Feanorean Storylines

Does it imply this? In most accounts the twins are either abandoned in a cave fairly early.
I don't understand what you mean. I'm certain they were always said to be raised to adulthood by Maedhros or Maglor, not by the Edain. In the Quenta where it talks about them in adulthood at all, the only thing I can remember it saying is that they were with Maglor.

I see that it does say "Elros his brother chose to abide with Men." but I always interpreted that to be something he decided after Eonwe told the twins that Manwe gave them a Choice of which Kindred to belong to, and that they didn't even meet Eonwe until after the end of the War of Wrath.
 
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I don't understand what you mean. They were always said to be raised to adulthood by Maedhros or Maglor, not by the Edain. In the Quenta where it talks about them in adulthood at all, the only thing it says is that they were with Maglor.
I am genuinely don't know where this is written. The earliest story had Elrond and Elros being abandoned by Feanor's sons as infants.

The LOTR explicitly tells us Elrond was there when Thangorodrim was broken. Maglor and Maedhros were only summed to the Host of the Valinor after Morgoth was defeated. Not to mention that Half-elves age like men. Earendil was the Lord of the Havens, married and a father of twins before 30, Elwing a similar case. Dior by his mid 30s was married, a father of three and had reestablished Doriath.

Unless there is a direct quote I find it very hard to believe that in any version of the story Elrond and Elros waited until their mid 50s and then suddenly decided to join the War of Wrath for the last few battles, ignoring the war for the previous 30+ years they were of age.
 
I am genuinely don't know where this is written. The earliest story had Elrond and Elros being abandoned by Feanor's sons as infants.

The LOTR explicitly tells us Elrond was there when Thangorodrim was broken. Maglor and Maedhros were only summed to the Host of the Valinor after Morgoth was defeated. Not to mention that Half-elves age like men. Earendil was the Lord of the Havens, married and a father of twins before 30, Elwing a similar case. Dior by his mid 30s was married, a father of three and had reestablished Doriath.

Unless there is a direct quote I find it very hard to believe that in any version of the story Elrond and Elros waited until their mid 50s and then suddenly decided to join the War of Wrath for the last few battles, ignoring the war for the previous 30+ years they were of age.
In the published Silmarillion, it's mentioned so:

"Great was the sorrow of Earendil and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons, and they feared that they would be slain; but it was not so. For Maglor took pity upon Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary with the burden of the dreadful oath."

Second edition, Houghtonmifflin books, page 247.
 
The earliest story had Elrond and Elros being abandoned by Feanor's sons as infants.
What version is that? I don't think I've ever seen it. Is it the Lost Tales? (I have forgotten most of the Lost Tales.) Every single version I can still remember, including the 1977 Silmarillion, says they were fostered by either Maedhros or Maglor. I guess I can quote a bunch of books that all say that, if you want me to.

Do you mean "where does it say he stayed with the Feanorians in adulthood" ? The passage I'm thinking of is
1937 Quenta said:
Yet not all the Eldalie were willing to forsake the Hither Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an age in the West and North, and especially in the western isles and in the Land of Leithian. And among these were Maglor, as hath been told; and with him for a while was Elrond Halfelven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be among the Elf-kindred;

"There when Thangorodrim was broken" does not have to mean he personally participated in destroying it. Everyone in Beleriand was there. Elrond never said he fought in the War, only that he witnessed it. If he was a healer he would not have fought except when he absolutely had to. Living in such a dangerous time he would have been trained to fight, but that was true of all Elven healers and women in times of war. However the Eldarin custom is that healers do not fight except when they absolutely have to. (What counts as absolute necessity isn't said, so we can decide.) Eregion's fall was apparently an example of that. The War of Wrath probably had some battles that were as well, but I do not picture Elrond or Elros as a great general in that War.


