SilmFilm: The Adaptation: The Audio Drama

[Octoburn]

I do have that folder, but it's unfortunately slightly incomplete. Thanks though.

What exactly is missing for you? All of the episodes should have outlines there. I need to know if permissions are screwy somewhere and everyone can't see everything.

Been looking for other episodes - the Rebellion of the Noldor (3.1) is promising but it too is rather character-heavy. I'm hesitant to do Season 1 material as that is from a period when the scriptwriting team hadn't quite figured everything out yet. Season 2 in general has a lot of characters every episode, switching between the rapidly-growing Noldorin population and the Teleri-later-Sindar. Season 3 is a little heavy on the action (the Burning of the Ships - 3.8 - could work but again, both Feanorians and the descendants of Indis makes a lot of characters). Season 5 also has lots of characters to keep track of. I'm thinking something in Season 4 then. A lot of these have several characters but I think it's few enough that we can make it work. The most significant are 4.1, 4.2, 4.7, 4.9, and 4.13, but I'm actually leaning towards 4.3, which focuses on the beginnings of Noldor-Sindar relations and the problems of the defense of Hithlum and a possible assault on Angband. It's got a couple of side characters but it's mostly Galadriel, Maedhros, Fingolfin, and Celeborn, with appearances from the other Noldorin lords, Thingol and Melian, and our Sindarin representatives.

Honestly, I'm feeling that most of SilmFilm's episodes, by nature, are going to have "too many" characters to seem feasible at first. This would probably be the only positive of the potential for 30-minute episodes, we could have each episode center on one or two groups of characters, whereas as-is, we are looking at dozens of characters in every episode. I'm still not advocating for half-hour episodes, just saying that one be one of the few advantages of that.

This is another reason I would like to start with the Ainulindalle. It's probably the episode with the least characters. Maybe we should just find a good episode (like 2.8) and focus on the main plot and go from there.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

What exactly is missing for you? All of the episodes should have outlines there. I need to know if permissions are screwy somewhere and everyone can't see everything.



Honestly, I'm feeling that most of SilmFilm's episodes, by nature, are going to have "too many" characters to seem feasible at first. This would probably be the only positive of the potential for 30-minute episodes, we could have each episode center on one or two groups of characters, whereas as-is, we are looking at dozens of characters in every episode. I'm still not advocating for half-hour episodes, just saying that one be one of the few advantages of that.

This is another reason I would like to start with the Ainulindalle. It's probably the episode with the least characters. Maybe we should just find a good episode (like 2.8) and focus on the main plot and go from there.

Just to jump in here, the current script with the Ainulindale in it is about 30 minutes long and runs from start to finish. When I have said that it is incomplete, I mean that it is not the proper length for an hour-long episode of TV.

 

[Haerangil]

Writing script would probably be almost half of the work as silmfilm is largely just outlines and no dialogue and scenes.

 

[Octoburn]

Just to jump in here, the current script with the Ainulindale in it is about 30 minutes long and runs from start to finish. When I have said that it is incomplete, I mean that it is not the proper length for an hour-long episode of TV.

This brings up another small issue for me. I have always felt that the way the pilot as outlined is a bit... lacking. I know this is why the frame was expanded for that episode, because the Ainulindalle itself is not much in terms of narrative to fill an entire episode.

So, I discussed this with Rhiannon like 2 years ago, I would likely expand the pilot to include the first two episodes outlined by SilmFilm. I'm sure this will get pushback as well, but I feel that the pilot as laid out now is more Young Adventures of Aragorn, with a shot history lesson than it does a Silmarillion show with a brief frame story. If you combine the two episodes, you can probably do the Music itself in the first 15 minutes or less, and have the rest dedicated to the second episode's stories. I know I will get a lot of "you're just gonna change it!?" again, but I feel this one is needed, and will not set a precedent to just changing stuff Willy Nilly™, I promise. I don't know if I'd want to restructure the whole first season to still give it 13 episodes, but I don't feel good about changing that much.

Writing script would probably be almost half of the work as silmfilm is largely just outlines and no dialogue and scenes.

This also brings up a bit of discussion about style. It would obviously be a lot of work to write all the scripts. But, using the audio drama format, and a narrator gives you a chance to introduce lines of prose and description from Tolkien that would be lost in the visual medium. If you listen to the Sandman audio drama (though the writer/director prefers to call them audio movies, as he feels audio drama is a bit dated) and I promise I don't have stock in them, I just find them amazing- they use a lot of the art direction from Gaiman's scripts as narration, and with Gaiman narrating them, I find it absolutely joyful to listen to. This gives us the chance to introduce passages that would otherwise go unused, and possibly even passages from BoLT or other writing (reworked a bit to fit the style) in ways we cannot in SilmFilm.

