The other red star?

[Rachel Port]

If Bilbo had been the Ringbearer, who would have been his Sam? The logical person would have been Frodo, but that would have been impossible because of the Ring. Could Sam have gone with him? I don't know if that would have made sense. Wouldn't Frodo still have needed him? Who, then?

 

[Flammifer]

Thanks Rachel,

In that thread I made a case for Borgil not being Mars. But, I think Asterion made a better case, and Borgil (and the star in Rivendell) probably are Mars.

 

[Flammifer]

If Bilbo had been the Ringbearer, who would have been his Sam? The logical person would have been Frodo, but that would have been impossible because of the Ring. Could Sam have gone with him? I don't know if that would have made sense. Wouldn't Frodo still have needed him? Who, then?

Gandalf and Gimli, I would guess. Gimli might play a role somewhat analogous to that of Wiglaf in 'Beowulf'?

 

[Odola]

Sauron: "And who exactly are you?"

Bilbo: "Mushroom hunter; Ferry rider; I have been under a tree but not inside it; Buried alive and escaped the dead; He who jumped the moon, but came down too soon; wraithified and unwraithified; He who frequently emerges from underground; Known as 'hotfoot' among Trolls; I come from over the water and by water; I am prisoner and escapee; Spider's bane; but, who are you? And don't you seem to be missing something? A whole finger I believe!

😀

Or, maybe Bilbo would have learned something and remembered, "Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!"

Do not think so. There areas where Bilbo is simply uncorrectable. He is a star, after all.

 

[JJ48]

Here's an interesting little thought experiment:

Why did JRRT make Frodo the protagonist of TLOTR instead of Bilbo?

It would seem unsurprising for JRRT to mirror his beloved 'Beowulf'. Beowulf is in two parts: Beowulf's fight against Grendel and Mother as a young man, and Beowulf's fight against the Dragon as an old man.

Why not Bilbo's quest to Erebor as a young Hobbit, and Bilbo's quest of the Ring as an old Hobbit?

Bilbo might be a better choice by Providence as Ring-bearer than Frodo? He is more experienced. He has more Estel. He is more willing. There is really no evidence that he would find it harder to resist the Ring than Frodo, or that he would be less likely to give it up and throw it into the fire?

Compare and contrast Bilbo and Frodo. Why did JRRT not just mirror 'Beowulf' and make Bilbo the protagonist of both quests? What is it about the differences between Bilbo and Frodo which JRRT thought were important? Why create a new protagonist for TLOTR?

I believe in History of Middle-earth, Tolkien considered Bilbo as the protagonist of the sequel initially, but eventually decided on having another hobbit be the focus since he had already told readers that, "[Bilbo] remained very happy to the end of his days, and those were extraordinarily long."

 

[Willomir]

You guys are getting close to the Balrog and having just completed episode 212 I do not think I will make it in time to ask my burning question in person, therefore my question for Narnion ahead of time is:
Back in Rivendell, did Frodo see the Flame of Udûn at a large distance, when he saw the red shining star low in the South?

In episode 198 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings', the 'Time Passes' slide quotes:

A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.

Professor Corey Olson concluded in this session that what Frodo actually seems to have seen is the planet Mars, though in antiquity, planets were referred to as stars, alongside the stars, as regular observers called them “wandering stars”.

The problem with this conclusion is that planets (aka the wandering stars) follow the path of the Sun and Moon in the sky, since these celestial bodies are all in the ecliptic plane of our Solar system. Therefore Mars can only be low in the sky in the East or in the West, and in the South Mars will always be high in the sky just like the Sun and Moon, especially in autumn and winter nights.

Now in episode 198 there was some discussion, if Frodo was seeing the burning Eye of Sauron. Professor Corey Olson did not like that idea, and I agree with him on that. The Dark Tower Barad-dûr (where the eye resides) is in the southeast, and therefore it should be obscured by the Misty Mountains. This was further confirmed for me in the next episode, when professor Corey Olsen was showing the map of Middle Earth:

While listening to episode 198 I first wanted to suggest, that the red star light could somehow come from Saruman's sorcery on top of Isengard's tower Orthanc. When I looked at the map during episode 199, I found that Isengard is indeed located straight South from Rivendell. However, I also observed that Moria Gate is right in between these two locations. Hence why I am now wondering if Frodo actually gazed all the way from Rivendell upon the Flame of Udûn as one star low in the South shone red, perhaps in the act of trying to spy on Elrond's troops maybe...? I am very curious what your thoughts are on this possibility?

EDIT: I have just reached and finished episode 217 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast, where on the 'An Un-Merry Christmas' slide, when the fellowship is in the process of departure from Rivendell, Elrond is warning the party the following:

'You should fear the many eyes of the servants of Sauron' he said. 'I do not doubt that news of the discomfiture of the Riders has already reached him, and he will be filled with wrath. Soon now his spies on foot and wing will be abroad in the northern lands. Even of the sky above you must be aware as you go on your way.'