Looking at the Quenta I do see that "Of the march of the host of Fionwe to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt or suffered in the Hither Lands,"

That looks like the Elves left in Beleriand didn't participate in the War, right? Before now, I thought so. But I'm realizing it probably only means they didn't participate in the march out from Valinor to Beleriand. It continues:

"But at the last Fionwe came up out of the West,"

and later,

"he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East;"

Where it emphasizes again that the Edain fought, I now think the contrast is only with the Easterlings who helped Morgoth. I don't think it's meant to mean the Elves of Beleriand didn't participate at all. It would be really weird for them to abstain from avenging all their fallen comrades upon Morgoth's forces.
 
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It was Dior's sons, Elrond and Elros' uncles Elured and Elurin, through their mother Elwing, that were abandoned, in the woods of Doriath after the Fall of Doriath in 506 FA.
 
What version is that? I don't think I've ever seen it. Is it the Lost Tales? (I have forgotten most of the Lost Tales.) Every single version I can still remember, including the 1977 Silmarillion, says they were fostered by either Maedhros or Maglor. I guess I can quote a half dozen books that all say that, if you want me to.
In Letter 211 he outlines how Elrond was found abandoned in the cave and that's how he got the name 'Elf of the caves,' but he would later change the origin of he name.

'Elrond and Elros, children of Earendil (sea-lover) and Elwing (Elf-foam), were so called, because they were carried off by the sons of Feanor, in the last act of the fued between the high-elven houses of the Noldorin princes concerning the Silmarils; the Silmaril rescued from Morgoth by Beren and Luthien, and given to King Thingol Luthien's father, had descended to Elwing dtr. of Dior, son of Luthien. The infants were not slain, but left like 'babes in the wood', in a cave with a fall of water over the entrance. There they were found: Elrond within the cave, and Elros dabbling in the water.'

The quotes all suggest they spent some time with them as infants, not 50 years with them. I don't see how it makes any sense for Elrond and Elros to not seek out the rest of their kin, but remain in hiding with the Sons of Feanor.
"There when Thangorodrim was broken" does not have to mean he personally participated in destroying it. Everyone in Beleriand was there. Elrond never said he fought in the War, only that he witnessed it. If he was a healer he would not have fought except when he absolutely had to. Living in such a dangerous time he would have been trained to fight, but that was true of all Elven healers and women in times of war. However the Eldarin custom is that healers do not fight except when they absolutely have to. Eregion's fall was an example of that. The War of Wrath probably had some battles that were as well, but I do not think that Elrond or Elros was a great general in that War.
It says exactly the opposite in the Silmarillion.

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman. But at the last the might of Valinor came up out of the West, and the challenge of the trumpets of Eönwë filled the sky; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms, for the host of the Valar were arrayed in forms young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.

The Elves of Beleriand specifically did not see the host of Valinor, because they weren't there. It was the Edain and Elrond that were there. Elrond strongly implied he fought.

I remember well the splendour of their lances. It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days, and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the elves deemed that evil was ended forever and it was not so.

That's the full quote where he directly compares his participation in the Last Alliance with the War of Wrath. Yes it's possible he was just standing watching, but it doesn't seem likely.

In Eregion Elrond didn't have to go and fight. Cirdan could have gone, Galdor could have gone even Gil-galad himself could have gone. Elrond wasn't living in Eregion and defending himself when Sauron was attacked. He was given command of the army.

Just imagine the situation. Sauron has finally attacked the Noldor intent on wiping out Eregion. This is the worst threat to the Elves since Morgoth. So Gil-galad decides to send an inexperienced, reluctant, average general to lead his forces. That just makes Gil-galad look like an incompetent king. The other option is that in this dire situation, Gil-galad sends a skilled battle hardened general, with experience of leading the Edain in the War of Wrath.
It was Dior's sons, Elrond and Elros' uncles Elured and Elurin, through their mother Elwing, that were abandoned, in the woods of Doriath after the Fall of Doriath in 506 FA.
Both Dior and later his daughter's sons were captured. Whilst Elured and Elurin were never discovered, originally as outlined in the letter Elros and Elrond were discovered near a cave.
 
