Session 7-07 and 7-08: Other Season 7 Stories

[MithLuin]

Alcarohtar, welcome back! You are right, Tolkien makes a clear point that there is a direct relationship between the actions of Celegorm and Curufin in West Beleriand, and the unwillingness of both Doriath and Nargothrond to send warriors to join the fight in the Nirnaeth. Neither kingdom sends a significant portion of their strength, and thus Maedhros is hindered by the actions of his brothers when he tries to unite the Elves for a common cause. In building up the amdir of 'now is the time!' we do not want to lose sight of those consequences.

As you point out, we will want to be careful to differentiate what is happening in Doriath and Nargothrond. Gwindor's desire to go to war, how that conflicts with Orodreth's desire to stay out of the Union of Maedhros, and the eventual compromise to allow Gwindor to take a contingent so long as they do not march with any son of Fëanor - that story speaks to the cost of Celegorm and Curufin's actions when it comes to the death of Finrod. Both Orodreth and Gwindor will be at the Summit meeting. What happens with Thingol in Doriath when Beleg and Mablung wish to go to war after Thingol's representatives return from the Summit meeting should not be...'the same story.'

The Fëanoreans were banned from Doriath and labeled as 'kinslayers unrepentant' long before the events of the Dagor Bragollach. Even refugees from that war were denied entrance into Doriath from the East. The incidents with Lúthien have not improved the situation in any way. So, no, the Fëanoreans are not welcome in Doriath, and noone within Doriath has any sort of relationship with any of them. There is no diplomat ferrying back and forth between the groups. The views the people of Doriath hold of the Fëanoreans has not improved after they held Lúthien in Nargothrond and proposed that she marry Celegorm - We referred to it as 'house arrest'; they had lured her there by saying that Beren was there, and promising to assist her; they then took her cloak away from her and were holding her in Nargothrond 'for her own safety'... she was prevented from leaving, and her desire to avoid fighting her way out is what kept her there until Huan brought her her cloak and showed her a side exit. And in fact Thingol's response to that message was to send an army to Nargothrond to find and rescue her. While it's possible that Lúthien and Beren wouldn't be overly eager to talk about the Leap of Beren, they *did* tell Thingol's court about the Quest...and that was part of their experience of the Quest. We did not show that retelling on screen, so it's possible to interpret it as being an 'edited' version where not all details are given. But it's also not impossible that the entire court of Doriath is aware that the Sons of Fëanor made an attempt on Lúthien's life at that time. It seems unlikely that Lúthien would have left out the part of the story where Beren took an arrow for her, and how she was so worried that he would not survive....so that means mentioning where the arrow came from. Add to that the situation where Thingol has a silmaril, and *knows* that makes him a target of the Oath of Fëanor....yeah, there's some tension.

So, not everyone in Nargothrond wants to join the fight, and the king is opposed. But the motivation behind that is mostly Finrod-centric, and fear of losing the safety of the secrecy of Nargothrond. Not everyone in Doriath wants to join the fight, and here it will probably be a mix of complacency thinking they are safe behind the Girdle, and anger over how Lúthien was treated by the Sons of Fëanor (or anger about them in general). If Thingol does allow for volunteers, and Beleg and Mablung wish to go...they should not have that many elves join them. We have few named elves in Doriath to refuse the call, but Saeros certainly would. And we've discussed keeping Celeborn out of the fight as well. Alternatively, we can have Thingol not send any warriors at all, but a small guard to accompany supplies sent north...which would turn into those guards being drawn into the war and the fighting. A lackluster call for volunteers would show the overall mood of Doriath, though, and be a good way to take the story outside the court.

As for the Fëanorean approach to Doriath...I think it is quite possible that we will see Maedhros behave a bit dictatorially with his brothers here. He's not so much persuading them as informing them that this is how things will be. His anger over the actions of Celegorm and Curufin suggest that he's not exactly listening to their input right now. We should sow the seeds for a shift in the balance of power amongst the brothers. Maedhros was a victorious leader in the Dagor Bragollach, while his other brothers failed. He feels quite justified in calling the shots, and it's his plan. When this plan fails...everything he said about how they should follow him due to his success would be overturned. So, if there are any grumblings about Thingol, or his silmaril, or Doriath...Maedhros can shut them down without discussion for now (especially/specifically this topic). But it's obviously going to come back later. Maedhros will be putting more effort into persuading the other Noldor, and the Men, and the Dwarves - he's going to take his brothers a bit for granted here.

