


Edit: At their first return from death B&L go to Doriath to heal Thingol - so Emeldir & co are away at that point in time already?

If so, then the attack of Carcharoth on Brethil on his way to Doriath and Beren's following 1st death might be good reasons for her to decide to leave - as "there is nothing left for her/them in Brethil (and its near surroundings) anymore..."

Actually the hoped-for possible return of Barahir's band might have been the reason for Emeldir and the rest stay in Brethil for so long... Now that they know for sure that this is not going to happen anymore they are free to move on. Still I doubt she would have moved on while Beren was still alive in Doriath - he was her only child and the nearest of kin...

BTW - how far the Beren's return from death generally know to humans? How far is e.g. the later fostered Turin aware of the fact that Thingol has a mortal (reembodied) son-in-law and a mortal grand-son living in self-chosen exile?

BTW 2: Should we not explicitly see Saeros among Thingol's court this season somewhere - maybe making a disgusted face at B&L wedding? Or maybe being impolite to Turin's future mother - now yet teenager Morwen accompaning Emeldir to the B&L's wedding - without anybody but the audience noticing? It would be little time to establish his highly regarded position in court if we just introduce him in the Turin story to have him killed of right of at its very beginning?

 

[MithLuin]

Saeros was introduced in Season 3. He is part of the court, yes, so appears in ensemble scenes.

The Lay of Leithian is generally known throughout Beleriand.

 

[Odola]

Saeros was introduced in Season 3. He is part of the court, yes, so appears in ensemble scenes.

The Lay of Leithian is generally known throughout Beleriand.

But when has it been written and completed in-story?

 

[MithLuin]

The who is Daeron. The when is...not yet, as far as Season 6 goes.