Feanorean Storylines

cellardur

Active Member
That wasn't what I meant. I meant that they probably weren't prominent famous heroes who everyone in Beleriand had heard of. They don't even get names.
No they weren't great heroes like Turin, Tuor or Hador, but they were still close relatives and people that Elros and Elrond would have probably liked to meet.
I did not remember this person. Can you please point me to where they are described or named? I thought Orchaldor was the nickname or title of Galdor. In any case, I thought there was a statement somewhere that Elrond and Elros were the only descendants of the heroic chieftains of the Edain. I wish I could remember where I read it.
He was a Numenorean noble, who would later marry Aldarion's sister.
Because Elmo, Galadhon, and Celeborn were all millennia older than Dior. If they were alive they would be more likely to be kings than Dior, who was very young. It seems to me the Sindar would have picked the eldest royal, like the Noldor did.
Why? The Sindar were a lot more loyal to Elwe than the Noldor were to Fingolfin. The people of the Havens had no problem with Earendil being their leader. We don't even know for sure if the Noldor did pick the eldest royal, in Tolkien's latest ideas it seems they used Salic Law. The Noldor also don't seem to have even had kings through the female line, whilst the Sindar obviously did.

Dior took the name as Elwe's heir and I see no reason, why the Elves that love Thingol the most would not accept his heir. Even more so when he is the grandson of Melian and the son of Luthien, who is the greatest and most beloved of all the Elves
I don't see that Tolkien said they were forbidden. Eonwe summoned all the Elves and Men to his banner. Why would he summon them, but make a law banning them from doing anything?
I can't find the quote so perhaps I just imagined it, but it makes a lot of sense for the exiled Noldor to be forbidden from taking part. The Sindar might have been allowed to fight, but the Valar may have wanted to make it perfectly clear the exiles completely failed. It makes perfect sense for them to emphasis the Fall or Morgoth had nothing to do with the rebellion.
I don't think Elrond and Elros did nothing. I don't think Maedhros and Maglor were doing nothing. I don't think anyone chose to hide and do absolutely nothing during the War of Wrath, because why would anyone want to do that? They were not cowards or pacifists. I think Gil-galad, the Feanorians, the Sindar, the Edain, the Exiles, and the Dwarves were all fighting against Morgoth's hordes. I can't see any reason why any of them would refuse to participate. They hate Morgoth, and finally have hope of his defeat.
The reason the exiles might have been excluded is that the Valar wanted to draw a line between the rebellion and what was going on now.
The Exiles need not be effective or accomplish anything significant in the War. They certainly don't have many forces left. I don't think that's a reason to make them refuse to even try.
It's not a case of them refusing to try, but not being allowed to. They had tried things by themselves and utterly failed. Now the Valar were showing what they could do.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
@cellardur I guess that we’re maybe mistaking each others’ opinions to be more extreme than intended?

I don’t disagree there are a lot of people Elrond and Elros will want to meet, including wanting to just meet Sindar and people from the Havens in general. I just don’t think these folks can be called their immediate family. I think at the least they will want to visit the other side of the island, maybe as teenagers and without permission...

Maybe nobody can stay the whole time on the Isle of Balar because.... it’s not there anymore in the Third Age. Was it destroyed along with Beleriand? Did everyone have to flee the island?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
@cellardur I guess that we’re maybe mistaking each others’ opinions to be more extreme than intended?

I don’t disagree there are a lot of people Elrond and Elros will want to meet, including wanting to just meet Sindar and people from the Havens in general. I just don’t think these folks can be called their immediate family. I think at the least they will want to visit the other side of the island, maybe as teenagers and without permission...

Maybe nobody can stay the whole time on the Isle of Balar because.... it’s not there anymore in the Third Age. Was it destroyed along with Beleriand? Did everyone have to flee the island?
The Isle of Balar was one of two camps for the survivors of the destruction of the Havens of the Falas, and Cirdan lived there for some time, helping Earendil during this time, but the Isle had vanished by the Third Age, with no indication of its fate or how it vanished.
 

cellardur

Active Member
@cellardur I guess that we’re maybe mistaking each others’ opinions to be more extreme than intended?