The overall conclusion of this 217th session was, that this is just mere foreshadowing of the crebain and Elrond had somehow foreseen this. At the beginning of the session there was mention made of the red star, which Frodo had seen from his window in Rivendell, but it was unfortunately only connected to Frodo's state of mind, not to Elrond's worry at all. Couldn't Elrond simply also have seen that star, which had shone red low in the South, burning like a watchful eye, just like Frodo had seen it, instead of magically foreseeing the future somehow? Also, is it therefore possible that perhaps a discomfited Black Rider or the Witch King himself had retreated from the Greyflood to Moria Gate and awakened the Flame of Udûn Balrog?

 

[Flammifer]

Good post Willomir.

I think that Asterion made a very good and convincing case in this forum (complete with star chart) for the Rivendell star being 'Borgil' and Mars. (Link below)

A

Thread 'Identification of Borgil as Mars'

Jan 11, 2021

Hi! As already discussed in Episode 13 around the 1:22:00 mark, "red Borgil" is normally associated to Aldebaran, with other candidates being Betlegeuse and Mars. I think Betlegeuse can be easily discarded, and Mars is normally discarded due to two reasons:

1. Although it can be seen around midnight in late September below the Pleiades (Remmirath) and above Orion (Menelmacar), this is rarely the case.

2. The name for Mars is elsewhere (Morgoth's Ring) given as Carnil/Karnil.

I have read an interesting article (https://funkmon.wordpress.com/2014/01/06/identifying-borgil/) where it...

• Asterion
• Replies: 40
• Forum: Let's talk about the course!

• 

Mars is low in the south in December, if you are far north (latitude of Oxford). Also, the red star is higher in the sky than you might think. "It glared above the trees on the brink of the valley". So, it might be low above the trees, but Frodo is looking up from the bottom of the valley towards the brink, and the trees must reach circa 100 feet above the brink, so, if looking towards a flat horizon, the red star would be higher above it than the "low in the south" it appeared to Frodo.

I think the red star Frodo is looking at is Mars.

From Rivendell to the peak of Zirakzigil is about 125 miles. The peak of Zirakzigil would have to be over 10,000 feet higher in elevation than Rivendell for a flame on it to be visible (if there was a clear line of sight from Rivendell to Zirakzigil - which there isn't, as the 'brink of the valley' must obscure the sight-lines from Rivendell to the south). (Due to the curvature of the Earth (assume same for Middle-earth? - It is our Earth, now round, after all) visibility of 10,000 feet is 123 miles). Rivendell, in the foothills of the Misty Mountains, must be at a considerable elevation. For the peak of Zirakzigil to be 10,000 feet higher, Zirakzigil would probably have to be a 15,000 or 16,000 ft. mountain, which I doubt it is?

Anyway, what would the 'Flame of Udun' (As Gandalf calls the Balrog) be doing on the peak of Zirakzigil? He knows how to get there, as that is where he flees, pursued by Gandalf. But, does he spend time there? Or rather deep near the roots of the mountains?

I think the red star is Mars. Read Asterion's post. He makes a very convincing case.

 

[Willomir]

Good post Willomir.

I think that Asterion made a very good and convincing case in this forum (complete with star chart) for the Rivendell star being 'Borgil' and Mars. (Link below)

A

Thread 'Identification of Borgil as Mars'

Jan 11, 2021

Hi! As already discussed in Episode 13 around the 1:22:00 mark, "red Borgil" is normally associated to Aldebaran, with other candidates being Betlegeuse and Mars. I think Betlegeuse can be easily discarded, and Mars is normally discarded due to two reasons:

1. Although it can be seen around midnight in late September below the Pleiades (Remmirath) and above Orion (Menelmacar), this is rarely the case.

2. The name for Mars is elsewhere (Morgoth's Ring) given as Carnil/Karnil.

I have read an interesting article (https://funkmon.wordpress.com/2014/01/06/identifying-borgil/) where it...

• Asterion
• Replies: 40
• Forum: Let's talk about the course!

• 

Mars is low in the south in December, if you are far north (latitude of Oxford). Also, the red star is higher in the sky than you might think. "It glared above the trees on the brink of the valley". So, it might be low above the trees, but Frodo is looking up from the bottom of the valley towards the brink, and the trees must reach circa 100 feet above the brink, so, if looking towards a flat horizon, the red star would be higher above it than the "low in the south" it appeared to Frodo.

I think the red star Frodo is looking at is Mars.

From Rivendell to the peak of Zirakzigil is about 125 miles. The peak of Zirakzigil would have to be over 10,000 feet higher in elevation than Rivendell for a flame on it to be visible (if there was a clear line of sight from Rivendell to Zirakzigil - which there isn't, as the 'brink of the valley' must obscure the sight-lines from Rivendell to the south). (Due to the curvature of the Earth (assume same for Middle-earth? - It is our Earth, now round, after all) visibility of 10,000 feet is 123 miles). Rivendell, in the foothills of the Misty Mountains, must be at a considerable elevation. For the peak of Zirakzigil to be 10,000 feet higher, Zirakzigil would probably have to be a 15,000 or 16,000 ft. mountain, which I doubt it is?