The Elves of Beleriand specifically did not see the host of Valinor, because they weren't there. It was the Edain and Elrond that were there. Elrond strongly implied he fought.
I talked about this in my previous post (you must have posted while I was editing it into my post). I do not think this means that the Elves of Beleriand refused to participate in the War. I think it means that they weren't in Eonwe's host when he was marching out of Valinor and into Middle-earth, and don't have first-hand knowledge of how the host was mustered and brought to Middle-earth.

I think you are misunderstanding Letter 211. I think it describes one version (a 1958 version, not an early one, and probably rejected) how the sons of Feanor found the sons of Earendil. It does not say that Maglor and Maedhros left them there to die. Like their uncles Elured and Elurin, they were captured (apparently by Amros' people) and in that version left in a cave to die. But then, Maglor and/or Maedhros found them and fostered them.

1926 Sketch of the Mythology said:
In a battle all the sons of Feanor save Maidros(4) were slain, but the last folk of Gondolin destroyed or forced to go away and join the people of Maidros.' Elwing cast the Nauglafring into the sea and leapt after it,' but was changed into a white sea-bird by Ylmir, and flew to seek Earendel, seeking about all the shores of the world.
Their son (Elrond) who is half-mortal and half-elfin,' a child, was saved however by Maidros.(in The Silmarillion, p. 247, Elrond and Elros were saved by Maglor).
1930 Quenta ch. 17 version I said:
But Maidros took pity upon her child Elrond, and took him with him, and harboured and nurtured him, for his heart was sick and weary with the burden of the dreadful oath.
1930 Quenta ch. 17 version II said:
But great was the sorrow of Earendel and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their son, for whom they feared death, and yet it was not so. For Maidros took pity on Elrond, and he cherished him, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maidros' heart was sick and weary" with the burden of the dreadful oath.
notes to 1930 Quenta 17 version II said:
10. This passage was rewritten thus:
But great was the sorrow of Earendel and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons; and they feared that they would be slain But it was not so. For Maglor took pity on Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary, &c.
1930 Quenta ch. 18 version II said:
Yet not all would forsake the Outer Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an age in the West and North, and especially in the western isles and the lands of Leithien. And among these were Maglor as has been told; and with him Elrond the Halfelfin,' who after went among mortal Men again, and from whom alone the blood of the elder race' and the seed divine of Valinor have come among Mankind
1930 Ealier Annals of Beleriand said:
229 Here Damrod and Diriel ravaged Sirion, and were slain. Maidros and Maglor gave reluctant aid. Sirion's folk were slain or taken into the company of Maidros. Elrond was taken to nurture by Maglor.
1930 Ealier Annals of Beleriand said:
240 Maglor, Maidros, and Elrond with few free Elves, the last of the Gnomes, live" in hiding from Morgoth, who rules all Beleriand and the North, and thrusts ever East and South.
Later 1930s Annals of Beleriand said:
329 [529]. Here Damrod and Diriel ravaged Sirion, and were slain. Maidros and Maglor were there, but they were sick at heart. This was the third kinslaying. The folk of Sirion were taken into the people of Maidros, such as yet remained; and Elrond was taken to nurture by Maglor.
1937 Quenta Silmarillion ending after the War of Wrath said:
Yet not all the Eldalie were willing to forsake the HitherLands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an age in the West and North, and especially in the western isles and in the Land of Leithien. And among these were Maglor, as hath been told; and with him for a while was Elrond Halfelven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be among the Elfkindred; but Elros his brother chose to abide with Men.
1951-2 Tale of Years C said:
532 [> 534 > 538] The Third and Last Kinslaying. The Havens of Sirion destroyed and Elros and Elrond sons of Earendel taken captive, but are fostered with care by Maidros.
1977 Quenta Silmarillion said:
Great was the sorrow of Eärendil and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons, and they feared that they would be slain; but it was not so. For Maglor took pity upon Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor's heart was sick and weary with the burden of the dreadful oath.