 

[Alvisan]

And by the way it was Thingol who started it all by demanding a Silmaril and Thingol must to be aware of it.

Hahaha, totally agree
On the other hand, Feanor did kill Thingol's brother. ☹️

The story in Doriath could be less focused on what Celegorm and Curufin did and more about revisiting his relationship with the Noldor and the humans, and also a reminder of the Doom of Mandos (which is kind of a spoiler of the end of the season: unnumbered tears, treason, and bad ending to their endeavours).

 

[MithLuin]

I agree that we need to get the Doom of Mandos repeated on screen this season - it was delivered in Season 3, and here we are in Season 7. True, we've alluded to it since then (we didn't just have the Doom delivered, and then forget about it). Most recently, in Season 6 it becomes part of the song duel between Finrod and Sauron, where Sauron brings up treachery, and how Finrod is under the Doom. For this season, it makes the most sense to have it brought up by someone who is going to decline to join the Union, and it will make a difference if it is said by one of the Noldor who is under the Doom, or an outsider. Thingol personally has the most reason to fear treachery on the part of the Fëanoreans if he was to, for example, let any of them into his realm, or march out to war himself. So for him, the lack of trustworthiness may be personal, but he can also in complete honesty claim to have the words of Mandos on his side here.

 

[MithLuin]

Another place the Doom can come up is at the Summit meeting at Tol Sirion. If anyone wants to bring up the Doom, Maedhros can bring up that the fear of treachery is one of the things that leads to doom, so giving into that fear is feeding the Doom, not necessarily being wise.

 

[MithLuin]

Notes

Featuring special guest Ilana Mushin! (Dave and Nick were out)

Dwarves
Dwarves will be involved in building siege equipment for the war effort…siege equipment which will later be sabotaged by Uldor’s people. Nick’s two everyman Dwarves will be part of the dwarf story this season. The dwarves have an engineering corps that will be significant to the war effort.

Azaghâl
Azaghâl, Lord of Belegost, is a somewhat newly ascended leader of his people. He was king during the Dagor Bragollach (less than two decades ago), but he is not the same Azaghâl who gifted the dragon-helm made by Telchar to Maedhros (off screen, early season 5). He is younger than Gimli was during his time in the Fellowship (age 139), and may be as young as Fili and Kili were during the Quest for Erebor (age 77-82). So, a dwarf of less than 100 years who has led his people as king for no more than 25 years?

Azaghâl is a bit of a prodigy. He’s got charisma and vision. He’s willing to try new things. He leads his people into battle. His loss is a major tragedy, because of all the potential he had to become a great king of the dwarves. There will be a backlash after the war - those dwarves who supported the king in the march to war will be bitter about the betrayal of the Easterlings, the failure of the Fëanoreans to prevent this, and just with having allies in Beleriand in general. Those who were reluctant or skeptical of the alliance in the first place would feel vindicated in their fears by the death of the king. And now that the king has died, the new king is a child and Belegost is out of the picture for the rest of the First Age.

View of the Dwarves
Is Azaghâl a warrior-king? We’ve shown the dwarves as traders to this point. We will have to keep in mind how the Elves’ perspective of the dwarves will need to change in this battle. We needn’t get into the backstory of when dwarves have fought (against other dwarves), but it could be alluded to or speculated about by outsiders (Elves or Men).

The Elves may or may not have figured out that Dwarves are mortal at this point in time. They at the very least think it impolite to mention it because the dwarves seem so secretive about it. But the idea that the kings of the Dwarves are ‘deathless’ is a new concept to the elves and is worth some philosophical pondering on the part of the Elves - Curufin may be the one to do that.

Nogrod
Nogrod, whose king has been on the throne since the death of Eöl (S05E10, FA 436 in Silm Film), is stuck in his ways, and has no interest in change or trying new things. Laurin is considerably older than Azaghâl. He declines to join the alliance, and trusts that what they have been doing will continue to be successful. Trading partners, yes. Risking our own lives with boots on the ground? No.

The Dragon Helm
Telchar made it (shown in Silm Film in the Season 4 tag). Azaghâl gifted it to Maedhros. Maedhros gave it as a gift to Fingon, who first fought Glaurung. Fingon gifted it to Hador for his bravery in fighting the wargs when they first appeared (shown in Silm Film S05E06, FA 392). And Hador passed it on to his son Galdor, who gives it to Húrin.

Húrin leaves it with Túrin before going to battle. It follows Túrin to Doriath, where Thingol keeps it in a place of honor until he comes of age. It is left in Doriath when Túrin flees, and is given to him by Beleg later (as Tolkien wrote).