Anyway, what would the 'Flame of Udun' (As Gandalf calls the Balrog) be doing on the peak of Zirakzigil? He knows how to get there, as that is where he flees, pursued by Gandalf. But, does he spend time there? Or rather deep near the roots of the mountains?

I think the red star is Mars. Read Asterion's post. He makes a very convincing case.

Thank you for your reply, @Flammifer , and I did read that forum post before. In that referenced forum thread @Asterion made the case that Borgil = Mars, which I am not disputing at all: I am disputing whether Frodo's star is a planet or not, which is why I wrote my post in this forum thread instead of @Asterion's forum thread. I have had another look further into @Asterion's forum thread just now and I did indeed find a reply, where @Asterion mentions Frodo's observed glaring red star, where he has written:

In the chapter "The Ring Goes South" there is another reference to a red star:

"But low in the South one star shone red. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley."

This scene takes place right after a full moon in early November (or late October), and in those weeks both Betelgeuse and Aldebaran can be seen from Oxford around midnight due South, and in 1943 Mars was there too, so I think there is a good chance this red star is Borgil too.

The funny thing is that, while reading that passage and musing about Borgil, I looked South out of my window and there they were, the three main alternatives for Borgil (Aldebaran, Betelgeuse and Mars) all neatly lined up and looking down on me! If you are in the Northern hemisphere and want to check them out too, today and during the next month or so they will be clearly visible and almost lined up right after sunset up high due South and setting due West as the night advances. It's not common to see Mars in such a position, so now it's a good opportunity to compare the three Borgil possibilities with the naked eye!

Hence in the 'Stellarium' free open source program (which you can download and use for yourselves too by the way) I have recreated what the Oxford's night sky looks like when Mars is south at Halloween's very early morrow hour of 4am in @Asterion's mentioned year 1943:


As you can see for yourselves Mars is (together with Saturn) really high up in the sky when it is in the south. It is as high up in the sky as an April/May high-noon Sun during an Oxford's spring day. I had to actually zoom out, "fish-eye" distorting the horizon, to even get both the horizon and the planet Mars in the same picture. So, if the red star as observed by Frodo from Rivendell is a planet (or even the star Aldebaran or Betelgeuse), the trees had to be really up-close to Frodo's window to be touching this burning watchful eye, which they weren't: the trees were on the brink of the valley! Therefore I do not believe the glaring watchful eye is either a planet or a star near the ecliptic plane: I still suspect it is actually the Flame of Udûn probably in the act of surveying the lands for Sauron's, Saruman's, or his own army. And I now also think Elrond and Gandalf have maybe suspected this as well, however, they did not share this scary information with the fellowship because they could not obtain solid confirmation of this possibility, so they did not want to needlessly worry & unnecessarily frighten the fellowship with their possible paranoia... 🙁

Have I made a strong enough case here now to perhaps have changed your mind too?

 

[Odola]

Thank you for your reply, @Flammifer , and I did read that forum post before. In that referenced forum thread @Asterion made the case that Borgil = Mars, which I am not disputing at all: I am disputing whether Frodo's star is a planet or not, which is why I wrote my post in this forum thread instead of @Asterion's forum thread. I have had another look further into @Asterion's forum thread just now and I did indeed find a reply, where @Asterion mentions Frodo's observed glaring red star, where he has written:


Hence in the 'Stellarium' free open source program (which you can download and use for yourselves too by the way) I have recreated what the Oxford's night sky looks like when Mars is south at Halloween's very early morrow hour of 4am in @Asterion's mentioned year 1943:
View attachment 5419

As you can see for yourselves Mars is (together with Saturn) really high up in the sky when it is in the south. It is as high up in the sky as an April/May high-noon Sun during an Oxford's spring day. I had to actually zoom out, "fish-eye" distorting the horizon, to even get both the horizon and the planet Mars in the same picture. So, if the red star as observed by Frodo from Rivendell is a planet (or even the star Aldebaran or Betelgeuse), the trees had to be really up-close to Frodo's window to be touching this burning watchful eye, which they weren't: the trees were on the brink of the valley! Therefore I do not believe the glaring watchful eye is either a planet or a star near the ecliptic plane: I still suspect it is actually the Flame of Udûn probably in the act of surveying the lands for Sauron's, Saruman's, or his own army. And I now also think Elrond and Gandalf have maybe suspected this as well, however, they did not share this scary information with the fellowship because they could not obtain solid confirmation of this possibility, so they did not want to needlessly worry & unnecessarily frighten the fellowship with their possible paranoia... 🙁

Have I made a strong enough case here now to perhaps have changed your mind too?

Remember that Rivendell is in a ravine, you have to account for the cliff and the tree line high up on the edge on the cliff.