Cirdan was not a general or renowned warrior either. Galdor is not said to be from the First Age or even the Second Age, as far as I know. Gil-galad had to stay in Lindon and defend Lindon itself. The only other named, prominent survivors from the First Age were in Eregion or further east. I do not think Gil-galad had a large collection of amazing First Age generals to choose from. I think he had some First Age foot-soldiers without leadership skills, a man who was used to fighting from a ship (mostly actually fleeing from combat in a getaway ship), and a man who had done some fighting on land and had good leadership skills and a royal lineage. If Glorfindel was around he would have been sent instead, no matter how experienced Elrond was, so Glorfindel can't have arrived yet.

In the Last Alliance, Elrond is called the banner-bearer, minstrel, and herald of Gil-galad. That means some combat, but I never thought of that as a combat-primary or military leader position. I don't think he's ever called Gil-galad's general. None of the quotes says that Elrond ever even drew a sword in the War of Wrath. I think he fought some in that War, but I do not think any of those quotes require him to be a general.
 
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I have finally realized that when I edit my posts, nobody but me can see the edits. Everyone always replies to and quotes the rough drafts, even many days after I edit. That's unfortunate since I don't know how to preview my posts and I always have to edit them. I apologize for all the miscommunication. From now on I’ll have to double-post everything.

So I'll repost the parts above that nobody but me can see:

Do you mean "where does it say he stayed with the Feanorians in adulthood" ? The passage I'm thinking of is

1937 Quenta said:
Yet not all the Eldalie were willing to forsake the Hither Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an age in the West and North, and especially in the western isles and in the Land of Leithian. And among these were Maglor, as hath been told; and with him for a while was Elrond Halfelven, who chose, as was granted to him, to be among the Elf-kindred;
Looking at the Quenta I do see that "Of the march of the host of Fionwe to the North little is said in any tale; for in his armies went none of those Elves who had dwelt or suffered in the Hither Lands,"

That looks like the Elves left in Beleriand didn't participate in the War, right? Before now, I thought so. But I'm realizing it probably only means they didn't participate in the march out from Valinor to Beleriand. It continues:

"But at the last Fionwe came up out of the West,"

and later,

"he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East;"

Where it emphasizes again that the Edain fought, I now think the contrast is only with the Easterlings who helped Morgoth. I don't think it's meant to mean the Elves of Beleriand didn't participate at all. It would be really weird for them to abstain from avenging all their fallen comrades upon Morgoth's forces.
I also posted a list of quotes from the books describing Elrond and Elros being fostered by Maedhros or Maglor. but I think those were edits, too. Do you still want to see them?
 
I talked about this in my previous post. I do not think this means that the Elves of Beleriand refused to participate in the War. I think it means that they weren't in Eonwe's host when he was marching out of Valinor and into Beleriand, and don't have first-hand knowledge of how the host was mustered and brought to Middle-earth.
I think all the implications is not a question of them refusing to participate, rather they weren't asked. It seems the point was that the exiled Noldor utterly failed to defeat Morgoth. It was only the host of the West that managed to win and they did so without the help of the exiles. Is there anything to suggest they did take part in the war?

I think you are misunderstanding Letter 211. I think it describes one version (a 1958 version, not an early one, and probably rejected) how the sons of Feanor found the sons of Earendil. It does not say that Maglor and Maedhros left them there to die. Like their uncles Elured and Elurin, they were captured (apparently by Amros' people) and in that version left in a cave to die. But then, Maglor and/or Maedhros found them and fostered them.
The comment in the letter does not describe how the twins were found by the sons of Feanor, because it says they were 'carried off by the sons of Feanor.' It then goes they were not 'slain.' Who else would have considered slaying them, but the Sons of Feanor. I am sure it wasn't Elwing's people considering killing her sons. Finally who else could have left them, but Feanor's Sons.Why would Elwing's people have left them. As said this is one of the latest versions.