 

[Haerangil]

I bet even the dialogue and script that is DONE would be needed to be heavily edited/altered..

No question!

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I'm sure this will get pushback as well, but I feel that the pilot as laid out now is more Young Adventures of Aragorn, with a shot history lesson than it does a Silmarillion show with a brief frame story.

Yes, the frame is designed to give the audience something to contextualize the main story, and since the pilot episode is introducing the viewer (who may not have any previous understanding of Tolkien's world) into the world we are going to inhabit, a lot of heavy lifting is being done by the frame.

I'd have serious concerns about the effectiveness of an adaptation that just jumped into the Ainulindalë without putting it into context. I think it would only communicate with those already "in the know" as it were.

This isn't to say that some changes could be necessary for a successful adaptation, they typically are, and I have no objection thereto. This just seems a strange one to me.

 

[Haerangil]

It's probably also because you writers put so much thought and work into the frame...
To me as a reader or "virtual-audience" it also is a different angle.

 

[Octoburn]

Yes, the frame is designed to give the audience something to contextualize the main story, and since the pilot episode is introducing the viewer (who may not have any previous understanding of Tolkien's world) into the world we are going to inhabit, a lot of heavy lifting is being done by the frame.

I understand contextualizing the story, I have no problem with that. I just feel that, as laid out now, it actually overtakes the actual story.

Imagine watching the pilot for an hour-long tv series. For 45 minutes, the story is about a family preparing for and celebrating Christmas. For 15 minutes, the episode focuses on the birth of Jesus. The next week, would you tune in expecting to see a show about that family, or a show that then follows Jesus' life?

I'd have serious concerns about the effectiveness of an adaptation that just jumped into the Ainulindalë without putting it into context. I think it would only communicate with those already "in the know" as it were.

I am not talking about contextualizing it any less. Just not having the frame distract from the story being told. I still feel that a frame that is more concise and less narrative-driven (although this does work for SilmFilm) would better suit the AudioFilm medium. That said, I am, and have been, more than willing to discuss how to incorporate the existing frames into the medium better. I'm fine with the Aragorn/Elrond/Gilraen frame, I just don't think it takes 3/4 of an episode in the frame to contextualize the audience.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I understand contextualizing the story, I have no problem with that. I just feel that, as laid out now, it actually overtakes the actual story.

Imagine watching the pilot for an hour-long tv series. For 45 minutes, the story is about a family preparing for and celebrating Christmas. For 15 minutes, the episode focuses on the birth of Jesus. The next week, would you tune in expecting to see a show about that family, or a show that then follows Jesus' life?



I am not talking about contextualizing it any less. Just not having the frame distract from the story being told. I still feel that a frame that is more concise and less narrative-driven (although this does work for SilmFilm) would better suit the AudioFilm medium. That said, I am, and have been, more than willing to discuss how to incorporate the existing frames into the medium better. I'm fine with the Aragorn/Elrond/Gilraen frame, I just don't think it takes 3/4 of an episode in the frame to contextualize the audience.

The placement of the Ainulindalë in the final act of the episode is definitely a deliberate choice to accentuate the moment of creation: "Ëa, let these things be!"

Moving that into the middle of an episode and then proceeding to another story would definitely diminish that. I won't claim that to be better or worse, only that it will happen.

 

[MithLuin]

Episode Outlines exist for every episode in Seasons 1-5. If you are having trouble finding any, let me know.

For Season 2, Episode 11 is the closest we come to a 'bottle episode,' in that all the action is happening at Formenos.
The POV character is Nerdanel, but it isn't exactly a small cast - Fëanor, their 7 Sons, Finwë, Indis, child!Celebrimbor, Fingon, Ilmarë, and Melkor all make appearances. Still, it may have half the speaking roles of some other episodes.

Season 6 promises to have some Episodes with limited casts. The episode where Beren and Luthien meet, for instance.

Season 4 Episode 6 is also a very limited cast.

I think that limited cast is helpful for production of a proof of concept episode, but at the end of the day, writing and editing will be more effort than recruiting readers for a recording.

 

[Octoburn]

The placement of the Ainulindalë in the final act of the episode is definitely a deliberate choice to accentuate the moment of creation: "Ëa, let these things be!"

Moving that into the middle of an episode and then proceeding to another story would definitely diminish that. I won't claim that to be better or worse, only that it will happen.

The placement of the Ainulindalë in the final act of the episode is definitely a deliberate choice to accentuate the moment of creation: "Ëa, let these things be!"

Moving that into the middle of an episode and then proceeding to another story would definitely diminish that. I won't claim that to be better or worse, only that it will happen.

