Why two months delay between the Council and departing Rivendell?

[Flammifer]

There is a lot of discussion at the beginning of ‘The Ring goes South’, indicating that the main reason for the delay was to wait for reports from scouts, sent out to determine what happened to the Black Riders. Is there any real logic to this reason for delay? Gandalf says, “We can’t start until we have found out about the Riders.” “Elrond is sending Elves, and they will get in touch with the Rangers, and maybe with Thranduil’s folk in Mirkwood. And Aragorn has gone with Elrond’s sons.” (Why might they be scouting all the way to Thranduil’s folk?)

I can see a delay of a week or two to try to find out if the Riders were still lurking close enough to Rivendell to shadow the Ring-bearer when he left, but two months? What advantage is there in giving the Riders plenty of time to make it all the way back to Mordor to report to Sauron (and probably enough time after that report to set up spies near Rivendell)? I know that Gandalf says, “I think we may now hope that the Ring-wraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless. If that is so, it will be some time before they can begin the hunt again. Of course the Enemy has other servants, but they will have to journey all the way to the borders of Rivendell before they can pick up our trail.”

Gandalf seems to be assuming that the Ring-wraiths have no way of sending more rapid messages back to Mordor. What about the possibility that they travel to Isengard (which should take less than a month) and communicate with Sauron through the Palantir? They could be back on the borders of Rivendell themselves before the company sets off? (Not that Gandalf and Elrond knew of the Palantir connection between Orthanc and Barad-Dur, though they might have suspected, but the Nazgul presumably did.) Or they could send messages by crebain, or other means? Of course, as it turns out, Gandalf’s suppositions seem to be right, and Sauron’s ‘other servants’ don’t seem to pick up the trail of the Company until they reach Hollin. It seems a risky assumption, and safer to leave Rivendell after say two weeks, rather than two months? An earlier departure might have found better weather in Redhorn Pass or avoided Wargs in Hollin?

What on Middle-earth is the purpose of scouting for two months?

Or, is the ‘scouting’ partially an excuse, and Gandalf and Elrond have other reasons for delay which they would rather not reveal?

After all, the extensive ‘scouting’ proved futile. All that was learned of the Black Riders was learned in the first few days, when the bodies of three of the Black horses were found at the ford, and five more and one black cloak on the rapids below the ford.

Could it be that the delay was mainly caused by uncertainty on the part of Gandalf and Elrond as to the real extent of Frodo’s healing from the Morgul knife? That might have been a reason for delay which they were unwilling to reveal? That, I think, is the most probable reason.

Or, did they need to wait until the sons of Elrond got not just to Lothlorien, but back, for some reason? But, I cannot think of a good reason?

Of course, another possibility is that it was JRRT who initiated the delay, due to thinking it very important that the Company should leave Rivendell on Christmas Day? (Though it is not revealed that it was Christmas Day until Appendix B.)

The Hobbits seem fine with the delay, but I imagine Boromir was tremendously frustrated? I doubt he was a relaxing house guest in Rivendell during those two months?

What do you think might have been some of the conversations between Boromir and Elrond, or Boromir and Aragorn (Aragorn was out scouting with the sons of Elrond. Did Boromir go with them or was he irritable and frustrated in Rivendell)?

(By the way, “The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return; they had made a great journey, passing down the Silverlode in a strange country, but of their errand they would not speak to any save to Elrond.” No mention of Aragorn? What happened to him? Did he return earlier? (“Others had gone west, and with the help of Aragorn and the Rangers had searched the lands far down the Greyflood.” So, did Aragorn go with the sons of Elrond, as Gandalf said, or, did he go west?) One assumes the great journey of Elrond’s sons was to Lothlorien? Why? What was so secret?)

Why do you think the Ring lingered in Rivendell for two months?

Something to ponder as we go through the chapter, ‘The Ring goes South’?

 

[JJ48]

Well, they also had to reforge Aragorn's sword, prepare supplies, establish a plan for the Fellowship, and figure out who will be in it and who will be assigned to other tasks.

Beyond that, though, I'm not sure that two months sounds all that unreasonable for scouting. Yes, eight horses are accounted for fairly quickly, but the one that isn't could still cause trouble. The scouts head all the way up into the Ettenmoors and down to Tharbad. Just a journey of that distance may not take months, but keep in mind that they're searching; not merely traveling. Furthermore, their searches would have to be all along the way, not just at their destinations, which makes that a HUGE area to cover.