I don’t disagree there are a lot of people Elrond and Elros will want to meet, including wanting to just meet Sindar and people from the Havens in general. I just don’t think these folks can be called their immediate family. I think at the least they will want to visit the other side of the island, maybe as teenagers and without permission...

Maybe nobody can stay the whole time on the Isle of Balar because.... it’s not there anymore in the Third Age. Was it destroyed along with Beleriand? Did everyone have to flee the island?
I think perhaps we are.

I am not against the Feanorians raising the twins from say 6 to 20 (20 seems a fitting age for the family to go out by themselves). I like the idea of the twins becoming close with Maglor and Maedhros. Even small things like Maglor teaching Elrond how to play the harp can work well. However, when I think when they hit 20 they are no longer boys to be looked after. Whilst still very, young they have a duty to the Edain and arguably the Sindar to go and start protecting their people. I think they can even leave on good terms. Then in the next 30 years or so the twins begin to learn about lore from Eonwe, they learn about the Edain and the Eldar. It's here we can start see the twins having different perspectives.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I can't find the quote so perhaps I just imagined it, but it makes a lot of sense for the exiled Noldor to be forbidden from taking part. The Sindar might have been allowed to fight, but the Valar may have wanted to make it perfectly clear the exiles completely failed. It makes perfect sense for them to emphasis the Fall or Morgoth had nothing to do with the rebellion.

The reason the exiles might have been excluded is that the Valar wanted to draw a line between the rebellion and what was going on now.

It's not a case of them refusing to try, but not being allowed to. They had tried things by themselves and utterly failed. Now the Valar were showing what they could do.
I don't hate the idea, but I'm not sold either. I can understand them wanting to "draw a line" as you say, but their army came with the intent to pardon the Exiles, not punish or humiliate them further. Everyone knows they failed, it's obvious and the Exiles feel it very keenly. There isn't any need for pointing and laughing.

But my biggest objection is that the sons of Feanor aren't going to obey that. They have next to no respect for the authority of the Valar, and will absolutely see this as humiliation and not accept it at all. They will fight no matter what Eonwe says.

What I can see much more easily is everyone, absolutely everyone, refusing to associate with or march alongside Feanorians, or heal wounded Feanorians, or speak to them, or... anything. Nearly everybody completely hates them. Even the survivors of Himlad who abandoned Celegorm and Curufin, who were on the receiving end of 2 Kinslayings, probably want nothing to do with Maedhros' people. And I can believe people coming out of Valinor not being allowed to march beside any Exiles. That's "The rebellion is NOT part of this mission." without pointing and laughing, or banning Exiles from the one redeeming activity that the Valar are now willing to pardon them for doing. It also avoids unnecessarily humiliating or condemning completely innocent people like Gil-galad who were born in exile, many of them half-Sindarin.
 

cellardur

Active Member
I don't hate the idea, but I'm not sold either. I can understand them wanting to "draw a line" as you say, but their army came with the intent to pardon the Exiles, not punish or humiliate them further. Everyone knows they failed, it's obvious and the Exiles feel it very keenly. There isn't any need for pointing and laughing.

But my biggest objection is that the sons of Feanor aren't going to obey that. They have next to no respect for the authority of the Valar, and will absolutely see this as humiliation and not accept it at all. They will fight no matter what Eonwe says.

What I can see much more easily is everyone, absolutely everyone, refusing to associate with or march alongside Feanorians, or heal wounded Feanorians, or speak to them, or... anything. Nearly everybody completely hates them. Even the survivors of Himlad who abandoned Celegorm and Curufin, who were on the receiving end of 2 Kinslayings, probably want nothing to do with Maedhros' people. And I can believe people coming out of Valinor not being allowed to march beside any Exiles. That's "The rebellion is NOT part of this mission." without pointing and laughing, or banning Exiles from the one redeeming activity that the Valar are now willing to pardon them for doing. It also avoids unnecessarily humiliating or condemning completely innocent people like Gil-galad who were born in exile, many of them half-Sindarin.
I guess we disagree. I don't see it as humiliating, but Eonwe not wanting to get caught up in the Doom of Mandos. It also honours the choice they made willingly. They chose to fight without the help of the Valar, they chose to rebel. The Valar were merciful and listened to Earendils plea, but the Noldor especially the exiles could do with some humility.