Villains

Glaurung
Glaurung is in Dorthonion at the beginning of the season, raising his dragon spawn and making it Taur-nu-Fuin. We do not want him to be recalled to Angband, because his coming out of Angband was the Dagor Bragollach, and the silent walls of Thangorodrim are part of the ambiance of the Nirnaeth, where Morgoth is under attack (not attacking).

The Union must have a plan to deal with the dragon. They cannot simply ignore that there is a dragon in Dorthonion! But from experience they know they can’t really kill him, so a hunt for the dragon would be likely fruitless and not end well. You can’t contain the dragon…. Nor can you count on the dragon being too distracted to join the battle. So, the main hope is to both distract and contain/trap the dragon. Treasure distracts a dragon, and if the hoard were to be placed somewhere that the dragon could be trapped (such as by destroying a bridge….)

Who will trap the dragon? Handir, Rhogrin, and Amras were all suggested as potential candidates for this task.

Morgoth
Where is he on his path of destruction? He is pouring his power into the world, corrupting Arda. But, we don’t see much of that. We see anger, and we see sudden infusions of power (making the orcs, dragons, the spell of Bottomless Dread and even Carcharoth). But where is he right now, and when will the audience see that? Captive Húrin makes Morgoth mad - he feels the need to prove him wrong. The audience sees for the first time what Morgoth is really capable of. He…was never in any danger of losing the Nirnaeth.

Morgoth has something to prove after Fingolfin, after Lúthien. Sauron thinks he has lost face. Morgoth is never worried about the outcome of this war, though. His only worry is attracting the attention of the Valar, who remain idle in Valinor despite everything. Toying with the elves before he destroys them all is find with him. But he’s not invested in winning. He knows he will win; he’s invested in something bigger than winning. He maybe misses playing his main lieutenants off one another.

Balrogs
Perhaps time to give speaking roles/names to other balrogs. There are nine total, and we will perhaps want to introduce the one that Glorfindel will kill, as well as Durin’s Bane.

Boldog
Boldog will be the one who personally dismembers Guilin at the beginning of the Nirnaeth. He will be killed by Húrin.


Galdor will die in a skirmish of some sort. Emeldir will die of cancer. She will have a systemic, progressive illness (ie, lymphoma or bone cancer)

We did not have the chance to discuss the prisoners of Angband, or whether or not they will have a story this season.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

Regarding Glaurung; they don't trap him because he gets back to Angband to join up with the rest of Morgoth's forces. Or is Glaurung stuck behind enemy lines until the Nirnaeth?

 

[Alvisan]

Regarding Glaurung; they don't trap him because he gets back to Angband to join up with the rest of Morgoth's forces. Or is Glaurung stuck behind enemy lines until the Nirnaeth?

I would say Maedhros and the rest of the elves believe they have him trapped, but he manages to get back to Angband through one of the 'secret doors'.
Maybe Glaurung puts a spell on the elves that were watching over him.
It would be interesting to have Morgoth telling Glaurung not to go out until he commands it (unlike the first time he went out).

 

[MithLuin]

Glaurung will not be going back to Angband until he is wounded in the Nirnaeth.

As explained in the session, it's important to differentiate this battle from our last major battle visually. Glaurung bursting out of Angband with the rivers of fire to start the Battle of Sudden Flame was very striking...and we should not have a repeat here. Rather, now we have the nearly-silent watching walls of Angband, with the cruelty to the prisoners as the focus of the beginning of this battle. No dragon attack.

So, Glaurung will be in Dorthonion throughout the season. The Union of Maedhros will be aware that he is there, and also well aware that it does not do to leave a live dragon out of your calculations. They don't know how to kill him, so they will settle on a plan to trap him. Lure him with treasure, and try to confine him. This is not perfect, of course, but the best they can do. The trap may work temporarily, it may delay Glaurung, but of course he will get out, and *then* he will join the battle in the East.

This allows us the ability to plan a daring feat in which a small band sets up the dragon-trap. We will worry for their safety, and depending on who we send, we could even have a fatality (Handir was suggested.) We can connect Glaurung to Nargothrond and Brethil with this plan (perhaps some of the treasure is from Nargothrond....). And then, after the tension of whether or not the trap will work or the trappers will survive, we have the question of whether or not the trap will hold. When we show the dragon escape, there will be a definite 'oh no!' that should lead very nicely into the confrontation between the dwarves of Belegost and their war helms with the dragon...and the death of Azaghâl and near-fatal wounding of Glaurung.

