The other red star?

[Rachel Port]

If Bilbo had been the Ringbearer, who would have been his Sam? The logical person would have been Frodo, but that would have been impossible because of the Ring. Could Sam have gone with him? I don't know if that would have made sense. Wouldn't Frodo still have needed him? Who, then?

 

[Flammifer]

Thanks Rachel,

In that thread I made a case for Borgil not being Mars. But, I think Asterion made a better case, and Borgil (and the star in Rivendell) probably are Mars.

 

[Flammifer]

If Bilbo had been the Ringbearer, who would have been his Sam? The logical person would have been Frodo, but that would have been impossible because of the Ring. Could Sam have gone with him? I don't know if that would have made sense. Wouldn't Frodo still have needed him? Who, then?

Gandalf and Gimli, I would guess. Gimli might play a role somewhat analogous to that of Wiglaf in 'Beowulf'?

 

[Odola]

Sauron: "And who exactly are you?"

Bilbo: "Mushroom hunter; Ferry rider; I have been under a tree but not inside it; Buried alive and escaped the dead; He who jumped the moon, but came down too soon; wraithified and unwraithified; He who frequently emerges from underground; Known as 'hotfoot' among Trolls; I come from over the water and by water; I am prisoner and escapee; Spider's bane; but, who are you? And don't you seem to be missing something? A whole finger I believe!

😀

Or, maybe Bilbo would have learned something and remembered, "Never laugh at live dragons, Bilbo you fool!"

Do not think so. There areas where Bilbo is simply uncorrectable. He is a star, after all.

 

[JJ48]

Here's an interesting little thought experiment:

Why did JRRT make Frodo the protagonist of TLOTR instead of Bilbo?

It would seem unsurprising for JRRT to mirror his beloved 'Beowulf'. Beowulf is in two parts: Beowulf's fight against Grendel and Mother as a young man, and Beowulf's fight against the Dragon as an old man.

Why not Bilbo's quest to Erebor as a young Hobbit, and Bilbo's quest of the Ring as an old Hobbit?

Bilbo might be a better choice by Providence as Ring-bearer than Frodo? He is more experienced. He has more Estel. He is more willing. There is really no evidence that he would find it harder to resist the Ring than Frodo, or that he would be less likely to give it up and throw it into the fire?

Compare and contrast Bilbo and Frodo. Why did JRRT not just mirror 'Beowulf' and make Bilbo the protagonist of both quests? What is it about the differences between Bilbo and Frodo which JRRT thought were important? Why create a new protagonist for TLOTR?

I believe in History of Middle-earth, Tolkien considered Bilbo as the protagonist of the sequel initially, but eventually decided on having another hobbit be the focus since he had already told readers that, "[Bilbo] remained very happy to the end of his days, and those were extraordinarily long."

 

[Willomir]

You guys are getting close to the Balrog and having just completed episode 212 I do not think I will make it in time to ask my burning question in person, therefore my question for Narnion ahead of time is:
Back in Rivendell, did Frodo see the Flame of Udûn at a large distance, when he saw the red shining star low in the South?

In episode 198 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings', the 'Time Passes' slide quotes:

A wind began to blow chill from the Misty Mountains to the east. The Hunter's Moon waxed round in the night sky, and put to flight all the lesser stars. But low in the South one star shone red. Every night, as the Moon waned again, it shone brighter and brighter. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley.

Professor Corey Olson concluded in this session that what Frodo actually seems to have seen is the planet Mars, though in antiquity, planets were referred to as stars, alongside the stars, as regular observers called them “wandering stars”.

The problem with this conclusion is that planets (aka the wandering stars) follow the path of the Sun and Moon in the sky, since these celestial bodies are all in the ecliptic plane of our Solar system. Therefore Mars can only be low in the sky in the East or in the West, and in the South Mars will always be high in the sky just like the Sun and Moon, especially in autumn and winter nights.