As for Maedhros and Maglor, in the end they seemed to focus more on attacking other Elves than Morgoth's forces. They weren't fighting Morgoth's forces prior, they were in hiding.

The bolded is the key part. If they have no respect for the authority of the Valar, then that's the biggest reason they should be kept away from the Host of Valinor.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I don't disagree Eonwe wants to tell them to stay away from his forces. And he doesn't need to tell his forces to avoid the Feanorians. Everybody is avoiding them.

I just disagree that they'll willingly abstain from fighting Morgoth. They hate Morgoth a ton, and the reason they weren't fighting him earlier and engaging in Kinslayings instead is definitely not because they hate the Sindar more than Morgoth, or stopped caring about fighting him. It's because their war failed against him miserably, and they were helpless to oppose him after the Fifth Battle. But during the War of Wrath they no longer need to hide. They aren't taking on the Iron Throne alone -- even though absolutely everybody avoids them like the plague and refuses to team up with them, Morgoth can no longer pour his entire army on just their one group.

The other Exiles no longer need to hide from Morgoth either, but they would be more likely to obey Eonwe.

I don't think the Doom of Mandos would be a reason for such a ban, because it was lifted by the Valar at that point. They pardoned the Exiles. Wanting to draw a very clear line between the Rebellion and the deliverers is a good reason to withhold permission or authority to actually join forces with the army from Valinor. Segregation, essentially. Noldor from Valinor not being allowed to fight in the same group as their long-lost cousin or invite him into their battalion. Kind of like Orodreth allowing Gwindor to lead a group to the Fifth Battle, as long as he fought under Fingon's banner instead of Maedhros'. Eonwe could refuse to actually lead Exiles behind his own banners, or let the Valinorean Elves march behind any Exile's banner. He could decline to invite Exiles to join in any of his offensive actions.

But the more I think about it the more I can't agree it could become an actual prohibition against all fighting whatsoever. Is Eonwe really going to say that Exiles can never lift a hand against any Orcs or other monsters they meet? What about self-defense? Or if some Exiles come upon a group of Werewolves eating some Mortal children, are they required to let the Humans die? Would the Valar punish them if they killed the monsters to save the children?

What I'm trying to say is, there's no realistic, practical way to live in peace with Morgoth except to run away and hide. Which isn't an option once Eonwe summons everybody to his banner. Not allowing them to fight ever, not even in self-defense or the defense of non-combatants, just breaks down in the situation of people trying to survive in a very violent, chaotic, dangerous place where there's nowhere to hide anymore. I don't think there was a home front, especially if Balar was destroyed, nor much distinction between self-defense, defending your community, and taking the offence against the Orcs coming closer and closer to finding your family. A prohibition would become a death sentence to the very people the Valar are supposedly pardoning and saving, including many who never were part of the Rebellion at all.


EDIT: I've edited this, so please tell me cellardur if you can see the parts that I added with editing.

We probably won't agree whether Elrond is a healer or a warrior-general, but I think that if there's no home front, and chaos and violence everywhere, then a person who trained as a healer and is more comfortable and talented in that role is still going to be forced to fight often enough to gain experience at it.
 
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cellardur

Active Member
I don't disagree Eonwe wants to tell them to stay away from his forces. And he doesn't need to tell his forces to avoid the Feanorians. Everybody is avoiding them.

I just disagree that they'll willingly abstain from fighting Morgoth. They hate Morgoth a ton, and the reason they weren't fighting him earlier and engaging in Kinslayings instead is definitely not because they hate the Sindar more than Morgoth, or stopped caring about fighting him. It's because their war failed against him miserably, and they were helpless to oppose him after the Fifth Battle. But during the War of Wrath they no longer need to hide. They aren't taking on the Iron Throne alone -- even though absolutely everybody avoids them like the plague and refuses to team up with them, Morgoth can no longer pour his entire army on just their one group.

The other Exiles no longer need to hide from Morgoth either, but they would be more likely to obey Eonwe.