As for Boromir, I'm sure he was anxious to get started, but as a military captain, I'm also sure that he understood the need for proper preparation and scouting.

 

[Flammifer]

It should not take more than a few weeks to re-forge a sword and complete all those other tasks.

What are they scouting for? Why are they scouting up into the Ettenmoors and all the way down to Tharbad? Over to Mirkwood, and down to Lothlorien?

Presumably, the main threat is Nazgul or other spies close enough to Rivendell to detect the exit of the Ring? A thorough scout of the area near to Rivendell to check for observers, and a scout along the planned exit route of the company should cover the immediate threats.

If this were combined with a number of decoy parties heading out from Rivendell in various plausible directions at the same time as the real company departed, it should be better concealment than the process actually adopted.

Of course, all those scouting groups could very well function as decoys, drawing off any observers or spies, but why wait until the more far-ranging of them returned before the Company setting off? Any spies who trailed the scouts out, might well just trail them back again in time to observe the actual departure?

Why wait until the sons of Elrond have returned from Lothlorien? What of importance could they have been bringing back?

There would seem to be many advantages to an earlier departure from Rivendell. It is hard to see how the benefits of two month's of scouting would offset those advantages?

I have always been baffled by the delay in Rivendell. When I first noticed in the Appendices, that the departure date was Christmas Day, I wondered if that did not explain why JRRT had them linger so long?

However, that is not an in-frame explanation. So, I still wonder what could explain it in-frame?

 

[SwallowedUpInVictory]

Maybe they wanted to wait for snow so it covers their trails.

25 of December was winter solstice before gregorian calendar. The longest night of the year. Maybe it has to do something with it as the company was to travel at night. But Elrond must have known though that real midwinter is at 21st. Hmm

 

[SwallowedUpInVictory]

Could it be that the scouts were actually sent out to find Gollum again? Maybe Gandalf wanted him to be part of the company in order to lead them into Mordor and because he had the feeling that Gollum still had his role to play. He and Elrond kept it secret for now otherwise Frodo and Bilbo would have gone mad right away and might have boycotted the whole venture. Aragorn already had some experience on hunting for Gollum and Elronds sons looked for him near Mirkwood where he escaped. After two months of search they gave up

 

[Flammifer]

Good speculation SwallowedUpinVictory,

I like the idea of looking for Gollum to act as Mordor guide. Not sure if that would occur to Gandalf or Elrond, but it might.

It is pretty strongly hinted that Elrond's sons went to Lothlorien, not Mirkwood.

It is (contradictorily) stated that Aragorn helped the search down to Tharbad (but also that he went with the sons of Elrond), which would be a bit of a wild goose chase if looking for Gollum.

Two month's delay seems a big risk to me. Would a 'needle in a haystack' search for Gollum, with a very uncertain outcome, be worth that delay?

 

[Anthony Lawther]

I can imagine the delay being the result of many factors:

Determining the make-up of the Company; there would be many candidates to assess and even the size of the Company would be a matter of some debate. This might not have been finalized until many of the scouts returned.

Aragorn probably wishes to be present for the reforging of Narsil, but also wishes to be involved in the scouting along the path they are most likely to begin on. So the reforging is delayed until his return from Tharbad. The delay might be as long as a month, allowing three weeks for scouting down the river and a week returning.

The sons of Elrond probably go to consult with their grandparents to ensure that Lothlórien is alert for the coming of the Company, and the way over the Mountains is not being watched, as it would be a good point of ambush, especially with the Orcs of Moria close at hand.

Frodo is given more time to recover from his wound while being monitored; no point in leaving while he is still weakened.

Bill the Pony gets the opportunity to gain full strength for the journey ahead.


Preparations can occur in parallel to all of this, but can’t be finalized until the size, constituency, and intended path of the Company is known. The supplies they took with them were almost certainly only enough to get to Lothlórien plus some contingency, with the intention to resupply before moving on.

Leaving when the nights are longer gives some advantage when traveling by night, although you might not wait for the longest night to begin when making a long journey as that advantage starts to diminish immediately, while leaving earlier in the season allows the advantage to grow before it diminishes.