Now in episode 198 there was some discussion, if Frodo was seeing the burning Eye of Sauron. Professor Corey Olson did not like that idea, and I agree with him on that. The Dark Tower Barad-dûr (where the eye resides) is in the southeast, and therefore it should be obscured by the Misty Mountains. This was further confirmed for me in the next episode, when professor Corey Olsen was showing the map of Middle Earth:

While listening to episode 198 I first wanted to suggest, that the red star light could somehow come from Saruman's sorcery on top of Isengard's tower Orthanc. When I looked at the map during episode 199, I found that Isengard is indeed located straight South from Rivendell. However, I also observed that Moria Gate is right in between these two locations. Hence why I am now wondering if Frodo actually gazed all the way from Rivendell upon the Flame of Udûn as one star low in the South shone red, perhaps in the act of trying to spy on Elrond's troops maybe...? I am very curious what your thoughts are on this possibility?

EDIT: I have just reached and finished episode 217 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast, where on the 'An Un-Merry Christmas' slide, when the fellowship is in the process of departure from Rivendell, Elrond is warning the party the following:

'You should fear the many eyes of the servants of Sauron' he said. 'I do not doubt that news of the discomfiture of the Riders has already reached him, and he will be filled with wrath. Soon now his spies on foot and wing will be abroad in the northern lands. Even of the sky above you must be aware as you go on your way.'

The overall conclusion of this 217th session was, that this is just mere foreshadowing of the crebain and Elrond had somehow foreseen this. At the beginning of the session there was mention made of the red star, which Frodo had seen from his window in Rivendell, but it was unfortunately only connected to Frodo's state of mind, not to Elrond's worry at all. Couldn't Elrond simply also have seen that star, which had shone red low in the South, burning like a watchful eye, just like Frodo had seen it, instead of magically foreseeing the future somehow? Also, is it therefore possible that perhaps a discomfited Black Rider or the Witch King himself had retreated from the Greyflood to Moria Gate and awakened the Flame of Udûn Balrog?

 

[Flammifer]

Good post Willomir.

I think that Asterion made a very good and convincing case in this forum (complete with star chart) for the Rivendell star being 'Borgil' and Mars. (Link below)

A

Thread 'Identification of Borgil as Mars'

Jan 11, 2021

Hi! As already discussed in Episode 13 around the 1:22:00 mark, "red Borgil" is normally associated to Aldebaran, with other candidates being Betlegeuse and Mars. I think Betlegeuse can be easily discarded, and Mars is normally discarded due to two reasons:

1. Although it can be seen around midnight in late September below the Pleiades (Remmirath) and above Orion (Menelmacar), this is rarely the case.

2. The name for Mars is elsewhere (Morgoth's Ring) given as Carnil/Karnil.

I have read an interesting article (https://funkmon.wordpress.com/2014/01/06/identifying-borgil/) where it...

• Asterion
• Replies: 40
• Forum: Let's talk about the course!

• 

Mars is low in the south in December, if you are far north (latitude of Oxford). Also, the red star is higher in the sky than you might think. "It glared above the trees on the brink of the valley". So, it might be low above the trees, but Frodo is looking up from the bottom of the valley towards the brink, and the trees must reach circa 100 feet above the brink, so, if looking towards a flat horizon, the red star would be higher above it than the "low in the south" it appeared to Frodo.

I think the red star Frodo is looking at is Mars.

From Rivendell to the peak of Zirakzigil is about 125 miles. The peak of Zirakzigil would have to be over 10,000 feet higher in elevation than Rivendell for a flame on it to be visible (if there was a clear line of sight from Rivendell to Zirakzigil - which there isn't, as the 'brink of the valley' must obscure the sight-lines from Rivendell to the south). (Due to the curvature of the Earth (assume same for Middle-earth? - It is our Earth, now round, after all) visibility of 10,000 feet is 123 miles). Rivendell, in the foothills of the Misty Mountains, must be at a considerable elevation. For the peak of Zirakzigil to be 10,000 feet higher, Zirakzigil would probably have to be a 15,000 or 16,000 ft. mountain, which I doubt it is?

Anyway, what would the 'Flame of Udun' (As Gandalf calls the Balrog) be doing on the peak of Zirakzigil? He knows how to get there, as that is where he flees, pursued by Gandalf. But, does he spend time there? Or rather deep near the roots of the mountains?

I think the red star is Mars. Read Asterion's post. He makes a very convincing case.

 

[Willomir]

Good post Willomir.

