Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Perhaps they didn't want to become worse Kinslayers by killing their brothers?
Feanorean Storylines
- Thread starter Marielle
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No, they didn't. That's what Maedhros would have to do (or try to do) to stop Amros from starting the Third Kinslaying. Or put him in chains.
But what I really meant is they weren't willing to kill themselves, or break the Oath while alive, to avoid joining the Third Kinslaying. Understandable that they didn't want to risk going to the Everlasting Darkness, of course... but Eonwe and the Valar judge them for the Third Kinslaying, and the Silmarils burn them, apparently because they chose to join the Third Kinslaying when they still had willpower and could have continued resisting the Oath. They gave in too soon.
But what I really meant is they weren't willing to kill themselves, or break the Oath while alive, to avoid joining the Third Kinslaying. Understandable that they didn't want to risk going to the Everlasting Darkness, of course... but Eonwe and the Valar judge them for the Third Kinslaying, and the Silmarils burn them, apparently because they chose to join the Third Kinslaying when they still had willpower and could have continued resisting the Oath. They gave in too soon.
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Are there dire consequences in Mandos for elves who commit suicide?
Maybe? Tolkien seems to say that committing suicide or dying of weariness/grief is a reason not to reincarnate an elf, at least not until they stop wanting to die ... which just looks like a repeat of an earlier stated rule that Elves aren't reincarnated if they don't want to be. So it isn't clear to me what Tolkien was trying to say.
I think on the first page of the Amros thread there's discussion of the Catholic attitude towards suicide.
The sons of Feanor have to be more concerned about the Everlasting Darkness for breaking the Oath if they purposely kill themselves without first regaining the Silmarils. And if they do get to Mandos instead, they'll still be judged with "little pity" for the previous Kinslayings.
EDIT: And they have reason to fear they'd never be released from Mandos, in punishment -- or because the Valar can't release them from the Oath, as Maedhros comes to believe (and he's probably correct).
I think on the first page of the Amros thread there's discussion of the Catholic attitude towards suicide.
The sons of Feanor have to be more concerned about the Everlasting Darkness for breaking the Oath if they purposely kill themselves without first regaining the Silmarils. And if they do get to Mandos instead, they'll still be judged with "little pity" for the previous Kinslayings.
EDIT: And they have reason to fear they'd never be released from Mandos, in punishment -- or because the Valar can't release them from the Oath, as Maedhros comes to believe (and he's probably correct).
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Maybe they didn’t think about that when Feanor was making them swear that damn oath in the first place.
No kidding!
I don't think a single thought went through their heads in that moment other than desire for the Silmarils and AARRRRRGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KILL MORGOTH!!!!!!!
Feanor didn't even make them do it. It was totally voluntary and willing.
Something else occurred to me about repenting. Although the Second Kinslaying sickened Maedhros and Maglor, and the deaths of Dior's sons especially upset Maedhros, and they were strongly motivated to try to delay/refuse fulfilling the Oath, maybe the full horror of what they have done still doesn't fully hit home for them until the Third Kinslaying. Or hits it home in a new way. I think Maedhros goes and finds Elros and Elrond wherever they had been abducted to, intending to release them, and they're terrified of him. They react to him the same way he's seen elven children react to invading Orcs. That's a new way to force somebody to confront the full weight of the evil they've done.
I don't think a single thought went through their heads in that moment other than desire for the Silmarils and AARRRRRGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KILL MORGOTH!!!!!!!
Feanor didn't even make them do it. It was totally voluntary and willing.
Something else occurred to me about repenting. Although the Second Kinslaying sickened Maedhros and Maglor, and the deaths of Dior's sons especially upset Maedhros, and they were strongly motivated to try to delay/refuse fulfilling the Oath, maybe the full horror of what they have done still doesn't fully hit home for them until the Third Kinslaying. Or hits it home in a new way. I think Maedhros goes and finds Elros and Elrond wherever they had been abducted to, intending to release them, and they're terrified of him. They react to him the same way he's seen elven children react to invading Orcs. That's a new way to force somebody to confront the full weight of the evil they've done.