In short, there’s some support for a longer delay than a week or two, but it’s reasonable to question a two month delay.

Ultimately, Gandalf and Elrond at least must be satisfied that the delay was necessary as neither express any concern over the delay.

 

[JJ48]

It is (contradictorily) stated that Aragorn helped the search down to Tharbad (but also that he went with the sons of Elrond), which would be a bit of a wild goose chase if looking for Gollum.

I see no contradiction. Aragorn is said to have gone with the Sons, but then Gandalf elaborates on scouring the land for news. Later, the Sons come back last of all having been to Lothlorien. It seems reasonable to conclude that they and Aragorn went together to search south, and then when Aragorn turned back to Rivendell, they turned to the Redhorn Pass to run their errand before returning.

 

[Flammifer]

I see no contradiction. Aragorn is said to have gone with the Sons, but then Gandalf elaborates on scouring the land for news. Later, the Sons come back last of all having been to Lothlorien. It seems reasonable to conclude that they and Aragorn went together to search south, and then when Aragorn turned back to Rivendell, they turned to the Redhorn Pass to run their errand before returning.

Hi JJ48,

The contradiction seems to lie in that Aragorn is said to have gone with the sons in one place, but, in another it is said, "others had gone west, and with the help of Aragorn and the Rangers had searched the lands far down the Greyflood, as far as Tharbad..."

So, it is a contradiction that Aragorn could have both gone with the sons of Elrond, and also searched far down the Greyflood. The sons of Elrond have pretty obviously gone to Lothlorien. ('Passing down the Silverlode to a far country.) That is in a very different direction to 'far down the Greyflood'.

 

[JJ48]

Hi JJ48,

The contradiction seems to lie in that Aragorn is said to have gone with the sons in one place, but, in another it is said, "others had gone west, and with the help of Aragorn and the Rangers had searched the lands far down the Greyflood, as far as Tharbad..."

So, it is a contradiction that Aragorn could have both gone with the sons of Elrond, and also searched far down the Greyflood. The sons of Elrond have pretty obviously gone to Lothlorien. ('Passing down the Silverlode to a far country.) That is in a very different direction to 'far down the Greyflood'.

And you're saying that traveling to Lothlorien and back took them the entirety of the two months?

 

[Flammifer]

I can imagine the delay being the result of many factors:

Determining the make-up of the Company; there would be many candidates to assess and even the size of the Company would be a matter of some debate. This might not have been finalized until many of the scouts returned.

Aragorn probably wishes to be present for the reforging of Narsil, but also wishes to be involved in the scouting along the path they are most likely to begin on. So the reforging is delayed until his return from Tharbad. The delay might be as long as a month, allowing three weeks for scouting down the river and a week returning.

The sons of Elrond probably go to consult with their grandparents to ensure that Lothlórien is alert for the coming of the Company, and the way over the Mountains is not being watched, as it would be a good point of ambush, especially with the Orcs of Moria close at hand.

Frodo is given more time to recover from his wound while being monitored; no point in leaving while he is still weakened.

Bill the Pony gets the opportunity to gain full strength for the journey ahead.


Preparations can occur in parallel to all of this, but can’t be finalized until the size, constituency, and intended path of the Company is known. The supplies they took with them were almost certainly only enough to get to Lothlórien plus some contingency, with the intention to resupply before moving on.

Leaving when the nights are longer gives some advantage when traveling by night, although you might not wait for the longest night to begin when making a long journey as that advantage starts to diminish immediately, while leaving earlier in the season allows the advantage to grow before it diminishes.

In short, there’s some support for a longer delay than a week or two, but it’s reasonable to question a two month delay.

Ultimately, Gandalf and Elrond at least must be satisfied that the delay was necessary as neither express any concern over the delay.

Hi Anthony,

I like all your possible reasons for delay. However, I do not think that any of them are sufficient to justify the risks of delay except possibly for observing Frodo to ensure that his wound from the Morgul knife is not more serious than it seems.

I agree that alerting Lothlorien is important. But, no real need for the sons of Elrond to report back that they have done so before the Company sets out.