I don't think the Doom of Mandos would be a reason for such a ban, because it was lifted by the Valar at that point. They pardoned the Exiles. Wanting to draw a very clear line between the Rebellion and the deliverers is a good reason to withhold permission or authority to actually join forces with the army from Valinor. Segregation, essentially. Noldor from Valinor not being allowed to fight in the same group as their long-lost cousin or invite him into their battalion. Kind of like Orodreth allowing Gwindor to lead a group to the Fifth Battle, as long as he fought under Fingon's banner instead of Maedhros'. Eonwe could refuse to actually lead Exiles behind his own banners, or let the Valinorean Elves march behind any Exile's banner. He could decline to invite Exiles to join in any of his offensive actions.

But the more I think about it the more I can't agree it could become an actual prohibition against all fighting whatsoever. Is Eonwe really going to say that Exiles can never lift a hand against any Orcs or other monsters they meet? What about self-defense? Or if some Exiles come upon a group of Werewolves eating some Mortal children, are they required to let the Humans die? Would the Valar punish them if they killed the monsters to save the children?

What I'm trying to say is, there's no realistic, practical way to live in peace with Morgoth except to run away and hide. Which isn't an option once Eonwe summons everybody to his banner. Not allowing them to fight ever, not even in self-defense or the defense of non-combatants, just breaks down in the situation of people trying to survive in a very violent, chaotic, dangerous place where there's nowhere to hide anymore. I don't think there was a home front, especially if Balar was destroyed, nor much distinction between self-defense, defending your community, and taking the offence against the Orcs coming closer and closer to finding your family. A prohibition would become a death sentence to the very people the Valar are supposedly pardoning and saving, including many who never were part of the Rebellion at all.


EDIT: I've edited this, so please tell me cellardur if you can see the parts that I added with editing.

We probably won't agree whether Elrond is a healer or a warrior-general, but I think that if there's no home front, and chaos and violence everywhere, then a person who trained as a healer and is more comfortable and talented in that role is still going to be forced to fight often enough to gain experience at it.
Yes I can see the edits. I think the problem is if I have already began to reply, before you have completed the EDIT.

I guess I disagree on how much faith Maedhros and Maglor have in fighting Morgoth. Turin and Beren with their band of outlaws outdo Maglor and Maedhros. The sons of Feanor may hate Morgoth, but they also seem to fear him the most with the possible exception of Maedhros, but even that changes. Several times they are the ones, against attacking Morgoth and they simply go for the easier option.

Even if they have confidence that Morgoth can be defeated what do you mean they will be fighting? If the two of them start fighting without the main army they will be picked off easily. You can't just sneak behind an army and then join in the battle. They would be discovered by scouts and brought in.

Eonwe is simply going to forbid them from joining his forces. The survivors have been reduced so much, that they can't fight any wars on their own. It's either accept the ban and wait until the war is over, or fight a small guerilla war like Turin or Beren did. Considering the Sons of Feanor never decided to do this I don't see them suddenly starting.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
There are other possibilities, though. For instance, the Exiles could be involved in campaigns separate from the main Host. Taking Thangorodrim isn't a single 5-day battle, obviously, so there are stages. Morgoth had overrun Beleriand at that point. They have to regain footholds before they're even ready to attack Thangorodrim. So, yes, I don't see Maedhros and Maglor forming a guerilla band and picking off stray orcs, but I do see them having an interest in retaking the fortress of Himring from Morgoth's forces.

I think the real point is that we aren't going to tell the story of Beleriand for 8 seasons, and then dump all of our surviving/existing characters in a safe haven on the Isle of Balar and then do an elaborate war campaign with all new characters the audience is unlikely to care about. Sure, Eonwë and Finarfin are characters they know and will be happy to see again. And obviously Earendil gets to fight in the battle. But it seems very unlikely to me that we would choose to have Gil-galad sit this one out. We're going to be seeing more of him later, but we'll want to establish what kind of High King he is during the War of Wrath. Círdan knows the coastal waters very well; surely the Teleri would be happy for his collaboration? I'm just saying that, while maintaining that the Noldor who rebelled have failed in their objective to get revenge against Morgoth...we do not necessarily need to have Eonwë ban them from participation. There can be conditions, and there can be exceptions (I get that no one wants to march with the Sons of Fëanor.) But we don't need it to be a blanket ban, and we probably wouldn't choose to do that.
 