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In my fanfiction version of this story, Elrond and Elros remember the attack on the Havens as being committed by orcs. They were young children at the time, and had just seen their mother jump off a cliff. Overall, the whole experience was rather traumatic. So, memories would be shaped by fear and not necessarily entirely reliable. So then a teenage Elrond and Elros have to come to grips with the fact that something they thought they remembered did not actually happen the way they remembered it.
It's always been an interesting question how Elrond and Elros could have accepted Maglor as their foster father, given that they first catch sight of him with a bloody sword after the slaughter at the Havens. I chose to deal with this by making them partially ignorant. They know something of what happened, and something of elvish politics, but it's not like anyone has sat them down to explain the Oath of Fëanor in Maglor's household.
I doubt we will use that device in the Silmarillion Film Project, but I have to agree that the young boys would view the attacking elves with fear.
It's always been an interesting question how Elrond and Elros could have accepted Maglor as their foster father, given that they first catch sight of him with a bloody sword after the slaughter at the Havens. I chose to deal with this by making them partially ignorant. They know something of what happened, and something of elvish politics, but it's not like anyone has sat them down to explain the Oath of Fëanor in Maglor's household.
I doubt we will use that device in the Silmarillion Film Project, but I have to agree that the young boys would view the attacking elves with fear.
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I prefer them to be 6 (as in the last Tale of Years) partly to avoid that sort of device. I want them to be old enough to know and remember that Elves did this. If Maglor and/or Maedhros are to gain forgiveness let alone affection, I think they ought to have to earn it from children who know who they are and what they did. They should have to prove that they're sorry, and really mean it, and try to make amends. They shouldn't get off easy, or get away with lying about what happened. That means the twins will initially fear and hate them.
Half-elves have very good memories, if perhaps not so clear as Elves' memories. One of Earendil's earliest clear memories was of his mother singing over his cradle, when he was an infant, and he remembered her wearing the Elessar at the time. Significantly, he remembered that while still a mortal young man, sailing west trying to find his parents. Elrond and Elros might not remember their father, but they'll certainly remember their mother, and the attack.
That doesn't mean memories can't be distorted by fear and trauma, but I prefer them to know and remember the truth. I think it would make a more powerful story than letting the sons of Feanor take the easy way out of having to own up to what they did. I also want to avoid showing them lying to the twins. (It would also give us a chance to show them actually trying to make amends, which I think they did. Taking care of the twins was the last, or one of the last, good things they actually did in their lives, and I think it makes sense that it would push them to try to become somewhat better people. They can try to explain to children about the Oath and Illuvatar and the Void and so forth, but the simple mindset of children is sometimes a gift to see through excuses to the heart of the matter: they did evil things and have to admit it.)
We will also have to answer the question of why the twins don't run away. If I understand the Quenta passage correctly, they stayed with the Feanorians almost until the end of the First Age, well into adulthood. Initially the Feanorians take them back to Amon Ereb, but 2 years later Morgoth attacks and they all flee to the Isle of Balar. So now the Feanorians are on one side of the island, and everyone who survived the Havens is either on the other side, or leaves the Feanorian camp and goes over there ASAP. Why don't Elrond and Elros run away to the other side of the island? Or if they do run away (we can make a story about teenage runaways during the War of Wrath), why do they later go back to the Feanorians? Corey jokes about Elrond "growing up in captivity" and "Stockholm syndrome" but I don't want to show them being abused or kept as prisoners, and I don't think either is what Tolkien intended. If they find out the truth suddenly, after being lied to or misled for years, it seems to me they'd be more likely to run away permanently, than if they had already come to terms with what happened and the sons of Feanor had been honest and eventually earned reconciliation or forgiveness.