The risks of delay are both from the Enemy, and from the season. Two months is about enough time for the Ring-wraths to return to Mordor, and for new spies to be sent to the borders of Rivendell. Spies that followed the scouts out of Rivendell, might have followed them back to Rivendell and been there to observe the departure of the Ring. The later into winter, the greater the chance that the Redhorn Pass would be rendered impassable by snow and ice.

The risks of delay seem fairly great compared to the mostly trivial reasons for delay?

 

[Flammifer]

And you're saying that to Lothlorien and back took them the entirety of the two months?

Hi JJ48,

It seems that travelling to Lothlorien and back took most of the two months. "The hobbits had been nearly two months in the House of Elrond.... when the scouts began to return..... The sons of Elrond, Elladan and Elrohir, were the last to return."

So, it took them most of two months. Probably a week less than two months, as Elrond, after that passage, appoints the Nine, and then says, "In seven days the Company must depart."

That fits with the time it should take to go to Lothlorien and return. Those returning to Rivendell after the downfall of Sauron take about 23 days travel time from Isengard to Rivendell. Assuming travel time from Rivendell to Lothlorien to be about the same as Isengard to Rivendell, (Lothlorien is considerably closer to Rivendell than Isengard is, but, travellers have to cross the mountains, which should take somewhat longer) the round trip to Lothlorien could have been done in about 46 days. (The Company also takes 23 days from Rivendell to Lothlorien.) Add in a few days for scouting, and a few days in Lothlorien, and a round trip from Rivendell to Lothlorien of 53 days seems about right.

So, yes, it seems to fit that the round-trip journey of Eladan and Elrohir from Rivendell to Lothlorien and back took not the entirety of two months, but most of two months.

 

[JJ48]

I still don't think that constitutes a contradiction without knowing the actual paths of Aragorn and the Sons. When the Fellowship heads out, they're going to go back to the Ford before heading south, and they're specifically going to be going on secret, hidden paths. It could well be that Aragorn and the Sons set out together on a more major road along the Bruinen, and at a fork further down it the Sons went east toward Caradhras while Aragorn and others continued along toward Tharbad. Or perhaps they all went south together, and it was Aragorn who broke off to the west to meet up with some of the scouts searching that way. Without further details of the journeys taken, it's impossible to say for certain.

 

[Odola]

How about metaphysical reasons? (Beyond letting Frodo's reconvalensce complete after a near-death experience and - propably- a serious surgery?). After the Sun gains some ground over the night might be a better time to start such a journey.

 

[SwallowedUpInVictory]

Maybe they waited for the annual letter of Father Christmas. Maybe Polar Bear was also scouting for goblins...

 

[Flammifer]

I still don't think that constitutes a contradiction without knowing the actual paths of Aragorn and the Sons. When the Fellowship heads out, they're going to go back to the Ford before heading south, and they're specifically going to be going on secret, hidden paths. It could well be that Aragorn and the Sons set out together on a more major road along the Bruinen, and at a fork further down it the Sons went east toward Caradhras while Aragorn and others continued along toward Tharbad. Or perhaps they all went south together, and it was Aragorn who broke off to the west to meet up with some of the scouts searching that way. Without further details of the journeys taken, it's impossible to say for certain.

That would work, JJ48.

Of course, we have no idea whether the Sons went south and over the Redhorn Pass. They could just as well have gone over the Dwarf Road Pass and thence down the vale of the Anduin to Lothlorien. (The phrase 'down the Silverlode' would seem to work better with the Redhorn Pass route, but it could work with either route.)

 

[Rachel Port]

How much of the final map actually existed when the scouting trips set out? The sons of Elrond went down the Silverlode to a far country collecting highly classified information that we don't have clearance for - but was it Lorien in Tolkien's mind when these scouting trips were imagined (or even retconned)? I imagine these scouting trips were looking for more than just news about the Nazgul. The company will need as much information about conditions along the way so they can plan their route, or at least the start of their route

If Elrond and Gandalf are afraid of what being near the Ring will do to Bilbo, I can't imagine they would consider Gollum being part of the Company a viable option - or even conceive the idea except in nightmares, though Gandalf later says his heart foretold that Frodo and Gollum would meet before the quest was over.

Frodo's recovery is surely one reason for the delay, and allowing him and Bilbo more time together before he departs on what is likely to be a fatal journey. And as the scouts come back there will be briefings that Frodo will be included in. He spends time studying as well, looking over old maps and other materials that Pippin later wishes he had spent some time doing as well.