 

[Odola]

(Handir was suggested.)

Well, if so, then there must be place for Handir's marriage to Beldis (assumingly of the House of Beor - well, her mother Bregil daughter of Bregor was of the House of Beor for sure, while her husband Arachon could been a Haladin already, as his House was not stated, so their is room to make Beldis the wife of Handir a Haladin already, should we choose to).
Handir must father Brandir the Lame (born F.A. 465) before he dies, while this must not be mentioned in our story, there has to be place for it and it must be understood that he is married with a small kid when he dies..

Handir actually should taken over the chieftainship over the Haladin after his own father Haldir's death in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad in FA. 472. If we kill Handir off before, then he has not time to be chieftain himself. As Brandir the Lame is 7 at the time of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Brandir would become a fatherless orphan by then.

Originally Handir dies 495, so that happens when his son Brandir the Lame is 30 and can take over the Haladin. If we make Handir die 23 years earlier, then Brandir the Lame becomes Chieftain at the tender age of 7 years old! So he would taken over the leadrhip of his House both as as a of impaired mobility and as a minor child in a time of war. Is this feasible?

Or we let Handr's father Haldir live on longer and survive the Nirnaeth Arnoediad , but then Glóredhel his wife and Handir's mother would not die of grief in 472. As those were the foster-parents of Hurin and Huor, the fact that they do live longer than 472 would slightly affect the story.

In the original Handir dies and Brandir takes over the Haladin a mere year before Turin arrives in Brethil. So Brandir would be still a "young" leader. If we change Handir death, then Brandir had been leading the Haladin for over two decades alredy from a very early age. This would change Brandirs character and outlook on life.

[Either way Turin should be aware that Brandir is his second cousin on their fathers' side and remember that Brandir's father was his own father's foster-brother. If Turin treats Brandir dismissively, that could be an attitude Turin had learned from Morven, as actually there is no reason why Turin should dismiss his own kinsman. Even if Turin himself does conceal his identity, he should still recognize Brandir by name and heritage (we are told that Brandir does recognize Turin for who he is, but that he keeps silent about that).

So if we decide to kill off Handir sooner, we should remember that he is married and has a young son. He should not die seemingly a young bachelor otherwise we will have great trouble with Brandir "falling from the sky" in our story.

 

[MithLuin]

The plot about penning the dragon must happen at the time of the Nirnath. So, 472 or 471 at the earliest. Any deaths that happen there would be considered the earliest casualties of the war. So, Handir's son Brandir is already born before this.

Handir is a very "off screen" character in Tolkien's story. He will simply be dead already when Túrin arrives in Brethil. By putting him in Gondolin at the beginning of this season, we are demanding to see more of his story. We must show his role in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, whatever that might be.

We do plan to preserve Haldir's death in this battle, but the reckless dragon quest seems to call for a younger man.

 

[Odola]

The plot about penning the dragon must happen at the time of the Nirnath. So, 472 or 471 at the earliest. Any deaths that happen there would be considered the earliest casualties of the war. So, Handir's son Brandir is already born before this.

Handir is a very "off screen" character in Tolkien's story. He will simply be dead already when Túrin arrives in Brethil. By putting him in Gondolin at the beginning of this season, we are demanding to see more of his story. We must show his role in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, whatever that might be.

We do plan to preserve Haldir's death in this battle, but the reckless dragon quest seems to call for a younger man.

So who leads the Haladin after Handir is dead? A 7 year old Brandir the Lame?
But Brandir has to be not more that 7 at most, as otherwise he would be too old to court Nienor. He is born F.A. 465 and Nenor is born F.A. 473 Nirnaeth Arnoediad is F.A. 472. Turin is born F.A 463. And Turin is born 463, so he is two years older than Brandir.

As Brandir is already 8 years older than Nienor, if we add e.g. a decade to his age, we make the age gap between them 18 years = he would be "old enough to be her father". (And too old for Turin to simply boss him around.)

And what about Handir's father's Haldir's death during the Nirnaeth Arnoediad? We must see him and his wife Glóredhel when they do foster Huor and Hurin.
Haldir is the one of the family originally to die in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, shielding the retreat of Fingon. And Haldr's wife dies of grief afterwards the very same year. Do we leave this out altogether?

 

[MithLuin]

As stated, we do intend to include Haldir's death in the Nirnaeth in this season.