There's also the difficulty of hiding the truth from them, if any adults from the Havens ended up living among the Feanorians perforce. CRT introduced Cirdan and Gil-galad into the story as coming too late to save the Havens, and rescuing a lot of survivors. In the original texts where Cirdan doesn't exist, some or all of the survivors need to join the Feanorians because there's nowhere else to go. The Cirdan story is a good one and I think we should show him doing something, but I wonder... were the Falathrim able to get all the refugees away on their ships, even the severely wounded, and the missing? If anyone was left behind and survived, and didn't want to wander in the wilderness and get enslaved by Orcs... well they can try to cross the bay on a raft while still wounded, hide in the marsh hoping Cirdan's sailors return before they die of their wounds, or live with the Feanorians (and accept healing). Not a happy arrangement, and also not one that makes it easy to hide the truth from the twins.
Half-elves have very good memories, if perhaps not so clear as Elves' memories. One of Earendil's earliest clear memories was of his mother singing over his cradle, when he was an infant, and he remembered her wearing the Elessar at the time. Significantly, he remembered that while still a mortal young man, sailing west trying to find his parents. Elrond and Elros might not remember their father, but they'll certainly remember their mother, and the attack.
That doesn't mean memories can't be distorted by fear and trauma, but I prefer them to know and remember the truth. I think it would make a more powerful story than letting the sons of Feanor take the easy way out of having to own up to what they did. I also want to avoid showing them lying to the twins. (It would also give us a chance to show them actually trying to make amends, which I think they did. Taking care of the twins was the last, or one of the last, good things they actually did in their lives, and I think it makes sense that it would push them to try to become somewhat better people. They can try to explain to children about the Oath and Illuvatar and the Void and so forth, but the simple mindset of children is sometimes a gift to see through excuses to the heart of the matter: they did evil things and have to admit it.)
We will also have to answer the question of why the twins don't run away. If I understand the Quenta passage correctly, they stayed with the Feanorians almost until the end of the First Age, well into adulthood. Initially the Feanorians take them back to Amon Ereb, but 2 years later Morgoth attacks and they all flee to the Isle of Balar. So now the Feanorians are on one side of the island, and everyone who survived the Havens is either on the other side, or leaves the Feanorian camp and goes over there ASAP. Why don't Elrond and Elros run away to the other side of the island? Or if they do run away (we can make a story about teenage runaways during the War of Wrath), why do they later go back to the Feanorians? Corey jokes about Elrond "growing up in captivity" and "Stockholm syndrome" but I don't want to show them being abused or kept as prisoners, and I don't think either is what Tolkien intended. If they find out the truth suddenly, after being lied to or misled for years, it seems to me they'd be more likely to run away permanently, than if they had already come to terms with what happened and the sons of Feanor had been honest and eventually earned reconciliation or forgiveness.
There's also the difficulty of hiding the truth from them, if any adults from the Havens ended up living among the Feanorians perforce. CRT introduced Cirdan and Gil-galad into the story as coming too late to save the Havens, and rescuing a lot of survivors. In the original texts where Cirdan doesn't exist, some or all of the survivors need to join the Feanorians because there's nowhere else to go. The Cirdan story is a good one and I think we should show him doing something, but I wonder... were the Falathrim able to get all the refugees away on their ships, even the severely wounded, and the missing? If anyone was left behind and survived, and didn't want to wander in the wilderness and get enslaved by Orcs... well they can try to cross the bay on a raft while still wounded, hide in the marsh hoping Cirdan's sailors return before they die of their wounds, or live with the Feanorians (and accept healing). Not a happy arrangement, and also not one that makes it easy to hide the truth from the twins.
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This is my first post, but I have been listening to the Silmfilm podcast and I am finally up to date.
It's a long way yet, but I have always seen Elros as having an innate connection to the Edain. The ELVES of Beleriand do not fight in the War of Wrath, but the text seems to imply that Elros and Elrond did. The decision of Elros and Elrond to join in the climatic battle of the First Age, will foreshadow the Sons of Elrond making the same decision later on. It also explains why the Edain were so keen to accept Elros as king and why Elrond was given command of the Elvish forces in the SA.