And I think Aragorn and Boromir spend some of this time getting to know each other, including physical exercise and perhaps sparring together. When Aragorn tells Frodo that he and Boromir will be joining the Company much of the way, he says that Boromir is a valiant man - and later Frodo tells Faramir that Boromir was satisfied about Aragorn's claims and honoured him. This would have been important for many possible futures.

And weren't a lot of dates changed when Tolkien decided the destruction of the Ring should take place in March, while earlier versions had it in February?

 

[JJ48]

How much of the final map actually existed when the scouting trips set out? The sons of Elrond went down the Silverlode to a far country collecting highly classified information that we don't have clearance for - but was it Lorien in Tolkien's mind when these scouting trips were imagined (or even retconned)? I imagine these scouting trips were looking for more than just news about the Nazgul. The company will need as much information about conditions along the way so they can plan their route, or at least the start of their route

From what I can find in the History of Middle-earth, the initial drafts of scouts being sent off makes no mention of Aragorn or the sons of Elrond. Indeed, Elrond's sons aren't mentioned for the first time until they accompany the Rangers down from the north, well into the writing. By this time, Lorien had already been established and visited, so I have to assume that when Tolkien went back and added them into the scouting, that he would have known what was in that area.

Concerning the chronology, I found this in The Treason of Isengard:

The chronology in FR, according to which the Company stayed more than two months in Rivendell and left on 25 December, had not yet entered. In the second version of The Council of Elrond’, which continued for some distance into the narrative of The Ring Goes South’, ‘the hobbits had been some three weeks in the house of Elrond, and November was passing’ when the scouts began to return; and at the Choosing of the Company the date of departure was settled for ‘the following Thursday, November the seventeenth’ (pp. 113, 115).7 In the new text the same was said (‘some three weeks … November was passing’), but this was changed, probably at once, to ‘The hobbits had been nearly a month in the house of Elrond, and November was half over, when the scouts began to return’; and subsequently (as in FR p. 290) Elrond says: ‘In seven days the Company must depart.’ No actual date for the leaving of Rivendell is now mentioned, but it had been postponed to nearer the end of the month (actually to 24 November, see p. 169).

Though, even then, a snowstorm turned them back on December 9th, so I don't think an earlier departure would have helped them much. I do find, however, that Tolkien himself addressed the change. His reasoning appears to have been to push back the departure so that more of the later journey could take place in spring rather than winter, with the 25th rather than the 24th being chosen so that he would only have to change the months for dates, rather than the numerical date values.


The next note on this page records my father’s decision to move the whole chronology of the Quest forward by a month:

Time Scheme. Too much takes place in winter. They should remain longer at Rivendell. This would have additional advantage of allowing Elrond’s scouts and messengers far longer time. He should discover Black Riders have gone back. Frodo should not start until say Dec. 24th.

It seems likely that 24 December was chosen as being ‘numerically’ one month later than the existing date, 24 November (p. 169); and that it was changed to 25 December to make the new dates agree ‘numerically’ with the existing time-structure (since November has 30 days but December 31): see p. 368. I do not understand the statement here that ‘the [Elrond] should discover Black Riders have gone back’, since the final text of ‘The Ring Goes South’ had been reached in Gandalf’s words ‘It is rash to be too sure, yet I think that we may hope now that the Ringwraiths were scattered, and have been obliged to return as best they could to their Master in Mordor, empty and shapeless.’

This also suggests that allowing the scouts time for a more thorough search was the primary in-world justification for the delay, at least in Tolkien's mind.

(Italics are quotes from the book. Bold Italics are where Christopher is himself quoting long portions of Tolkien's drafts.)

 

[Flammifer]

Good research JJ48,

My impression of Christopher's comments is that perhaps JRRT doth protest too much. I now go back to the supposition that he could not resist the quest starting out from Rivendell on Christmas, and finishing on the Annunciation. This serendipitous opportunity may have occurred to him late, but, once it did, I suspect he found it so irresistible that he was willing to accept less than his usual brilliance in in-frame explanations.

 

[Rachel Port]

Thanks JJ48. That's pretty much what I remembered, the bit about too much happening in winter especially - though the change is more in the beginning than the end.