If Handir goes on the dragon quest, he doesn't have to die, but it is possible. Nick is also suggesting now that perhaps we would want Handir, not Húrin, to slay Boldog.

Handir could survive the events of the Nirnaeth Arnoediad and return to Brethil after. But he could also die.

It is true that Brandir would be too young to lead the Haladin at this time. We wouldn't change his age; we would have his mother (or someone from among the Haladin) take the role until he came of age, if needed.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

What's the reasoning for adding Handir's death into the mix?

Also, if Finduilas has broken things off with Gwindor, that would make Glaurung's claim of Túrin being a "thief of love" inaccurate if the one whom he's drawing affections isn't attached, right?

 

[MithLuin]

It's a possibility, because we don't actually have tasks for Handir to do after the war. We need to figure out what his full story is, the way we know how Huor and Húrin's stories are going to go.

 

[Ange1e4e5]

It's a possibility, because we don't actually have tasks for Handir to do after the war. We need to figure out what his full story is, the way we know how Huor and Húrin's stories are going to go.

We know that happened to Handir; he gets killed in battle leaving no military forces standing in the way of Nargothrond. In this case he could make a stand for the survivors of his sojourn to retreat.

Unless we switch Handir and Haldir where it looks more like the "perilous old fool" trope.

 

[Odola]

We know that happened to Handir; he gets killed in battle leaving no military forces standing in the way of Nargothrond. In this case he could make a stand for the survivors of his sojourn to retreat.

Unless we switch Handir and Haldir where it looks more like the "perilous old fool" trope.

Thought about switching father and son here too, but that would make both Haldir and Glóredhel alive when Morven is coming down to Doriath in 494. But they would be old then, Haldir would be 80 and Glóredhel would be 79. (Also Haldir would have had an extended rule, as in the texts he dies just one year after his own father Halmir.) While Morwen theoretically could neglect Handir - her "foster-brother-in-law" (and her own cousin - his older wife Beldis) on her way to Doriath, as Handir was her equal in standing; dissing her husband's foster-parents when passing through and not calling on them in their advanced ages would be grave indeed. It would make her dissing them far more problematic, as they are her husband's elders. One would for sure have to call on them when passing though.

This would make Morwen's haughtiness excessive! Do we want that? Maybe we do, but if we do, it should be thought through thoroughly.

464​	Birth of Túrin. Beren leaves Dorthonion and meets Lúthien in the forest of Doriath. (this is 4 years earlier in our version)​
465​	Birth of Brandir the Lame. [Handir (father) age 24 - Beldis (mother) age 54] Quest for the Silmaril. Death of Finrod.​
466​	Birth of Lalaith. Silmaril taken from Morgoth; Beren loses his hand to Carcharoth; the Hunting of the Wolf; first death of Beren Erchamion.​
467​	First death of Lúthien. Lúthien sings Beren back from Mandos.​
468​	Birth of Hunthor, Thingol refuses to join the Union of Maedhros.​
469​	Death of Lalaith (age 3). Orcs driven from Beleriand. Beren and Lúthien return to Middle-earth.​
470​	Births of Dior and Hardang.​
471​	Death of Halmir (age 81), Huor weds Rían.​
472​	Nirnaeth Arnoediad ("Battle of Unnumbered Tears"), Year of Lamentation. Birth of Tuor. Deaths of Fingon, Huor, Glóredhel (age 57), Azaghâl, Haldir (age 58), Hundar and Rían. Turgon becomes High King of the Noldor.​
473​	Birth of Nienor, Túrin sent to Doriath. Fall of the Falas, Brithombar and Eglarest ruined, Gil-galad and Cirdan flee to Balar. Havens of Sirion constructed.​
481​	Túrin and Beleg in Doriath.​
484​	Death of Saeros, Túrin leaves Doriath.​
485​	Túrin kills Forweg and becomes leader of the Gaurwaith.​
486​	Túrin and the outlaws encounter Mim and make their home on Amon Rûdh as the House of Ransom.​
487​	Túrin an outlaw on Amon Rûdh.​
488​	Tuor enslaved.​
489​	Túrin and Beleg on Amon Rûdh, death of Beleg.​
490​	Gwindor leads Túrin to Nargothrond, Túrin becomes captain of Nargothrond.​
491​	Tuor escapes and becomes an outlaw.​
494​	Morwen and Nienor flee to Doriath.​
495​	Battle of the Crossings of the Taeglin, Battle of Tumhalad, Tuor comes to Nevrast. Sack of Nargothrond by Glaurung. Deaths of Finduilas, Orodreth, Gwindor, and Handir (age 54).​
496​	Túrin comes to Brethil. Tuor comes to Gondolin. Morwen Eledhwen and Nienor leave Doriath seeking Túrin; Nienor loses memory, is found by the Men of Brethil, and is given the name Níniel.​
497​	Dior weds Nimloth.​
498​	Túrin weds Níniel.​
499​	Deaths of Glaurung, Brandir (age 34), Hunthor, Nienor (age 26) and Túrin (age 35).​