I think that Asterion made a very good and convincing case in this forum (complete with star chart) for the Rivendell star being 'Borgil' and Mars. (Link below)

A

Thread 'Identification of Borgil as Mars'

Jan 11, 2021

Hi! As already discussed in Episode 13 around the 1:22:00 mark, "red Borgil" is normally associated to Aldebaran, with other candidates being Betlegeuse and Mars. I think Betlegeuse can be easily discarded, and Mars is normally discarded due to two reasons:

1. Although it can be seen around midnight in late September below the Pleiades (Remmirath) and above Orion (Menelmacar), this is rarely the case.

2. The name for Mars is elsewhere (Morgoth's Ring) given as Carnil/Karnil.

I have read an interesting article (https://funkmon.wordpress.com/2014/01/06/identifying-borgil/) where it...

• Asterion
• Replies: 40
• Forum: Let's talk about the course!

• 

Mars is low in the south in December, if you are far north (latitude of Oxford). Also, the red star is higher in the sky than you might think. "It glared above the trees on the brink of the valley". So, it might be low above the trees, but Frodo is looking up from the bottom of the valley towards the brink, and the trees must reach circa 100 feet above the brink, so, if looking towards a flat horizon, the red star would be higher above it than the "low in the south" it appeared to Frodo.

I think the red star Frodo is looking at is Mars.

From Rivendell to the peak of Zirakzigil is about 125 miles. The peak of Zirakzigil would have to be over 10,000 feet higher in elevation than Rivendell for a flame on it to be visible (if there was a clear line of sight from Rivendell to Zirakzigil - which there isn't, as the 'brink of the valley' must obscure the sight-lines from Rivendell to the south). (Due to the curvature of the Earth (assume same for Middle-earth? - It is our Earth, now round, after all) visibility of 10,000 feet is 123 miles). Rivendell, in the foothills of the Misty Mountains, must be at a considerable elevation. For the peak of Zirakzigil to be 10,000 feet higher, Zirakzigil would probably have to be a 15,000 or 16,000 ft. mountain, which I doubt it is?

Anyway, what would the 'Flame of Udun' (As Gandalf calls the Balrog) be doing on the peak of Zirakzigil? He knows how to get there, as that is where he flees, pursued by Gandalf. But, does he spend time there? Or rather deep near the roots of the mountains?

I think the red star is Mars. Read Asterion's post. He makes a very convincing case.

Thank you for your reply, @Flammifer , and I did read that forum post before. In that referenced forum thread @Asterion made the case that Borgil = Mars, which I am not disputing at all: I am disputing whether Frodo's star is a planet or not, which is why I wrote my post in this forum thread instead of @Asterion's forum thread. I have had another look further into @Asterion's forum thread just now and I did indeed find a reply, where @Asterion mentions Frodo's observed glaring red star, where he has written:

In the chapter "The Ring Goes South" there is another reference to a red star:

"But low in the South one star shone red. Frodo could see it from his window, deep in the heavens, burning like a watchful eye that glared above the trees on the brink of the valley."

This scene takes place right after a full moon in early November (or late October), and in those weeks both Betelgeuse and Aldebaran can be seen from Oxford around midnight due South, and in 1943 Mars was there too, so I think there is a good chance this red star is Borgil too.

The funny thing is that, while reading that passage and musing about Borgil, I looked South out of my window and there they were, the three main alternatives for Borgil (Aldebaran, Betelgeuse and Mars) all neatly lined up and looking down on me! If you are in the Northern hemisphere and want to check them out too, today and during the next month or so they will be clearly visible and almost lined up right after sunset up high due South and setting due West as the night advances. It's not common to see Mars in such a position, so now it's a good opportunity to compare the three Borgil possibilities with the naked eye!