Understandable. My main concern is still the brevity of the episode. It was performed, as written, in half an hour. Adding even more Adventures of Young Aragorn subplot would be detrimental at that point, and theres really not much you can do to expand the Music itself. So we either need to take the story a few steps beyond the actual Music, or concede that the Music just isn't suitable for this medium.

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

Understandable. My main concern is still the brevity of the episode. It was performed, as written, in half an hour. Adding even more Adventures of Young Aragorn subplot would be detrimental at that point, and theres really not much you can do to expand the Music itself. So we either need to take the story a few steps beyond the actual Music, or concede that the Music just isn't suitable for this medium.

My original point was that as written, it could be a complete half hour story, without any addition.

I disagree that investing more in some of our most important characters is in any way detrimental, so if I ever do get a chance to expand it to a full hour, it will be through additions to the frame, which is a critical part of our overall story.

 

[kanji_d]

I'm with Nicholas on this one, I think the frame is especially valuable with regards to the Ainulindale, because the Ainulindale is a very short story. The bulk of it is Tolkienian prose - there's very little actual action. Iluvatar, Ainur, Music, Themes, Melkor, Conflict, Vision, Ea. Tolkien spends a good portion just explaining bits about the universe which are much better explained later in the season. And, since we're working around the Music itself for now, that takes even less time away from the actual story. It's also not like it's really a distraction, because we don't have to interrupt the Ainulindale itself - we can surround it with the frame without interrupting it. Furthermore, I'm not quite sure that a layperson would just assume we're doing Young Aragorn from listening to or watching the show. If we were, then we wouldn't be digressing to discuss the Creation. And it's not like it's a plot we're abandoning, we follow his education through the whole season and see him again in Season 3 (depending on if and how we modify the frame) and Season 6 (probably), and twenty years down the line we'll have whole episodes. Anyway, to sum up, I don't think the frame is of particular issue with regards to the Ainulindale.

 

[kanji_d]

Episode Outlines exist for every episode in Seasons 1-5. If you are having trouble finding any, let me know.

For Season 2, Episode 11 is the closest we come to a 'bottle episode,' in that all the action is happening at Formenos.
The POV character is Nerdanel, but it isn't exactly a small cast - Fëanor, their 7 Sons, Finwë, Indis, child!Celebrimbor, Fingon, Ilmarë, and Melkor all make appearances. Still, it may have half the speaking roles of some other episodes.

Season 6 promises to have some Episodes with limited casts. The episode where Beren and Luthien meet, for instance.

Season 4 Episode 6 is also a very limited cast.

I think that limited cast is helpful for production of a proof of concept episode, but at the end of the day, writing and editing will be more effort than recruiting readers for a recording.

Just took a look at 4.6 - I think that's a good choice honestly. One of my favorites from that season, and generally decently well-suited to the audio format. There's one short battle scene, but it's not large and gives us a chance to test out how we want to do that in the future. Other than that, all three of the main plots are mostly between two people (Angrod/Edhellos, Cirdan/Gwiwileth, Caranthir/Telchar), and are mostly dialogue, which makes it easier to bring over to the audio format. I support using that as our proof-of-concept.

 

[Octoburn]

My original point was that as written, it could be a complete half hour story, without any addition.

I disagree that investing more in some of our most important characters is in any way detrimental, so if I ever do get a chance to expand it to a full hour, it will be through additions to the frame, which is a critical part of our overall story.

I'm with Nicholas on this one, I think the frame is especially valuable with regards to the Ainulindale, because the Ainulindale is a very short story. The bulk of it is Tolkienian prose - there's very little actual action. Iluvatar, Ainur, Music, Themes, Melkor, Conflict, Vision, Ea. Tolkien spends a good portion just explaining bits about the universe which are much better explained later in the season. And, since we're working around the Music itself for now, that takes even less time away from the actual story. It's also not like it's really a distraction, because we don't have to interrupt the Ainulindale itself - we can surround it with the frame without interrupting it. Furthermore, I'm not quite sure that a layperson would just assume we're doing Young Aragorn from listening to or watching the show. If we were, then we wouldn't be digressing to discuss the Creation. And it's not like it's a plot we're abandoning, we follow his education through the whole season and see him again in Season 3 (depending on if and how we modify the frame) and Season 6 (probably), and twenty years down the line we'll have whole episodes. Anyway, to sum up, I don't think the frame is of particular issue with regards to the Ainulindale.

I said I was willing to listen to both sides of this argument and I have. Since I seem to be the only one of this opinion, I will (slightly begrudgingly ) concede the point.

I was listening to the LOTR audio drama, and am quite taken by just how much adaptation has taken place. More in structure than in actually changing the story. It's a bit jarring that they followed Gandalf all the way from his meeting with Radagast up to departing Rohan with Shadowfax. It kind of takes some of the mystery out of the "where is Gandalf?" thread, once we pick back up with Frodo leaving Crickhollow.