Beldis is very interesting:

Christopher Tolkien comments that the introduction of Beldis in the genealogies was a later addition by his father to make Brandir a second cousing of Túrin from both the houses of Bëor and of Hador.[2] However, no explanation is given on how Beldis could marry a man thirty years younger than her or give birth to Brandir being 54 years old. Even though both cases are not completely impossible, this was probably a miscalculation on J.R.R. Tolkien's part during this later addition. Even if he should have included another generation between her and Brandir, it is clear he intented Beldis to be Brandir's mother, as he was named after his uncle.[1] https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Beldis

MithLuin, you wish for a story for Handir? Here is one right there in the fragment above:

- why does he marry a mortal woman 30 years his senior? Marrying an elvish princess several millennia one's senior is a wholly different thing to marrying a mortal woman in her 50s as a 20year old man, and especially if one is an heir to a royal bloodline?

Was Handir honour-bond to do it? E.g. has he given her brother Brandir the Elder a promise to protect her? Then why and what for?

Why is Beldis able to give birth at 54(!) (an extremely rare occurrence without an advanced medical or a supernatural intervention)?

Was there perhaps elvish magic involved? Or was Melian involved with her Maian blessing?
But how would Melian come to Brethil? Wandering around in disguise? As we are 4 years ahead in our timeline, did Melian maybe want to recover Luthien's shadow cloak that Luthien might have left there when the injured Beren was tended to for his lost hand?
Such magical devices are better not left in the hands of men, Melian is wise enough to know this...

Children born to women past their child-bearing age are always special in stories. See e.g. in the Bible alone: Sarah and Isaac, or Elizabeth and John the Baptist. So this would make Brandir the Lame a sigh of hope which is then killed off by Turin.

There is for sure a story there!

If we let Beldis' husband Handir die when he is 31, the his widow Beldis would be 61. Would she be able to be a regent for a minor Brandir the Lame and for how long? For a decade until he is 17 and she 71? Haw do we have the leadership strive between her and Hardang, Brandir's younger 2nd cousin and after Brandir's death his elected successor?

When Turin arrives in Brethil Beldis would be 85.

Would she be around to see her only miracle baby Brandir slain heirless by Turin and with it the end of her own bloodline? Would she witness the discussion and vote among the distant relatives for Brandir's succession?

She must have the impression of "having live to long" when she, the oldest of her family is the only one left standing...
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
EDIT: I have checked Beldis parents' ages:
her mother Bregil the daughter of Bregor was 25
and her father Arachon about 26 years old when they had her,
her brother Brandir the elder was 2 years older - born at his parents ages 24 and 25.

So there is room to make Beldis up to a decade younger born 421 instead of 411, when her parents are 35/36 respectively.

This would still let Handir marry a 20 years older woman and be out of ordinary but not as much one 30 years older, and her giving birth to one child when 44 would not be as much of an issue as when 54!

Still a story how Handir in his 20s came to marry a woman in her 50s would be - well, quite interesting... Has Gondolin taught him to disregard age and regard other matters more important? Does he mistrust women while they still look relatively elvish?

 

[Odola]

If I can propose something for Handir and Beldis, this would be as follows:

Background:

as Arachon has no clear house affiliation in-story the text one could make him a foreigner.

As such Arachon could have crossed the Blue Mountains round 405 as an exile expelled from Eriador sentenced to infamy and outlawry for something he or his family has done there and after wandering aimlessly around is granted refugee at the Household of Bregor in Ladros.

Arachon was then 20, Bregil Bregor's fistborn daughter was 19, Bregolas is 12, Barahir his youngerst was 5. (there were also 2 additional daughters: Hirwen 16 and Gilwen age 8 but those seemed to have no offsping so can be ignored in-story).

Bregil and Arachon fell in love after a while, but as Arachon is a complete nobody they decide to elope and flee to Brethil where they live secluded lives alienated from anyone in hiding, and there they have their two children Brandir the Elder and Beldis. As Barahir was a small child at that time, he had not remembered his eldest sister well and it was a matter not talked much about among the family.

