Understanding Sam and Frodo’s inexplicable dialogue at Old Man Willow

Flammifer

Well-Known Member
There is some very strange dialogue right after Old Man Willow attempts to drown Frodo. Both Professor and Class were somewhat baffled by this dialogue back when this event was covered.

Sam has already been suspicious of the Tree. He hears a splash, runs back to the bank and finds Frodo being held underwater by a root. Sam pulls him out.

“Do you know, Sam,” says Frodo, “the beastly tree threw me in! I felt it. The big root just twisted round and tipped me in!”

Then the strange dialogue starts:

“You were dreaming I expect, Mr. Frodo,” said Sam. “You shouldn’t sit in such a place if you feel sleepy.”

What is up with Sam? Why this response? It seems a very bizarre comment, from Sam, who is already suspicious of the Tree, and has just pulled Frodo out from under a root that was holding him down.

A few second’s later, Frodo and Sam find that Merry and Pippin have been swallowed into cracks in the trunk of the Willow. Trying and failing to pull them out, Frodo cries wildly, “What a foul thing to happen! Why did we ever come into this dreadful Forest? I wish we were all back at Crickhollow!”

Also, an odd dialogue in the circumstances. Sam and Frodo seem like idiots.

This all becomes much more feasible, however, if we just assume that in the course of transcription or translation, a phrase was inadvertently dropped from the text. Here is the possible missing text, in italics:

“You were dreaming I expect, Mr. Frodo,” said Sam in an exaggerated tone, while furtively, but urgently, holding up a finger before his lips. “You shouldn’t sit in such a place, if you feel sleepy.”

Now, all is clear. Sam is signaling that we should not let on to the murderous Tree that we know it is a killer, while we are standing right under it.

Frodo gets it, rides with the plan, and does not accuse the Tree or scream at the Tree when he cannot get Merry and Pippin out. However, no point in this any longer. The Tree is an enemy and it is time for open war against it. Which Frodo realizes as he kicks the tree and then starts talking about axes and fire.

So, if we just assume a descriptive phrase, illuminating Sam’s response to Frodo’s accusation of the Willow, that was dropped in transcription, the whole dialogue stops being idiotic, and becomes totally understandable. Also, totally in character for the street-wise, common sensible, Sam.

Of course, if one was reading the text aloud, it might be possible to convey the reason for this odd dialogue through intonation alone.
 
I always assumed that Sam was chiding Frodo for sitting somewhere from which , if he nodded off in the warm sun, he was likely to fall—whether onto the ground or into the water—and that he didn't believe that the tree had moved until they went around and discovered their friends missing.
 
Hi NotACat,

Your suggestion is the most obvious first way to read it. But it is also the way that makes Sam sound like an idiot.

Sam is already suspicious of Old Man Willow. He has said, "There's more behind this than sun and warm air. I don''t like this great big tree. I don't trust it. Hark at it singing about sleep now! This won't do at all!"

Then he hears a splash, rushes over, finds Frodo held underwater by a tree root, but not struggling.

Frodo tells him that the tree attacked and threw Frodo into the water.

So, if Sam does not believe Frodo, or if Sam really thinks that Frodo is wrong about the Tree attacking him, and that Frodo was just dreaming and fell into the water, Sam does seem like an idiot.

That is why the obvious way to read this dialogue is so problematical. We know that Sam is not an idiot. He is, in fact, quick witted, street smart, and almost always suspicious (indeed, more apt to be overly suspicious than overly trusting - though, of course, he is always apt to be trusting of Frodo, rather than suspicious). The thought that Sam would disbelieve Frodo, especially when he has just said (out loud even, though to himself), "I don't trust it (the Tree)", would be totally weird according to everything we know about Sam.

The obvious reading of the dialogue makes no sense at all, and is certainly not in character for Sam (likewise Frodo's line of dialogue shortly after).

However, the dialogue does make sense, and conform to Sam's character, if it is said in the right intonation so that Frodo can understand; "Shut up Mr. Frodo! No point in letting the deadly tree know that we suspect it. Let's just act dumb and innocent and maybe we can slowly back away! It was a dream - get it. We suspect nothing. We know nothing. Let's get out of here!"

I think that is exactly how Sam would likely react to Frodo blurting out accusations of attempted murder against the tree while the two hobbits are standing right underneath it.

If Sam said his line with the right intonation, and with the right gestures, Frodo would understand what he was meaning immediately.