None of those quotes imply they spent their entire team with Maglor or Maedhros except the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion and that was changed. Maglor is replaced by Gil-galad. They all suggest the twins spent some time with them when younger and then left. Elrond and Elros had family out there to seek out. It just makes no sense for 50 year old Elrond and Elros to be hanging out with the murderers of their kin in exile, when they could find their actual family.
 
Is there anything to suggest they did take part in the war?
Yes, I already quoted it. I will post it again (bolding is mine).

But at last Fionwe came up out of the West, and the challenge of his trumpets filled the sky; he summoned unto him all Elves and Men from Hithlum unto the East; and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of his arms, for the sons of the Gods were young and fair and terrible, and the mountains rang beneath their feet.
The meeting of the hosts of the West and of the North is named the Great Battle, the Battle Terrible, and the War of Wrath. There was marshalled the whole power of the Throne of Morgoth, and it had become great beyond count, ...

The comment in the letter does not describe how the twins were found by the sons of Feanor, because it says they were 'carried off by the sons of Feanor.' It then goes they were not 'slain.' Who else would have considered slaying them, but the Sons of Feanor. I am sure it wasn't Elwing's people considering killing her sons. Finally who else could have left them, but Feanor's Sons.Why would Elwing's people have left them. As said this is one of the latest versions.
They were carried off by Damrod and Diriel (Amrod and Amros) the younger sons of Feanor, and found or released from captivity by Maidros (Maedhros) and Maglor the older sons of Feanor. This is stated in every version of the Quenta and Annals, including the 1977 published Silmarillion. They each say that the sons of Earendil were fostered by Maedhros or Maglor, who had mercy on them and decided not to kill them. I don't understand which part you object to.

None of those quotes imply they spent their entire team with Maglor or Maedhros except the 1937 Quenta Silmarillion and that was changed. Maglor is replaced by Gil-galad.
That was changed by Christopher Tolkien, not by JRR Tolkien. CRT also made a large number of other changes which can be seen by comparing the book The Lost Road, to the 1977 Silmarillion.

TThey all suggest the twins spent some time with them when younger and then left. Elrond and Elros had family out there to seek out. It just makes no sense for 50 year old Elrond and Elros to be hanging out with the murderers of their kin in exile, when they could find their actual family.
But their only surviving family was in Valinor. Their nearest remaining relatives were Galadriel and Celeborn (somewhere in Eriador) and the sons of Feanor, and Gil-galad. All the other Noldorin and Sindarin royalty and all the lords of the Edain were dead. The Silmarillion says "and love after grew between" the twins and their foster father. Clearly, they forgave him for participating in the Third Kinslaying. We have been discussing on this thread how that came about.
 
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I agree that it isn't clear how long the sons of Earendil stayed with the sons of Feanor after they grew to adulthood. To me it seems like they both stayed until the end of the First Age, which I agree is a surprising decision for them to make.
 
Yes, I already quoted it. I will post it again (bolding is mine).
That quote does suggest that the remaining elves fought, but the problem is that there is no mention of them fighting. The Edain, the Vanyar, Maiar and the Noldor of Valinor are mentioned but never the exiles. I also vaguely call that either in his letters or in a note, Tolkien once mentioned that none of the exiled Noldor were permitted to fight. I will have a look tomorrow as you said. I need to look for that quote, but it could be the Sindar were permitted to join, but not the Noldor.


They were carried off by Damrod and Diriel (Amrod and Amros) the younger sons of Feanor, and found or released from captivitiy by Maidros (Maedhros) and Maglor the older sons of Feanor. This is stated in every single version of the Quenta and Annals, including the 1977 published Silmarillion. I already quoted all of them for you. They all say that the sons of Earendil were fostered by Maedhros or Maglor, who had mercy on them and decided not to kill them. I don't understand why you do not agree that this means they were fostered by a son of Feanor in the Silmarillion.
You are missing my point. I am not arguing that they were never fostered by Maglor and Maedhros. It's clear that many versions of the story have that.