 

[Willomir]

Remember that Rivendell is in a ravine, you have to account for the cliff and the tree line high up on the edge on the cliff.
View attachment 5420

First of all, I really appreciate the effort of the making of your beautiful sketch of Rivendell and Frodo's potential line of sight. It's genuinely a very nice piece of art, @Odola . 🙂

However, I still have to defend my own point of view, and from your drawing I concluded that you seem to perhaps underestimate the planet's altitude when it is in the south. For starters though, professor Tolkien's text does not mention a "tree line high up on the edge on the cliff" that is visible south from Frodo's window, the text actually says the trees are on the brink of the valley. Nonetheless, let us entertain with the thought that the trees were on some elevation anyway. I am going to be somewhat technical here, since I went back into the 'Stellarium' open source program (which should be downloadable for free from your app store, if you want to give it a go for yourself) and I turned on the Azimuth/Altitude grid to gather some solid data and made the following screenshot for evidence sake:

In this screenshot you can see Mars is at an altitude of approximately 62 degrees in Oxford, England, when this planet was located in the south at 4am on Halloween 1943.

The human upper vertical field of view is about 60 degrees, however, the outer periphery of the human vision can only see in black & white. Colour can only be observed in the central vision, which has a vertical limit of about 30 degrees up (see diagram below linked from Wikipedia):

So in order to observe this southern wandering star/planet and determine its red colour, the observer's head must be tilted at least 32 degrees backwards.

When someone has to tilt their head that far back to observe the red planet, would one still describe this as "low in the South one star shone red"? What is the definition of 'low' here really?
If you divide the vertical view in two sections, 'low' could be defined as the view from 0 to 45 degrees, and 'high' would be from 45 degrees to 90 degrees, where Mars would be residing. Even when the vertical view were to be divided into three sections, where 'low' = 0-30 degrees, 'mid' = 30-60 degrees, and 'high' = 60-90 degrees, the planet Mars would still be high up in the sky.
And if the horizon has been elevated by cliffs and the lower vertical field of view on the night sky has been reduced to let's say a 50 degrees altitude, would one really give a 50-70 degrees altitude range still as a "low" definition then? It is really steep, steeper than what has been drawn in the wonderful illustration.
Therefore I do not think the red star low in the south is a planet, Mars is really high up in the night sky and is shinning its red hue down on a very steep angle in the south. I hope you have been convinced with this evidence and maybe have given the Flame of Udûn some serious consideration here as the burning watchful eye here perhaps...?
I am of course looking forward to hearing any counterarguments and what exactly might still be bothersome with these factoids. 🙂

 

[Odola]

For starters though, professor Tolkien's text does not mention a "tree line high up on the edge on the cliff" that is visible south from Frodo's window, the text actually says the trees are on the brink of the valley.

well, we see from Tolkien's own drawings of Rivendel that "brink of the valley" = "edge on the cliff" https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GRbeJzzXgAAeUHI?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://museoteca.com/r/en/work/7376/j_r_r_tolkien/the_fair_valley_of_rivendell_/!/

 

[Willomir]

well, we see from Tolkien's own drawings of Rivendel that "brink of the valley" = "edge on the cliff" https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GRbeJzzXgAAeUHI?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://museoteca.com/r/en/work/7376/j_r_r_tolkien/the_fair_valley_of_rivendell_/!/

Hmm, these are interesting drawings, @Odola hummm... 😕 They are indeed steep, but would one define the planet as "low in the South" when that "one star shone red" above the trees on the edge on the cliff?
And in which building would Frodo's window be? And there are mountains in the background as well. Could one of them be Zirakzigil as @Flammifer has mentioned in his previous own response?

Let me put the PBS Twitter image in this post, so people do not have to open another browser tab:

And the Museoteca image:

The tallest mountain is Caradhras , isn't it?

 

[Odola]

The caption of the first drawing says that is the view East - as such South would be to the right. We see the wall of the Misty Mountains straight East.

 

[Willomir]

The caption of the first drawing says that is the view East - as such South would be to the right. We see the wall of the Misty Mountains straight East.

@Odola & @Flammifer , I concede, the two Tolkien's drawings of Rivendell have won me over to team Borgil. In my defense the sentence "But low in the South one star shone red." is still confusing as heck to me. If 'star' is replaced with 'Sun' and we pretend it is about an April/May spring day, then that sentence would make no sense at all to me:

"But low in the south the Sun shone yellow."