Interesting! The War of Wrath is certainly a very hazy time period, and we will have to do a lot to flesh it out. I look forward to seeing Elrond and Elros there, and it's a good thought on how Elros becomes leader of the Edain.
And welcome to the Boards, cellardur! Great username.
And welcome to the Boards, cellardur! Great username
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
It’s not discussed what the Edain did either. Apart from Turin and Tuor’s separate tangles with the Easterlings in Dor-Lomin, there’s almost nothing from 495 FA to 587 FA; for all we know, they sat on their butts under the yoke of the Easterlings.
I haven't got time for a more detailed reply at the moment, but it is said that the Edain fought alongside the forces of the Valar.
This in part is why I believe Elros needs to have led them. I don' think it comes of well if we have brave captains of the Edain leading their people in a decade long war only for the leadership to suddenly be given over to Elros.
I have to imagine that the sundered fates of Elros and Elrond will be a significant subplot in our telling of the War of Wrath - so I whole-heartedly agree that we need to show HOW Elros becomes the King of Numenor. Sure, he's got a neat bloodline, but he didn't just come out of nowhere, there.
I agree Earendil's twins need to do something in the War of Wrath, but I don't envision them having prominent battle leadership positions or even being prominent warriors. Elrond knows how to fight, but he is a healer and his primary role is healing, which in Eldarin culture means he's expected to avoid fighting whenever possible. I think Elros was also a healer, leading to the Numenorean custom that the King is a healer even when (in Gondor) he also has to be a warrior. The twins' role in the world was to help the remaining people (Elves and Men) after the War of Wrath build new lives -- that's a healer thing to do.
I don't think battle is the only way Elros can be shown developing leadership potential or connecting with Mortals. I think it's going to be very important that he chooses to become mortal, a condition that most Mortals resent and find utterly terrifying and miserable and hopeless. He even leaves behind his own twin and everyone else he knew and loved to become mortal, because he feels so called to do it. He is going to be a spiritual inspiration and leader, and eventually the very first priest of Eru (who isn't Manwe). The Edain have had many military leaders, but never a spiritual/religious leader. Nobody anywhere has ever offered any mortal hope that being mortal is anything other than being doomed to the Outer Darkness, or to total nonexistence. Nobody but Finrod even tried to guess that there might be hope, and as Andreth pointed out he could comfortably speculate about the fate of Men after death because Elves don't have to face or contemplate true death for another 235782359 zillion millennia. Mortals have existed in uttermost despair from the beginning of their race. Elros is the first person to ever speak of hope to them, because he has enough hope for... something (?) to choose to become one of them. (We will have to decide why he makes that Choice.) He can be depicted as basically a prophet, in the Biblical sense.
This ties with the elevation of the Numenoreans being an attempt by the Valar (known and permitted by Eru) to try to repair some of the results of the fall of the Second Children -- again, healing.
But I think if we talk about this more now, we should continue in a separate thread for Elrond and Elros.
I don't think battle is the only way Elros can be shown developing leadership potential or connecting with Mortals. I think it's going to be very important that he chooses to become mortal, a condition that most Mortals resent and find utterly terrifying and miserable and hopeless. He even leaves behind his own twin and everyone else he knew and loved to become mortal, because he feels so called to do it. He is going to be a spiritual inspiration and leader, and eventually the very first priest of Eru (who isn't Manwe). The Edain have had many military leaders, but never a spiritual/religious leader. Nobody anywhere has ever offered any mortal hope that being mortal is anything other than being doomed to the Outer Darkness, or to total nonexistence. Nobody but Finrod even tried to guess that there might be hope, and as Andreth pointed out he could comfortably speculate about the fate of Men after death because Elves don't have to face or contemplate true death for another 235782359 zillion millennia. Mortals have existed in uttermost despair from the beginning of their race. Elros is the first person to ever speak of hope to them, because he has enough hope for... something (?) to choose to become one of them. (We will have to decide why he makes that Choice.) He can be depicted as basically a prophet, in the Biblical sense.