I was questioning where it says they were fostered up until the END of the War of Wrath. Aragorn was fostered by Elrond and was traveling alone at 20. Turin too was fostered by Thingol, but he too left at 20. Nothing in the text suggest that Elros and Elrond didn't leave at a similar age, giving them plenty of time to join the Edain. In fact the latest account Tolkien penned has them being left by the Feanorians as infants still.
That was changed by Christopher Tolkien, not by JRR Tolkien. He also made a huge number of other changes which can be seen by comparing the book, The Lost Road, to the 1977 Silmarillion.
Maybe he made the change, because JRR Tolkien had written elsewhere that Maglor had thrown himself into the sea. It was a lot of work putting the notes in order.
Their only surviving family was in Valinor. Their nearest remaining relatives were Galadriel and Celeborn (somewhere in Eriador) and the sons of Feanor, and Gil-galad. All the other Noldorin and Sindarin royalty and lords of the Edain were dead. The Silmarillion says "and love after grew between" the twins and their foster father. Clearly, they forgave him for participating in the Third Kinslaying. We have been discussing on this thread how that came about.
Gil-galad as you said was alive and very likely other Sindar relatives. Members of the House of Hador were still about and even Cirdan was close kin. Having love for the Sons of Feanor does not mean they wished to or spent 50+ years with them. This is the bone of contention. It's the argument they spent 50+ years hanging around with Maglor/Maedhros instead of going to their kin.
I agree that it isn't clear how long the sons of Earendil stayed with the sons of Feanor after they grew to adulthood. To me it seems like they both stayed until the end of the First Age, which I agree is a surprising decision for them to make.
This is the point and I have seen your reply.

We will disagree on this interpretation. For me there are few major problems with them staying with he Sons of Feanor.
1. Other Half-Elven were very active especially in times of crisis, but the twins did nothing.
2. Why were the Edain so comfortable with Elros as a king
3. How did Elros grow to love the Edain?
4. How did Elrond end up experience the War of Wrath just like he did the Last Alliance
5. Why does the quote below say REMAIN.

Elros chose to be of Man-kind and remain with the Edain;

Remain implies he had already was with them and hen chose to continue living with them.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
 
In fact the latest account Tolkien penned has them being left by the Feanorians as infants still.
We will just have to agree to disagree about what Letter 211 says.

Maybe he made the change, because JRR Tolkien had written elsewhere that Maglor had thrown himself into the sea. It was a lot of work putting the notes in order.
Maglor did that at or after the end of the First Age. I don't understand why that would impact what Elrond and Elros did before the end of the First Age. I assume that when Maedhros and Maglor "refused to harken" to Eonwe after the end of the War, Elrond and Elros did "hearken" and look for Eonwe.

and very likely other Sindar relatives. Members of the House of Hador were still about
No, the other descendants from Hador, from Haleth's brother, and from Beor were dead. The only exceptions were Elwing and her sons. And one or two unnamed people who were the ancestors of Erendis, who weren't invented until the 1960s and probably the sons of Earendil had never heard of. If any of Thingol's relatives had been alive (except Celeborn and Galadriel who had run off to Eriador) they would have been king of Doriath instead of Dior. Cirdan is not descended from Thingol or either of his brothers, and anyway it was already decided that in this project Olwe is the only relative Thingol has. When I suggested making Celeborn and Cirdan related to Thingol like they are in the books, I was firmly shot down.

Remain implies he had already was with them and hen chose to continue living with them.
I think it means that because all Half-elves were born spiritually mortal (as Manwe said when he judged Earendil and Elwing) that Elros chose not to change the nature of his soul to become spiritually elven. Elros continued to be the same kind of creature he was born as.