The story:

When Carcharoth invades Brethil ([FA466-4 =] 462) both Arachon (age 77) and Bregil (age76) being out foraging withe their two children are killed by him in his rage as they are to old to escape. Brandil the Elder their son who is 53 and Beldis their daughter who is 51 are able to run away.
Brandir manages to escape the beast and defend his sister with his woodsmann skills.
On their way back to their hidden home they come upon Halmir (age 72) and his grandson Handir (21) who are out hunting together. Handir beseechs the two siblings to lead them into safety and Brandir agrees.
When their are about to enter the secret home-shelter of their family Brandir serves as the rear guard and Carcaroth gets hold of his leg and rips it off. The rest manages to pull Brandir in but he cannot be saved.
He demand from Handir in returm for his and his grandfather's lives to make his sister part of his own household and share before Brandir dies.
As such Handir feels bound to marry her, regardless of her advanced age. While Halmir regrets this, he sees this is the only thing for his youngest heir to do.
Halmir had another grandson Hundad by his other son Hundar - so there is another line of succession (Hargand son of Hundad will in fact be the rival and later the choosen (by vote) successor of Brandir the Lame after Brandir's death by Turin).

Brandir the Lame might use his mother's shelter home as a storage place for his herbs in the middle of the woods. He might lead Niniel there one day and recall the history of his grandparents and his uncle and why he is called after him.

 

[MithLuin]

Please keep in mind that we have already shown the altercations between the people of Brethil and Carcharoth in Season 6. We are unlikely to add another subplot with new characters in that time frame. We had Carcharoth's interaction with Emeldir, Morwen, and Rían, as those were the characters we wanted to get to know. We will be introducing Handir as a young man in Season 7, but he will be in Gondolin during the rampage of Carcharoth, and thus cannot be part of that story.

Yes, I am the same MithLuin in the discussion page on the Tolkien Gateway page about Beldis; I am aware of this unusual situation in The War of the Jewels. That seems to be a mistake in the geneology, like the 350 year old Dwalin, when other dwarves die of old age around 250 years of age. Sure, one could come up with a story as to why Dwalin lives to be ancient...or one could surmise that his death year is a typo. In Silm Film, we have been trying not to let our dwarves live longer than 250 years, because we know that seems to be Tolkien's overall intent (though we had to push it with both Telchar and Norn).

So, in the case of Brandir's parentage....it seems clear that Tolkien wished him to have ancestry of both the Haladin and the House of Bëor. But the addition of Beldis to the family tree as Brandir's mother seems to make a mistake about generations, so that there is a missing generation. I would rather take this as a mistake than come up with a story as to why Handir marries a woman much, much older than himself! Ie, in Silm Film, he can marry Beldis' daughter. Or we can name his wife Beldis, but make her of his generation (the solution I have used thus far on our family trees here). Either way, I do not anticipate trying to tell a story of a 55 year old woman giving birth to Brandir. The solution of making her 10 years younger so that it could work biologically is possible, but unnecessary...and likely undesirable.

House of Bëor characters in Silm Film:

House of Haleth in Silm Film:



The majority of the surviving people of the House of Bëor move from Brethil to Dor-lómin at the end of Season 6 (ie, around FA 464). Handir is still in Gondolin at the time. So, if Handir's future wife is of the House of Bëor, but staying behind in Brethil, then we need a reason for her to do so. If she does not accompany Emeldir, Morwen, and Rían, then....why? Most likely, her family has a reason to stay in Brethil, and she stays with them. The easiest solution would be to have her mother (of the House of Bëor) remarry one of the Haladin after the death of her father in the Dagor Bragollach. So, she stays with her mother (in Brethil), and her mother stays with her husband in Brethil.


Since we have not yet come up with the details of the dragon-trap, it is still too soon to determine if this would be a survivable quest. In the cases of Amras and Rhogrin, there are significant reasons to insist that they survive until later. We need them to do something else after the Nirnaeth, and have other fates. With Handir, we have some flexibility in his fate, as we are telling more of his story. I do not think we will want him to die 'off screen' in the Túrin season, so either we will tell the story of his death, or we will change the story of his death. But it's certainly likely enough that we will want Handir to play a role in the battle after the dragon-trap incident, so that we will have to plan the quest in such a way that, should he or any of our other named characters participate, they would have to live through the incident.

 

[Odola]

Please keep in mind that we have already shown the altercations between the people of Brethil and Carcharoth in Season 6.