 

[Haerangil]

I wouldn't do a frame for an audiodrama either, i would do just an introduction... personally i wouldn't even have done the frame for the tv adaption,
But i see why people are defending what they wrote and worked on and do like and enjoy.

If one would want to do an audio adaption free from silmfilm that would mean to completely start again from zero, a completely new project. Would that be not even less disrespectful than using only some elements from finished silmfilm work? Ignoring it completely?

 

[Nicholas Palazzo]

I wouldn't do a frame for an audiodrama either, i would do just an introduction... personally i wouldn't even have done the frame for the tv adaption,
But i see why people are defending what they wrote and worked on and do like and enjoy.

If one would want to do an audio adaption free from silmfilm that would mean to completely start again from zero, a completely new project. Would that be not even less disrespectful than using only some elements from finished silmfilm work? Ignoring it completely?

I'm not sure it's fair to say that we're defending decisions of the hosts because we have a time investment. The decisions of the hosts are SilmFilm. They have made many decisions with which I disagree, but those decisions are still what SilmFilm is. It just so happens that I think they made the right call on the frame story issue.


However, I do think that people should feel free to take inspiration from the project, and as @Haerangil says, do something completely their own, as a private project or in groups. There are certainly people who are or have been attached to this project who have done that with art, or even scripts they have written which are not attached to the project, but do take material from it.

 

[Octoburn]

I'm not sure it's fair to say that we're defending decisions of the hosts because we have a time investment. The decisions of the hosts are SilmFilm. They have made many decisions with which I disagree, but those decisions are still what SilmFilm is. It just so happens that I think they made the right call on the frame story issue.

I understand this, and the reasoning behind it. But, you also have to consider that the decisions that have been made, have been made with it being a visual medium in mind. And for the most part (I can honestly only think of 2 things I've disagreed with, decision-wise, on the creative side; casting is a whole other issue ) I love the decisions that are made.

However, I do think that people should feel free to take inspiration from the project, and as @Haerangil says, do something completely their own, as a private project or in groups. There are certainly people who are or have been attached to this project who have done that with art, or even scripts they have written which are not attached to the project, but do take material from it.

As I prefaced in the first post, I have been mulling doing something like this for 15+ years. I still have an old screenplay from when I was trying to write Beren and Luthien. I have outlines for the Three Great Tales as Graphic Novels. I have an outline for doing a 6 or 7 season television series. I toss that all aside to say "SilmFilm is doing it how it should be done." With all the work I have put into other thought-projects, I literally do not even want to touch a Silmarillion adaptation if it's not done how SilmFilm is doing it. And I don't want to just simply cherry-pick ideas I like (which is basically all of them) and go about calling it my own. I wouldn't feel right about doing that. Hence, I proposed it as a bit of a spin-off adaptation.

 

[kanji_d]

I was listening to the LOTR audio drama, and am quite taken by just how much adaptation has taken place. More in structure than in actually changing the story. It's a bit jarring that they followed Gandalf all the way from his meeting with Radagast up to departing Rohan with Shadowfax. It kind of takes some of the mystery out of the "where is Gandalf?" thread, once we pick back up with Frodo leaving Crickhollow.

Yeah, I'm definitely not thinking we do quite that much shifting around, and I'm in favor of doing mostly the same scenes in the same order as SilmFilm does them, mostly shifting around how we do dialogue and action to suit the new medium. But that's probably going to come up on a case-by-case bases as we go through the writing process.

Edit: I was mulling it over again and perhaps doing what the LOTR adaptation does with regards to style (mostly using Tolkien's words and having the action spoken by a narrato) may not be the best choice, but it might work depending on how we do the frame.

 

[Octoburn]

Yeah, I'm definitely not thinking we do quite that much shifting around, and I'm in favor of doing mostly the same scenes in the same order as SilmFilm does them, mostly shifting around how we do dialogue and action to suit the new medium. But that's probably going to come up on a case-by-case bases as we go through the writing process.

Definitely would be a case-by-case basis.

Edit: I was mulling it over again and perhaps doing what the LOTR adaptation does with regards to style (mostly using Tolkien's words and having the action spoken by a narrato) may not be the best choice, but it might work depending on how we do the frame.

I'm not a huge fan of over-narration myself, but I don't think the LOTR (I just finished Fellowship) is overdone. But what I also don't like is the corny "oh, this just happened!" dialogue. I just heard it in the Chamber of Mazarbul. I think I heard a bow twang and then someone says "Oh! right through the helmet!" I just shook my head and said, that's not how I want to do it. A lot of that happens in the Marvel stuff I was talking about earlier. You hear clattering of someone falling followed by someone saying "that was quite a spill! need a hand?" There has to be a good balance, and it can be tricky.