If there had been a modifying clause, describing Sam's tone and gestures, then we the reader would also understand immediately. That's why it is neat to speculate that there was once exactly such a modifying clause, but that sometime during the various transcriptions or translations of the Red Book of Westmarch, some scribe or typesetter carelessly omitted it. These things regularly happen to manuscripts that have gone through multiple transcriptions.
 
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Sam is signaling that we should not let on to the murderous Tree that we know it is a killer, while we are standing right under it.
One of the things I especially love about this Exploration and the forums is these times when one little insight can totally change the interpretation of a sentence in the text. Just like when Frodo says "if this goes on much longer, I shall turn into a wraith!", where the emphasis on "shall" implies so much about how they have been thinking and talking that didn't make it explicitly into the book.

Not 100% sure I buy this one about Sam, but I thank you tremendously for posting it; this is a beautiful alternate explanation of the dialogue.
 
Or possibly their wits were still bing dulled by OMW's singing. They were possibly not thinking as clearly here as they normally would be.
That has always been my personal interpretation, but I also, now it's been brought up, like the "playing dumb in the presence of Old Man Willow" idea. It's just a cool interpretation. But the "actually being stupid" is still my default here.
 
I could buy Frodo's response as being still dulled by Old Man Willow. But, this does not seem so likely for Sam. Sam was never totally under the Tree's influence, and he has shaken it off quite some time before he tells Frodo that he must have been dreaming. I think it more likely that he voiced that line in an exaggerated tone, that made it clear to Frodo that he should be more cautious.
 
I don't see that Sam's response is so stupid. He distrusts the tree, certainly, but there's a big difference between the tree singing of sleep and the tree actually moving its roots to murder someone. Sam may have thought it was simply the tree putting Frodo to sleep that caused him to fall in, which is why he chided Frodo on his choice of resting spot.
 
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I've always viewed the pleasant surroundings of OMW as a lure to put travelers at ease to more easily open them up to his singing. Were OMW in the midst of the sort of lands surrounding most evil beings, he wouldn't attract new prey. It's much like lesser carnivorous plants which use nectar to attract insects into the trap. Perhaps, like other carnivorous plants, doesn't get enough nutrients from the environment in which he grows and need to supplement his usual plantish fare with the odd hobbit or other unfortunate creature?

The Bonfire Glade is "a dreary place," for all that it seemed charming by comparison to the forest itself. The green hill-top appears just as Frodo was considering turning around, and although it offers them no view of the direction to which they want to go, but seeing anything beyond the wood does encourage them to go on, even if the available path goes in the wrong direction. Finally, they come out of the gloom into sunshine and green. Sunshine, green, and flies; just as they began to feel hot, they find themselves where it's "cool under the willows," In addition to which there are: "Less flies." The trap is set.

Singing of sleep is arouses distrust in Sam, but it doesn't arouse fear. He attributes Frodo's fall into the water as carelessness on the part of the sleepy hobbit, even when Frodo accuses OMW, it's only when they discover Pippin has vanished into the tree that they clearly both understand their peril.

OMW completely controls his the environment surrounding him. Not only is his lair pleasant and verdant, he even dominates the atmosphere about him, diminishing and quashing the voices those who might seek to escape. It's a well conceived trap luring his prey in with no sense of danger until they have no hope of escape ... unless some unexpected savior hops in to save them against all hope!
 
Hi, JJ48,

Consider, that Sam already distrusts the Tree, and that he always tends to trust Mr. Frodo.

Now, Frodo has just told Sam, "Do you know, Sam... The beastly tree threw me in! I felt it. The big root just twisted round and tipped me in!"

For Sam to mistrust Frodo is completely outside of Sam's character. For Sam to dismiss what Frodo has just said, and say, "You were dreaming I expect, Mr. Frodo... You shouldn't sit in such a place, if you feel sleepy", is even more totally alien to Sam's character.

Unless, of course, Sam says it in an intonation and with gestures which make it plain to Frodo that he is taking what Frodo just said very seriously indeed.

If we take at face value that Sam dismisses Frodo's accusations of the Tree, and just thinks Frodo was dreaming, then we must either assume that Sam has changed his character drastically, or that he is being idiotic for some reason.

Much more likely that his dialogue is meant to be heard as acknowledging Frodo's accusation, but cautioning not to let the Tree think they are on to it.

It would be heard that way by Frodo, if Sam said it in the right tone of voice, perhaps with accompanying gestures.

This also explains Frodo's strange dialogue when they find Merry and Pippin being swallowed by the Tree. Frodo is still a bit out of it, and going with the signal he has just picked up from Sam - don't let the Tree know that we know - however, he soon realizes that it is too late for that plan, and they should move towards war against the Tree.
 
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