cellardur

Active Member
There are other possibilities, though. For instance, the Exiles could be involved in campaigns separate from the main Host. Taking Thangorodrim isn't a single 5-day battle, obviously, so there are stages. Morgoth had overrun Beleriand at that point. They have to regain footholds before they're even ready to attack Thangorodrim. So, yes, I don't see Maedhros and Maglor forming a guerilla band and picking off stray orcs, but I do see them having an interest in retaking the fortress of Himring from Morgoth's forces.
They would need an army to do this and some collaboration with the main forces.
I think the real point is that we aren't going to tell the story of Beleriand for 8 seasons, and then dump all of our surviving/existing characters in a safe haven on the Isle of Balar and then do an elaborate war campaign with all new characters the audience is unlikely to care about. Sure, Eonwë and Finarfin are characters they know and will be happy to see again. And obviously Earendil gets to fight in the battle. But it seems very unlikely to me that we would choose to have Gil-galad sit this one out. We're going to be seeing more of him later, but we'll want to establish what kind of High King he is during the War of Wrath. Círdan knows the coastal waters very well; surely the Teleri would be happy for his collaboration? I'm just saying that, while maintaining that the Noldor who rebelled have failed in their objective to get revenge against Morgoth...we do not necessarily need to have Eonwë ban them from participation. There can be conditions, and there can be exceptions (I get that no one wants to march with the Sons of Fëanor.) But we don't need it to be a blanket ban, and we probably wouldn't choose to do that.
How many original characters are we going to have left? The agreement seems to be Galadriel and Celeborn have crossed the mountains. Apart from Maedhros and Maglor how many other named Noldor are we going to have left? The other sons of Feanor, children of Fingolfin, children of Finarfin, Glorfindel and Ecthelion are all going to be dead. Even Voronwe is probably going to be with Earendil. Unless we want to start developing the likes of Gildor.

The Teleri refuse to step on land. The Silmfilm is a tragic story. Virtually none of our main characters are getting out of the First Age alive.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
They had an army when they sacked the Havens. They likely still have it. It's not enough to take on Morgoth, obviously, but that doesn't mean they can't do anything with it. And yes, they'd need to coordinate. Which is why I am not in favor of Eonwë issuing some kind of official ban. Maedhros and Maglor are obviously on hand after the War to sneak into Eonwë's camp and steal the silmarils. They were aware of who had them and where they were kept. All of this implies at the very least communication between the groups, and likely some level of collaboration as well. It certainly does not suggest that Maedhros and Maglor were sitting on the other side of the continent while all of this was going down. But we have not yet discussed the drowning of Beleriand and how we're going to cause or handle that, either.

The surviving princes of the Noldor at the time of the War of Wrath are Maedhros, Maglor, Celebrimbor, and Gil-Galad. Galadriel is, as you pointed out, over the mountains and out of the picture. We will likely have some characters from Nargothrond and Gondolin as well. Voronwë's son Littleheart? Gildor Inglorion? Will we want Erestor to be there? I'm not sure yet, but I have to imagine it will look weird if we leave them all on the Isle of Balar throughout the War of Wrath.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
They had an army when they sacked the Havens. They likely still have it. It's not enough to take on Morgoth, obviously, but that doesn't mean they can't do anything with it. And yes, they'd need to coordinate. Which is why I am not in favor of Eonwë issuing some kind of official ban. Maedhros and Maglor are obviously on hand after the War to sneak into Eonwë's camp and steal the silmarils. They were aware of who had them and where they were kept. All of this implies at the very least communication between the groups, and likely some level of collaboration as well. It certainly does not suggest that Maedhros and Maglor were sitting on the other side of the continent while all of this was going down. But we have not yet discussed the drowning of Beleriand and how we're going to cause or handle that, either.