Having seen how the Bruinen river has carved tall walls of rock on either side of the valley over time in the drawings of Tolkien, I have to admit the red star that Frodo spotted through the window is probably indeed the red planet. I was so sure it was the Flame of Udûn for a while, because in Moria Gandalf comes to the conclusion so quickly that what Pippin has awakened is a Balrog without seeing the creature itself, I thought that Gandalf must have been suspecting it for a loooong while. Also in episode 225 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast professor Corey Olsen was inconclusively wondering what Gandalf and Elrond were doing in the house while everyone else was waiting outside for them. I was convinced back then that those two wise men were still discussing if they should tell the fellowship about the Flame of Udûn or not, after both having observed that red star low in the South (with uppercase S by the way) just like Frodo had observed it from his window and both gone deep into the lore in the libraries of Rivendell.
By the way I was even prepared to link the Red Balrog to the Red Baron as another World War I reference:

But having been convinced otherwise now, I now think that that would probably have been a step too far perhaps... 🙄
Currently I have just finished episode 237 and the Crebain are about to visit the fellowship, which could also be linked to a squadron of World War I fighter aces, but maybe that's too far fetched too.
However, I will still look for more evidence for Gandalf's prior knowledge of the Balrog as I continue through the episodes of this podcast! 😀

 

[Flammifer]

Hmm, these are interesting drawings, @Odola hummm... 😕 They are indeed steep, but would one define the planet as "low in the South" when that "one star shone red" above the trees on the edge on the cliff?
And in which building would Frodo's window be? And there are mountains in the background as well. Could one of them be Zirakzigil as @Flammifer has mentioned in his previous own response?

Let me put the PBS Twitter image in this post, so people do not have to open another browser tab:

And the Museoteca image:

The tallest mountain is Caradhras , isn't it?

No. The view is looking east. Those mountains are the Misty Mountains east of Rivendell (around the Dwarf Road pass). They are only 40 miles east of Rivendell, whereas Zirakzigle

Hmm, these are interesting drawings, @Odola hummm... 😕 They are indeed steep, but would one define the planet as "low in the South" when that "one star shone red" above the trees on the edge on the cliff?
And in which building would Frodo's window be? And there are mountains in the background as well. Could one of them be Zirakzigil as @Flammifer has mentioned in his previous own response?

Let me put the PBS Twitter image in this post, so people do not have to open another browser tab:

And the Museoteca image:

The tallest mountain is Caradhras , isn't it?

No. The mountains in this painting are those to the east of Rivendell (around the Dwarf Road pass). Their peaks are only 40 miles east of Rivendell, whereas Zirakzigil is 125 miles south of Rivendell. The chances of being able to see the peak of Zirakzigil (or even a very bright light on the peak of Zirakzigil) that far away from Rivendell would be slim even if there was flat ground in between. Being able to see the peak over those high valley sides and the trees on top should not be possible.

 

[Willomir]

No. The mountains in this painting are those to the east of Rivendell (around the Dwarf Road pass). Their peaks are only 40 miles east of Rivendell, whereas Zirakzigil is 125 miles south of Rivendell. The chances of being able to see the peak of Zirakzigil (or even a very bright light on the peak of Zirakzigil) that far away from Rivendell would be slim even if there was flat ground in between. Being able to see the peak over those high valley sides and the trees on top should not be possible.

I agree, if the mountain in the illustration (Has this mountain been named in 'The Hobbit' book perhaps or elsewhere by the way?) is 40 miles away, then Zirakzigil should be 3 times smaller on the horizon assuming both peaks have similar heights, since it is about 3 times farther away (not accounting for the curvature of the Middle Earth planet) at a 125 miles (or 200 kilometers for us metric people) distance.

However, even though I am fairly convinced the red star is Borgil/Mars, there is still quite some doubt. Mostly because of Aragorn's wild behavior before the fellowship's defeat by Caradhras the Cruel. In episode 236 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast the 'Aragorn Ends Laughter' slide is being discussed, which quotes the following:

'What is the matter, Strider?' Merry called up. 'What are you looking for? Do you miss the East Wind?'
'No indeed,' he answered. 'But I miss something. I have been in the country of Hollin in many seasons. No folk dwell here now, but many other creatures live here at all times, especially birds. Yet now all things but you are silent. I can feel it. There is no sound for miles about us, and your voices seem to make the ground echo. I do not understand it.'
Gandalf looked up with sudden interest. 'But what do you guess is the reason?' he asked. 'Is there more in it than surprise at seeing four hobbits, not to mention the rest of us, where people are so seldom seen or heard?'
'I hope that is it,' answered Aragorn. 'But I have a sense of watchfulness, and of fear, that I never had before.'
'Then we must be careful,' said Gandalf. 'If you bring a Ranger with you, it is well to pay attention to him, especially if the Ranger is Aragorn. We must stop talking aloud, rest quietly, and set the watch.'

If we keep my hypothesis alive, where Gandalf has spotted the red star in Rivendell and suspected he was looking at the Flame of Udûn, then Gandalf should be looking for further signs of the Balrog. Aragorn is still cautious here and not in the know yet of Gandalf's suspicion.

In episode 244 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast the 'Dark and Secret' slide is being discussed, where Frodo overhears Gandalf and Aragorn having the following debate:

'Who knows indeed!' said Gandalf. 'But there is another way, and not by the pass of Caradhras: the dark and secret way that we have spoken of.'
'But let us not speak of it again! Not yet. Say nothing to the others, I beg, not until it is plain that there is no other way.'
'We must decide before we go further,' answered Gandalf.
'Then let us weigh the matter in our minds, while the others rest and sleep,' said Aragorn.