But we are going back in time in season 7. How will he audience note this, if they do not see some of the events again from another angle?

O.k. if Handir is not there then it does not work, but it would explain nicely why it is stressed so much in the texts that Beldis names her son after her brother. Given that Brandir is the next in line to inherit his fathers position and seemingly his only child, it seems more fitting to have named him after an ancestor on his father's side, than after his maternal uncle. This is not stressed for any other character as far I remember, so it must have had some significance.

So, in the case of Brandir's parentage....it seems clear that Tolkien wished him to have ancestry of both the Haladin and the House of Bëor. But the addition of Beldis to the family tree as Brandir's mother seems to make a mistake about generations, so that there is a missing generation.

Maybe, but Tolkien would have retconned that. There are no records yet in the House of Haleth as far I do understand and he cannot claim "scribal error". Oral tradition would not have made this kind of a mistake. (It makes other kinds of mistakes.) Nor would Bilbo make one -hobbits are passionate genealogist. If a scribal error was made, then by the copyists in Gondor. But by that there would have been several copies of Bilbo's "Translations from the Elvish" in circulation already and it would have been corrected.

I would rather take this as a mistake than come up with a story as to why Handir marries a woman much, much older than himself! Ie, in Silm Film, he can marry Beldis' daughter. Or we can name his wife Beldis, but make her of his generation (the solution I have used thus far on our family trees here). Either way, I do not anticipate trying to tell a story of a 55 year old woman giving birth to Brandir. The solution of making her 10 years younger so that it could work biologically is possible, but unnecessary...and likely undesirable.

Why? It would stress the difference between elves and humans. We are in this and next seasons exploring different kind of romantic/marital unions, we just the bar set with Beren and Luthien. We had Eol and Aredhel, we will have Haldir and Glóredhel, Hurin and Morven, Huor and Rian, Gwindor and Finduilas, Turin and Finduilas, Maeglin and Idril, Tuor and Idril, Brandir and Nienor, Turin and Nienor... Tolkien is for sure interested in exploring various different options of romantic constellation and how those come to be, transpire and come to an end.

Having Handir marrying a woman his age as anybody else does and then just kill a monster - which we have seen done and will see many times in future - is just more of the same and stale. Imho a waste of an opportunity to add something fresh and intriguing in our story and something that the texts themselves do provide:
Miracle babies granted to women past their child-bearing years are such a trope in mythological stories, same with kings or queens (also fairy ones) making the rounds in disguise. Would be nice to include some of those, as it would stress the mythological character of the story, bring some magic back, and make not all of this season just about politics and killings.

So where are Hardang son of Hundad son of Hundar brother of Haldir? (I understand Haldan replaces his son Halmir in this tree). Where is his cousin Manthor son of Meleth son of Hiril, Haldir's sister? We do need both for the Hurin in Brethil story. Where is Manthor's brother Hunthor? All are 2nd cousins to Turin and all die childless as a result of Turin's or Hurin's actions:

But as Manthor died he noted that Húrin and Túrin had brought ruin upon the House of Haleth, for the coming of these two men had led to the deaths of Brandir, Hunthor, Hardang, and himself. https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Manthor

[BTW: Húrin then spoke of his errand to Brethil, which was to accuse Hardang of having deliberately refused aid to his wife Morwen, which led to her death. (source see above)

Well, if she going around publicly dissing all the Haladin members of her husband's family, that would have been no wonder had she reaped what she had sown.]

			Halmir​
			I​
I​		I​		I​		I​
Haldir​		Hundar​		Hareth​		Hiril​
I​		I​		I​		I​
I​		I​		I​		I​
Handir​		Hundad​		Húrin​		Meleth​	_________​	Agathor​
I​		I​		I​			I​
I​		I​		I​		I​		I​
Brandir the Lame †​		Hardang †​		Túrin †​		Manthor †​		Hunthor †​	_________​	Unnamed Wife​

All of those are missing in your tree and we do need them for the story?

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I like the idea of building to Handir as the slayer of Baldog in the Nirnaeth. I‘m thinking that Baldog could kill Haldir, and Handir kill Baldog in return. This parallels the Stockade situation where Baldog ended up as the winner. I’m neutral as to whether I think Handir should also die of wounds received. It depends if we need him for season 8. Brandir will be already alive in Brethil by the battle.

I’m wondering how the folk of Brethil think of the departure of the people of Bëor. The relationship between Handir and his wife could be a way of exploring this over the season, especially in relation to alliance with Dor-Lómin folk over the season.