The surviving princes of the Noldor at the time of the War of Wrath are Maedhros, Maglor, Celebrimbor, and Gil-Galad. Galadriel is, as you pointed out, over the mountains and out of the picture. We will likely have some characters from Nargothrond and Gondolin as well. Voronwë's son Littleheart? Gildor Inglorion? Will we want Erestor to be there? I'm not sure yet, but I have to imagine it will look weird if we leave them all on the Isle of Balar throughout the War of Wrath.
Will we have Voronwe go on the voyages with Earendil?
 

cellardur

Active Member
They had an army when they sacked the Havens. They likely still have it. It's not enough to take on Morgoth, obviously, but that doesn't mean they can't do anything with it. And yes, they'd need to coordinate. Which is why I am not in favor of Eonwë issuing some kind of official ban. Maedhros and Maglor are obviously on hand after the War to sneak into Eonwë's camp and steal the silmarils. They were aware of who had them and where they were kept. All of this implies at the very least communication between the groups, and likely some level of collaboration as well. It certainly does not suggest that Maedhros and Maglor were sitting on the other side of the continent while all of this was going down. But we have not yet discussed the drowning of Beleriand and how we're going to cause or handle that, either.
They had a small force, but they were slaughtering a defenseless group of refugees. Of all the Kinslayings this is going to come across as the worst, because there's virtually no opposition. Earendil with his crew are away. It's such a cruel thing to do that some of their own people will finally abandon them whilst others will switch sides. Then they manage to escape from the real force led by Gil-galad. By the end I don't think they have anything that can be called an army.

At the end of the war the Noldor are summoned to Eonwe, forgiven and advised to come back to Valinor. There's where Maedhros and Maglor can demand the Silmarils. I feel it is vitally important that no son of Feanor plays any part in the regaining of the Silmaril. The situation could parallel Luthien and Beren. The Sons of Feanor play no part in the winning of the jewell, but claim it after others have done what they could not.

Not to mention having the Sons of Feanor fight, make Eonwe seem like a double crosser. Allowing the Sons to fight, believing they would be given the Silmarils then rejecting them. Then there is the issue of judgement. Eonwe urges them to return to Valinor for their judgement.

But Eönwë answered that the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fëanor formerly possessed, had now perished, because of their many and merciless deeds, being blinded by their oath, and most of all because of their slaying of Dior and the assault upon the Havens. The light of the Silmarils should go now into the West, whence it came in the beginning; and to Valinor must Maedhros and Maglor return, and there abide the judgement of the Valar, by whose decree alone would Eönwë yield the jewels from his charge. Then Maglor desired indeed to submit, for his heart was sorrowful, and he said: The oath says not that we may not bide our time, and it may be that in Valinor all shall be forgiven and forgot, and we shall come into our own in peace.
The surviving princes of the Noldor at the time of the War of Wrath are Maedhros, Maglor, Celebrimbor, and Gil-Galad. Galadriel is, as you pointed out, over the mountains and out of the picture. We will likely have some characters from Nargothrond and Gondolin as well. Voronwë's son Littleheart? Gildor Inglorion? Will we want Erestor to be there? I'm not sure yet, but I have to imagine it will look weird if we leave them all on the Isle of Balar throughout the War of Wrath.
This highlights what I mean by small changes having big implications. It had been agreed that Cirdan would be one of the first elves to awaken with no family (perhaps I am wrong about no family in ME). If he has no family then Gil-galad's mother can't be his relative. It means we have to come out with another reason why Fingon would send his son to Cirdan and why Cirdan would accept the son of Fingon. It's not so hard to explain if Orodreth is his father, but still we will need to create a connection.

I don't think we can keep kicking the Gil-galad parentage down the road. If he is Fingon's son then we are going to have to give Fingon a wife or have him fall in love with a Sindar woman in Season 4.

Cirdan can be seen helping the Teleri with the sailing and Cirdan has a special connection with the Valar. In fact Cirdan must be a favourite of the Valar due to his self-sacrificial actions. I am not sure if the Host came up with this on the own or based it on Tolkien's essay, but Cirdan is sacrificing his desire for Valinor to help others. I don't think there is any problem with having him help. The argument can even be made that Gil-galad was NOT an exile, but an innocent party born in ME and just as much Sindarin as Noldor. So he too can be called. The same for Voronwe and any descendant.