I think, Aragorn freaking out here makes a lot more sense, if Gandalf has previously told the Ranger that he is suspecting he has spotted the Flame of Udûn as the red star low in the South, when he had spoken of the dark and secret way with Aragorn.

In episode 250 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast the slide labelled 'The Predicament' is discussed, which starts with:

'We cannot go further tonight,' said Boromir. 'Let those call it the wind who will; there are fell voices on the air; and these stones are aimed at us.'
'I do call it the wind,' said Aragorn. 'But that does not make what you say untrue. There are many evil and unfriendly things in the world that have little love for those that go on two legs, and yet are not in league with Sauron, but have purposes of their own. Some have been in this world longer than he.'
'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name,' said Gimli, 'long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands.'
'It matters little who is the enemy, if we cannot beat off his attack,' said Gandalf.

Has the Flame of Udûn Balrog been in Middle Earth longer than Sauron?
Did Gandalf change the subject, because he is worried the fellowship will freak out, just like Aragorn has been freaked out?
Hindsight is of course 20/20, but taking on a mountain nicknamed 'The Cruel' in the middle of winter of all times was a really dumb leadership decision of Aragorn. What drove him to make this dangerous decision? I think the story would be more logical if Aragorn had been made in the know about the Balrog by Gandalf...

Hence this is why there is still some doubt about the red star low in the South. I have completed the Caradhras chapter now and still have to face the wolves, so you know where I am at in this wonderful podcast at the moment. I will post more if I find more indications of my very shaky hypothesis, but I don't think I will find anything more and catch up with where you all are at. 🙂

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Willomere,

Addressing some of your points:

1. No, the mountains around the Dwarf Road pass are never named.

2. The 'Middle-earth planet' is our planet, just in an earlier age. So, the curvature (once the Earth is made round - which it has been by TLOTR) is the same.

3. I think the silence in Hollin is likely caused by the passing of a Nazgul mounted on a flying fell beast. Probably alerting spys (including the soon to be seen crebain) to be on the lookout, while heading for a reconnaissance around Rivendell. We know that the Nazgul can cast fear below them. The Company will shortly sense what could well be a flying Nazgul, perhaps returning to Mordor?

4. Aragorn's dislike of the route through Moria probably comes from his own venture inside of Moria some time ago (which we will learn about shortly). He probably got a clear sense of doom and danger when he was there.

5. The 'fell voices' are probably caused by Caradhras. The mountain is (or is inhabited by) a 'genus loci' or spirit of the place. A nature spirit (like Goldberry). These seem to be lesser Maiar who came early to Middle-earth, and could well pre-date Sauron.

The Balrog is not seemingly detectable from afar. Gandalf senses something powerful approaching the chamber of Mazarbul, but does not realize it is a Balrog until he sees it at the bridge.

Best wishes on your quest to catch up with the class!

Cheers

 

[Willomir]

Hi Willomere,
Best wishes on your quest to catch up with the class!
Cheers

Helllo again in this thread, @Flammifer !
Because you wrote my name wrong, I thought you were annoyed with me. So I took it upon myself to not only catch up, but also read ahead completing chapter 5 'The Bridge of Khazad-dûm'. Even then I was hesitating to post in this thread with my opinions again, however, seeing you making also typo's in @Odola's name as well in my 'Ring poem' thread gave me some courage to revive this discussion and show you my point of view on this matter, so here goes:

The Balrog is not seemingly detectable from afar. Gandalf senses something powerful approaching the chamber of Mazarbul, but does not realize it is a Balrog until he sees it at the bridge.

In the 50th Anniversary edition book (not the best book, I know, I know...) it was not Gandalf, who identifies the Balrog, it was Legolas! And it is not the first time Gandalf is (what I think) playing dumb.

But let's start from the beginning, which was at the Moria vote discussed in the 'Aragorn's Foretelling'episode 272 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast:

'Of course not!' said Gandalf. 'Who would? But the question is: who will follow me, if I lead you there?'
'I will,' said Gimli eagerly.
'I will,' said Aragorn heavily. 'You followed my lead almost to disaster in the snow, and have said no word of blame. I will follow your lead now - if this last warning will not move you. It is not of the Ring, not of us others that I am thinking now, but of you, Gandalf. And I say to you: if you pass the doors of Moria, beware!'
'I will not go' said Boromir; 'not unless the vote of the whole Company is against me. What do Legolas and the little folk say? The Ring-bearer's voice surely should be heard?'
'I do not wish to go to Moria,' said Legolas.
The hobbits said nothing. Sam looked at Frodo. At last Frodo spoke. 'I do not wish to go.' he said; 'but neither do I wish to refuse the advise of Gandalf. I beg that there should be no vote, until we have slept on it. Gandalf will get votes easier in the light of morning than in this cold gloom. How the wind howls!'