This ties with the elevation of the Numenoreans being an attempt by the Valar (known and permitted by Eru) to try to repair some of the results of the fall of the Second Children -- again, healing.
But I think if we talk about this more now, we should continue in a separate thread for Elrond and Elros.
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Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Perhaps Elros stirs up the Edain in rebellion against the Easterlings to reclaim his heritage?
The kings role in Gondor was both a healer and a warrior.
With so little information, there are may interpretations. I think prominent leadership positions especially amongst the Edain is very likely. Elros and Elrond would have been children when the War of Wrath began, but by the end they would be in their 50s. Half-elves don't age like men. Earendil and Dior were both leading their people in their 30s and they were the leaders of Elvish communities. Elrond/Elros in their 50s would already be amongst the oldest and most experienced amongst te Edain.
As for Elrond's role, I always imagined he followed a similar trajectory to Eowyn. The young Elrond, at least partly for necessity, but also for choice was constantly at war. He fought in the War of Wrath, he was the general Gil-galad put in charge of reinforcing Eregion. He was the Vice-Regent in the East to guard against Mordor. He was Gil-galad's herald in the Last Alliance. It's in the Third Age, where he stops being the warrior.
As you said, healers are more adept when they refrain from killing. At some point it seems Elrond takes a step back. After the Last Alliace, we never see him leading armies into battle. He does not fight in the War of the Ring and it's Glorfindel that lead's Rivendell's forces in the wars against Angmar. I think we can show the change in Elrond's character how like Eowyn he gives up the sword to focus primarily on healing.
I love this part and agree wholeheartedly. It is a fantastic idea. Though, I am not sure he leaves behind everyone he loved. Elros and Elrond would have spent the majority of their lives with the Edain. It's even possible that Elros has fallen in love with one of the Edain when he makes his decision.
Luthien,
The priest of Eru is something that we really can stress and it's precisely why Isildur can curse the dead. It is really a fantastic idea and makes it more tragic when the Numenoreans begin to fear death and long for immortality, when arguably their three most revered ancestorys Luthien, Earendil and Elros all desired/chose the gift of Eru.
Having said that, we cannot escape from the fact that the Edain were in the middle of a major war. Just like Aragorn was a healer, a scholar and a warrior, I feel Elros should be the same. The UT tells us that Elendil was very much like Aragorn in both face and character. I think it would work well to see the parallels between Elros, Elendil and Aragorn.
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
So how will the Edain fight against the Easterlings? They're under the yoke of the Easterlings from 472 FA to when the War of Wrath begins, and apart from the brief disturbance from Turin in 495 FA, they don't seem to do anything without outside help.
The whole host of Valinor with Maiar and Vanyar and Noldor is attacking Morgoth, the Orcs, and the Easterlings. They have plenty of opportunity to rebel. Nor are all of them enslaved, some of them live on the Isle of Balar.
My personal idea of Elrond's life is that he was always a healer, and only participated in a few key battles when he absolutely had to. By the time of the fall of Eregion, there probably weren't even all that many Elves left in Middle-earth who had been born in the First Age.
My personal idea of Elrond's life is that he was always a healer, and only participated in a few key battles when he absolutely had to. By the time of the fall of Eregion, there probably weren't even all that many Elves left in Middle-earth who had been born in the First Age.
Does it imply this? In most accounts the twins are either abandoned in a cave fairly early.
There must have been several First Age Elves including the likes of Gildor, Celeborn, Cirdan, Galdor etc.
Gil-galad needed a general and chose Elrond. Gil-galad needed a military commander to hold the east and chose Elrond. I just don't see the mighty kingdom of Lindon being so deserted of elves, that they had to choose an inexperienced commander to lead them.
I guess we will just have to disagree on how we interpret the text and see which was the host goes when the time comes, many years from now.