It's the ones that rebelled and left Valinor, which are the big problems and none more so than the repeated kinslayers.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think that Gil-galad was born in Middle-Earth. It's mentioned that he's still a child during the Dagor Bragollach, maybe Idril acts as regent?... Wish Tolkien had mentioned Idril more after the Fall of Gondolin.

Let me think of the remaining members of the House of Finwe after the Fall of Gondolin:

House of Feanor: Passed Over, twice-kinslayers

House of Fingolfin:
  • Idril Celebrindal: Daughter of Turgon, Wife of Tuor of the House of Hador
  • Earendil: Son of Idril and Tuor, seven years old
House of Finarfin:
  • Finarfin: At Aman
  • Galadriel: Youngest child of Finarfin, location unknown
So if anyone proclaims Gil-galad as king, from any branch save Feanor's, he has little competition. Question is still up in the air about which branch.
 
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cellardur

Active Member
I think that Gil-galad was born in Middle-Earth. It's mentioned that he's still a child during the Dagor Bragollach, maybe Idril acts as regent?... Wish Tolkien had mentioned Idril more after the Fall of Gondolin.

Let me think of the remaining members of the House of Finwe after the Fall of Gondolin:

House of Feanor: Passed Over, twice-kinslayers

House of Fingolfin:
  • Idril Celebrindal: Daughter of Turgon, Wife of Tuor of the House of Hador
  • Earendil: Son of Idril and Tuor, seven years old
House of Finarfin:
  • Finarfin: At Aman
  • Galadriel: Youngest child of Finarfin, location unknown
So if anyone proclaims Gil-galad as king, from any branch save Feanor's, he has little competition. Question is still up in the air about which branch.
You are right we know very little. She ruled over the Gondolin refugees (and refugess in general) with Tuor and used the Elessar to heal the environment and the people, but not with the same power or skill as Earendil.

Gil-galad has three names, 2 of whom are the amongst the greatest of all the Children. Galadriel is the 2nd greatest of the Noldor, whilst Earendil is held up alongside Luthien. Gil-galad was a mighty king to quote Sauron, but with all due respect I can't imagine he possessed any qualities to put him above Earendil and Galadriel. Even Idril is older, the daughter of one High-King and the granddaughter of another. That's why I can only imagine Gil-galad became king over those three due to the line of succession.

I agree, Gil-galad was born in ME and to connect the story, he really needs a Sindarin mother.

EDIT

Voronwe could possibly be alive and of the House of Finwe, but it depends on what is decided.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I agree with everything MithLuin said.

Will we have Voronwe go on the voyages with Earendil?
Voronwe sailed away with Tuor and Idril. Earendil brought only 3 Mortals with him on the last voyage (and picked up Elwing).

Gil-galad was definitely born in Middle-earth, and was indeed a child during the Fourth Battle.

But how did this become about the line of succession suddenly? The War of Wrath is relevant to the Feanorian storylines, but please let's not derail the Feanorian thread with stuff from the Gil-galad thread. This thread is about the Dispossessed.


Edited long after: There's no evidence I can find what kind/species Earendil's crew were.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
So, back on topic, maybe we have some scenes with Huan and Celegorm hunting for wargs and Orcs? Maybe establish Huan as a presence whenever Celegorm is onscreen?
 

Marielle

Well-Known Member
Okay. So catching up, where are we at with the Sons? Maedhros is going to the parley because he, while highly skeptical, thinks it's an opportunity too great to pass up? Curufin has been his father's second and is already being shown as the most cunning of the sons; Celegorm is excited to be in Middle Earth and to be kicking orc behinds with Huan... have we settled the other sons into their Middle Earth attitudes yet? Am I understanding that right, and am I missing anything?

Staying faaaaaaar away from the landmine Amras is turning out to be (I confess, I didn't see that coming when I advocated for us using the Amrod and the Ships story, so... sorry?).

Is Maglor (already) fatalistically resigned? Is he going to make any attempt to rule over his brothers in the, what, 30 years Maedhros is imprisoned and probably presumed dead? Are we keeping that gap of time? If so, how do we plan to explain it? Will it be 30 years before the Fingolfin camp learns Maedhros is missing, or will Fingon disappear for three decades looking for his lost friend? I don't remember what the text says, if anything, about that.
 
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