Gandalf realises here he has only 30% of the fellowship (I included Bill the Pony) behind him, and Aragorn's vote is only half of a vote, so it is actually 25% of the vote for him and 75% against...

After this meeting Gandalf suddenly starting to become forgetful. The first time of this happening is at the 'Omnious Emptiness' episode 282:

Gimli now walked ahead by the wizard's side, so eager was he to come to Moria. Together they led the Company back towards the mountains. The only road of old to Moria from the west had lain along the course of a stream, the Sirannon, that ran out from the feet of the cliffs near where the doors had stood. But either Gandalf was astray, or else the land had changed in recent years; for he did not strike the stream where he looked to find it, only a few miles southwards from their start.

Gimli finds the stream of course. However, did Gandalf intend it to be found? Or was Gandalf getting cold feet here?

Second time Gandalf is becoming "forgetful" is in the 'Quick to Anger' episode 294 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast:

'But do not you know the word, Gandalf?' asked Boromir in surprise.
'No!' said the wizard.
The others looked dismayed; only Aragorn, who knew Gandalf well, remained silent and unmoved.
'Then what was the use of bringing us to this accursed spot?' cried Boromir, glancing back with a shudder at the dark water. 'You told us that you had passed through the Mines. How could that be, if you did not know how to enter?'
'The answer to your first question, Boromir,' said the wizard, 'is that I do not know the word - yet. But we shall soon see. And,' he added. with a glint in his eyes under their bristling brows, 'you may ask what is the use of my deeds when they are proved useless. As for your other question: do you doubt my tale? Or have you no wits left? I did not enter this way. I came from the East.'

Gandalf does not know the word until the very last moment, when the Watcher in the water attacks the fellowship. This is very convenient, and a little too convenient for my taste.

Third time Gandalf becomes forgetful is in the 'A Point of Decision' episode 307 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast:

It was after nightfall when they had entered the Mines. They had been going for several hours with only brief halts, when Gandalf came to his first serious check. Before him stood a wide dark arch opening into three passages: all led in the same general direction, eastwards; but the left-hand passage plunged down, while the right-hand climbed up, and the middle way seemed to run on, smooth and level but very narrow.
'I have no memory of this place at all!' said Gandalf, standing uncertainly under the arch. He held up his staff in the hope of finding some marks or inscription that might help his choice; but nothing of the kind was to be seen. 'I am too weary to decide,' he said, shaking his head. 'And I expect that you are all as weary as I am, or wearier. We had better halt here for what is left of the night. You know what I mean! In here it is very dark; but outside the late Moon is riding westward and the middle-night has passed.'

Does Gandalf really have these losses of memory? Or is the wizard actually hesitating facing his inevitable demon, just like Jesus Christ was hesitating in the garden of Gethsemane to go forward by praying three times to God for another way before his eventual crucifixion?

 

[Flammifer]

Hi Willomir,

Sorry for the mis-spelling of your name!

I like your question: 'was Gandalf hesitating facing his inevitable demon?'

On the one hand, Gandalf has been thinking that they would have to go through Moria for a while, but he allows Aragorn to persuade him to try the Redhorn Gate. He also has heard Aragorn's warning (or premonition) that Moria might be dangerous for Gandalf. So, he could be cautious or hesitant.

On the other hand, he is pretty dismissive of Boromir's suggestions of alternate routes, and quite determined, despite doubts among the company (and Boromir's outright opposition) to assay the Moria route. So, he is not very hesitant.

I do not think that Gandalf has any suspicion that a Balrog exists in Moria. "Then something came into the chamber - I felt it through the door... It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command."

Gandalf knew that he had faced something very powerful. He also presumably knew that there was some chance that 'Durin's Bane' (whatever that was) was still in Moria. However, it does not seem that he knew it was a Balrog.

Once Legolas identifies the opponent as a Balrog, at the bridge, and Gimli shouts 'Durin's Bane', Gandalf says, "A Balrog. Now I understand. What an evil fortune! And I am already weary."

I think the evidence suggests that Gandalf thought Moria a potentially dangerous route, worth avoiding if possible. But, he also thought that it might well become necessary, and he was prepared to navigate it if so. I think the evidence also suggests that Gandalf had no notion that the danger might involve a Balrog, and this came as a surprise to him.

I don't think there is really evidence to suggest that Gandalf felt he was doomed to face his 'inevitable demon'. But I think there is evidence to suggest that Gandalf was aware that the route was dangerous (perhaps even to him) though prepared (reluctantly) to attempt it anyway if it proved necessary.

 

[Willomir]

I like your question: 'was Gandalf hesitating facing his inevitable demon?'

On the one hand, Gandalf has been thinking that they would have to go through Moria for a while, but he allows Aragorn to persuade him to try the Redhorn Gate. He also has heard Aragorn's warning (or premonition) that Moria might be dangerous for Gandalf. So, he could be cautious or hesitant.