Hence in the 'Stellarium' free open source program (which you can download and use for yourselves too by the way) I have recreated what the Oxford's night sky looks like when Mars is south at Halloween's very early morrow hour of 4am in @Asterion's mentioned year 1943:


As you can see for yourselves Mars is (together with Saturn) really high up in the sky when it is in the south. It is as high up in the sky as an April/May high-noon Sun during an Oxford's spring day. I had to actually zoom out, "fish-eye" distorting the horizon, to even get both the horizon and the planet Mars in the same picture. So, if the red star as observed by Frodo from Rivendell is a planet (or even the star Aldebaran or Betelgeuse), the trees had to be really up-close to Frodo's window to be touching this burning watchful eye, which they weren't: the trees were on the brink of the valley! Therefore I do not believe the glaring watchful eye is either a planet or a star near the ecliptic plane: I still suspect it is actually the Flame of Udûn probably in the act of surveying the lands for Sauron's, Saruman's, or his own army. And I now also think Elrond and Gandalf have maybe suspected this as well, however, they did not share this scary information with the fellowship because they could not obtain solid confirmation of this possibility, so they did not want to needlessly worry & unnecessarily frighten the fellowship with their possible paranoia... 🙁

Have I made a strong enough case here now to perhaps have changed your mind too?

 

[Odola]

Thank you for your reply, @Flammifer , and I did read that forum post before. In that referenced forum thread @Asterion made the case that Borgil = Mars, which I am not disputing at all: I am disputing whether Frodo's star is a planet or not, which is why I wrote my post in this forum thread instead of @Asterion's forum thread. I have had another look further into @Asterion's forum thread just now and I did indeed find a reply, where @Asterion mentions Frodo's observed glaring red star, where he has written:


Hence in the 'Stellarium' free open source program (which you can download and use for yourselves too by the way) I have recreated what the Oxford's night sky looks like when Mars is south at Halloween's very early morrow hour of 4am in @Asterion's mentioned year 1943:
View attachment 5419

As you can see for yourselves Mars is (together with Saturn) really high up in the sky when it is in the south. It is as high up in the sky as an April/May high-noon Sun during an Oxford's spring day. I had to actually zoom out, "fish-eye" distorting the horizon, to even get both the horizon and the planet Mars in the same picture. So, if the red star as observed by Frodo from Rivendell is a planet (or even the star Aldebaran or Betelgeuse), the trees had to be really up-close to Frodo's window to be touching this burning watchful eye, which they weren't: the trees were on the brink of the valley! Therefore I do not believe the glaring watchful eye is either a planet or a star near the ecliptic plane: I still suspect it is actually the Flame of Udûn probably in the act of surveying the lands for Sauron's, Saruman's, or his own army. And I now also think Elrond and Gandalf have maybe suspected this as well, however, they did not share this scary information with the fellowship because they could not obtain solid confirmation of this possibility, so they did not want to needlessly worry & unnecessarily frighten the fellowship with their possible paranoia... 🙁

Have I made a strong enough case here now to perhaps have changed your mind too?

Remember that Rivendell is in a ravine, you have to account for the cliff and the tree line high up on the edge on the cliff.

 

[Willomir]

Remember that Rivendell is in a ravine, you have to account for the cliff and the tree line high up on the edge on the cliff.
View attachment 5420

First of all, I really appreciate the effort of the making of your beautiful sketch of Rivendell and Frodo's potential line of sight. It's genuinely a very nice piece of art, @Odola . 🙂

However, I still have to defend my own point of view, and from your drawing I concluded that you seem to perhaps underestimate the planet's altitude when it is in the south. For starters though, professor Tolkien's text does not mention a "tree line high up on the edge on the cliff" that is visible south from Frodo's window, the text actually says the trees are on the brink of the valley. Nonetheless, let us entertain with the thought that the trees were on some elevation anyway. I am going to be somewhat technical here, since I went back into the 'Stellarium' open source program (which should be downloadable for free from your app store, if you want to give it a go for yourself) and I turned on the Azimuth/Altitude grid to gather some solid data and made the following screenshot for evidence sake:

In this screenshot you can see Mars is at an altitude of approximately 62 degrees in Oxford, England, when this planet was located in the south at 4am on Halloween 1943.

The human upper vertical field of view is about 60 degrees, however, the outer periphery of the human vision can only see in black & white. Colour can only be observed in the central vision, which has a vertical limit of about 30 degrees up (see diagram below linked from Wikipedia):

So in order to observe this southern wandering star/planet and determine its red colour, the observer's head must be tilted at least 32 degrees backwards.