On the other hand, he is pretty dismissive of Boromir's suggestions of alternate routes, and quite determined, despite doubts among the company (and Boromir's outright opposition) to assay the Moria route. So, he is not very hesitant.

Sorry for the late reply, I had the flu last week, and still recovering. I like that you like the 'Was Gandalf hesitating facing his inevitable demon?' question, @Flammifer . 🙂
The demon part is reminding me of this quote here below from Terry Pratchett, who had to face his own demon:

Before you can kill a demon, you have to be able to say it's name. Names have power. While the word Alzheimer's terrorizes us, it has power over us. When we are prepared to discuss it aloud, we might have power over it. It's thought of as a mental illness and it is a physical illness, affecting the brain. There should be no shame in having it, yet people still don't talk about it.

I think Tolkien's demon is Survivor's Guilt from the first World War, because two of his friends had died and he did not. But, since you liked the question, which demon were you thinking of? Or did you like the question for an other reason?

On the other hand, he is pretty dismissive of Boromir's suggestions of alternate routes, and quite determined, despite doubts among the company (and Boromir's outright opposition) to assay the Moria route. So, he is not very hesitant.

Boromir stepped on Gandalf's toes by doubting the wizard's tale a bit too loud, making the wizard look like a fool?
Pippin tried to save the discussion by asking:

'What are you going to do then?' asked Pippin, undaunted by the wizard's bristling brows.
'Knock on the doors with your head, Peregrin Took,' said Gandalf. 'But if that does not shatter them, and I am allowed a little peace from foolish questions, I will seek for the opening words.

If Gandalf is determined, then why is Gandalf this undiplomatic with Pippin & Boromir? Let us imagine a scenario where; there is no Watcher in the Water, Gandalf finds the opening word, and the gate is unlocked. Now the fellowship have again a choice to make at the threshold: go into Moria, or go elsewhere. If there were another vote to be made, would Gandalf have won the votes of Boromir & Pippin with this intimidating and deceptive behavior? (deceptive, because Boromir might have caught the wizard withholding vital information of not knowing the opening word from the fellowship at the initial vote)

And Gandalf taking his frustration out on Pippin happens again right after the third loss of memory from the wizard:

'What's that?' cried Gandalf. He was relieved when Pippin confessed what he had done; but he was angry, and Pippin could see his eye glinting. 'Fool of a Took!' he growled. 'This is a serious journey, not a hobbit walking-party. Throw yourself in next time, and then you will be no further nuisance. Now be quiet!'

Is Gandalf projecting his own reckless suicidal tendencies onto Pippin here? Could Gandalf be struggling with a death wish, just like Jesus Christ in Gethsemane before his crucifixion or perhaps even Tolkien's own potential Survivor's Guilt struggle?

I do not think that Gandalf has any suspicion that a Balrog exists in Moria. "Then something came into the chamber - I felt it through the door... It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell. What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command."

Gandalf knew that he had faced something very powerful. He also presumably knew that there was some chance that 'Durin's Bane' (whatever that was) was still in Moria. However, it does not seem that he knew it was a Balrog.

Once Legolas identifies the opponent as a Balrog, at the bridge, and Gimli shouts 'Durin's Bane', Gandalf says, "A Balrog. Now I understand. What an evil fortune! And I am already weary."

The entire situation: where Gandalf has a whole sorcery battle with this entity and the wizard still does not know, but Legolas takes just one glance at the creature and immediately identifying it a Balrog, really does not raise any flags for you? Gandalf withholding the Balrog information could be in protection of the fellowship shielding them from utter panic & despair. Because of my (not the best) 50th Anniversary edition book, I am not going to quote anything that professor Corey Olsen hasn't presented in the podcast yet, but before the iron ring door spell battle, Gandalf orders the entire fellowship to leave the chamber first. Why? Could he be trying to hide the horrible truth from the fellowship? And on the bridge he names himself 'wielder of the flame of Anor' and subsequently names the creature the 'Flame of Udûn' before killing this demon. Where does this origin information suddenly come from? How does Gandalf suddenly know the Balrog is from Udûn? This would be another red flag for me...

I think the evidence suggests that Gandalf thought Moria a potentially dangerous route, worth avoiding if possible. But, he also thought that it might well become necessary, and he was prepared to navigate it if so. I think the evidence also suggests that Gandalf had no notion that the danger might involve a Balrog, and this came as a surprise to him.

I don't think there is really evidence to suggest that Gandalf felt he was doomed to face his 'inevitable demon'. But I think there is evidence to suggest that Gandalf was aware that the route was dangerous (perhaps even to him) though prepared (reluctantly) to attempt it anyway if it proved necessary.

With all due respect, I am not convinced yet, sorry... I think Gandalf the Grey knows more than what you think he does and this wizard is definitely withholding information from the fellowship, probably with good intent, since every road to hell is paved with good intentions, but still deceptively so of this wizard. The saddest part of this whole ordeal is that if Boromir had been undaunted by Gandalf's anger, he might not only have saved Gandalf's life, but his own life as well! 😳