When someone has to tilt their head that far back to observe the red planet, would one still describe this as "low in the South one star shone red"? What is the definition of 'low' here really?
If you divide the vertical view in two sections, 'low' could be defined as the view from 0 to 45 degrees, and 'high' would be from 45 degrees to 90 degrees, where Mars would be residing. Even when the vertical view were to be divided into three sections, where 'low' = 0-30 degrees, 'mid' = 30-60 degrees, and 'high' = 60-90 degrees, the planet Mars would still be high up in the sky.
And if the horizon has been elevated by cliffs and the lower vertical field of view on the night sky has been reduced to let's say a 50 degrees altitude, would one really give a 50-70 degrees altitude range still as a "low" definition then? It is really steep, steeper than what has been drawn in the wonderful illustration.
Therefore I do not think the red star low in the south is a planet, Mars is really high up in the night sky and is shinning its red hue down on a very steep angle in the south. I hope you have been convinced with this evidence and maybe have given the Flame of Udûn some serious consideration here as the burning watchful eye here perhaps...?
I am of course looking forward to hearing any counterarguments and what exactly might still be bothersome with these factoids. 🙂

 

[Odola]

For starters though, professor Tolkien's text does not mention a "tree line high up on the edge on the cliff" that is visible south from Frodo's window, the text actually says the trees are on the brink of the valley.

well, we see from Tolkien's own drawings of Rivendel that "brink of the valley" = "edge on the cliff" https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GRbeJzzXgAAeUHI?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://museoteca.com/r/en/work/7376/j_r_r_tolkien/the_fair_valley_of_rivendell_/!/

 

[Willomir]

well, we see from Tolkien's own drawings of Rivendel that "brink of the valley" = "edge on the cliff" https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GRbeJzzXgAAeUHI?format=jpg&name=900x900 https://museoteca.com/r/en/work/7376/j_r_r_tolkien/the_fair_valley_of_rivendell_/!/

Hmm, these are interesting drawings, @Odola hummm... 😕 They are indeed steep, but would one define the planet as "low in the South" when that "one star shone red" above the trees on the edge on the cliff?
And in which building would Frodo's window be? And there are mountains in the background as well. Could one of them be Zirakzigil as @Flammifer has mentioned in his previous own response?

Let me put the PBS Twitter image in this post, so people do not have to open another browser tab:

And the Museoteca image:

The tallest mountain is Caradhras , isn't it?

 

[Odola]

The caption of the first drawing says that is the view East - as such South would be to the right. We see the wall of the Misty Mountains straight East.

 

[Willomir]

The caption of the first drawing says that is the view East - as such South would be to the right. We see the wall of the Misty Mountains straight East.

@Odola & @Flammifer , I concede, the two Tolkien's drawings of Rivendell have won me over to team Borgil. In my defense the sentence "But low in the South one star shone red." is still confusing as heck to me. If 'star' is replaced with 'Sun' and we pretend it is about an April/May spring day, then that sentence would make no sense at all to me:

"But low in the south the Sun shone yellow."

Having seen how the Bruinen river has carved tall walls of rock on either side of the valley over time in the drawings of Tolkien, I have to admit the red star that Frodo spotted through the window is probably indeed the red planet. I was so sure it was the Flame of Udûn for a while, because in Moria Gandalf comes to the conclusion so quickly that what Pippin has awakened is a Balrog without seeing the creature itself, I thought that Gandalf must have been suspecting it for a loooong while. Also in episode 225 of the 'Exploring the Lord of the Rings' podcast professor Corey Olsen was inconclusively wondering what Gandalf and Elrond were doing in the house while everyone else was waiting outside for them. I was convinced back then that those two wise men were still discussing if they should tell the fellowship about the Flame of Udûn or not, after both having observed that red star low in the South (with uppercase S by the way) just like Frodo had observed it from his window and both gone deep into the lore in the libraries of Rivendell.
By the way I was even prepared to link the Red Balrog to the Red Baron as another World War I reference:

But having been convinced otherwise now, I now think that that would probably have been a step too far perhaps... 🙄
Currently I have just finished episode 237 and the Crebain are about to visit the fellowship, which could also be linked to a squadron of World War I fighter aces, but maybe that's too far fetched too.
However, I will still look for more evidence for Gandalf's prior knowledge of the Balrog as I continue through the episodes of this podcast! 😀