1. Other Half-Elven were very active especially in times of crisis, but the twins did nothing.
Which ones do you mean? Earendil was in the sky, Elwing was in Aman, and Dior and his sons were dead. Earendil killed Ancalagon, but he was not able to do anything from up in his flying ship until he had a flying opponent. He wasn't allowed to set foot on Middle-earth so he could not participate as a foot-soldier or cavalry in the War of Wrath. Elrond and Elros had no opportunity to go meet him.

I don't think they did nothing during the War. I think that sometimes they fought, but mostly they acted in their capacity as healers. Healing wounds during wartime isn't nothing, it's necessary.
 
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Then after the War, Elros lived with the Edain for 32 years before they started sailing to Numenor, so he did not arrive on the Island as a total stranger. 32 years as a prophet is enough time to make a positive impression. And he probably at least met some Edain during the War of Wrath, too.
 
We will have a lot of decisions to make when we reach that part of the story. The Isle of Balar is an open question. Are *all* the refugees of Beleriand there? Or are there elves and/or Men in other places in Beleriand, either as enslaved peoples, prisoners, or small holdouts? And if there are a bunch of different groups on the Isle of Balar, what's the situation like there? Is Círdan in charge and everyone just listens to him? Or is it Gil-galad? And, ummmm...if the Fëanoreans are there, how is anyone not killing them for the attacks on Doriath and the Havens? Some things to consider!

Gil-galad and Elrond need to meet prior to the War of Wrath, and Elrond and Elros should be raised by Maglor (who is with his brother Maedhros during this time). So, we'll have time to work out those dynamics.

As for the childhood of Elrond and Elros, I think we are most likely to go with the published Silmarillion version, where they were fostered by Maglor. That is such an intriguing story, and the narrative remark, 'as little might be thought' says so much. Can't leave that out! But of course, we will be fleshing out a lot of different things leading up to this (not least the voyages of Earendil, their father). And I know that that is not the *only* story of their childhood. Elrond existed as a character first before he ever got a twin brother, of course.

That being said, it is most certainly true that the half-elven mature as mortals and (prior to whole concept of 'choice' in the matter being introduced), would most likely have aged and died as mortals as well. So, certainly, we will want to tell the story of how Elrond and Elros interact with the Edain; it is so significant to the story of the history of elves and men, and so important to this story.

As for the various options/variations/possibilities, we need to consider what story we are telling, and what those details say, rather than choose a version of the story and not worry about the implications.

For instance, is Gil-galad idle and not involved in the War of Wrath? What will that do for his character later (when he is meant to be the leader all through the 2nd Age)? Is he too young to fight? (And if so...when, exactly, was he born, if elves do not have children in time of war? Keep in mind that young!Andreth will be in our telling of this story.) Is he forbidden from joining the Host of the Valar? And why did Tolkien include that part about the elves of Beleriand not participating in the War of Wrath - what was the thematic reason for that restriction? (Most likely, to prove the Doom of Mandos true, that *nothing* the Noldor did in Middle-earth prior to the arrival of the Valar's aid was successful in any way.) Is there any 'wiggle room' there, to preserve the overall stance that the Noldor in Middle-earth have been thoroughly and utterly defeated, but not to take it so far as forbidding *any* of our surviving characters from taking part? In the way that Beleg and Mablung can join in the wars of the Noldor, but Doriath is still fenced against outsiders and aloof, could some few surviving characters (such as Gil-galad) take part?

Anyway, a lot of questions, and we are certainly not there yet, so I don't expect to answer them. But I do like the idea of focusing on the Edain during this time period, as we'd likely be interested in transitioning from Elf-centric in the First Age to Men-centric in the Second Age. Elrond and Elros serve as the perfect bridge.
 
Maglor did that at or after the end of the First Age. I don't understand why that would impact what Elrond and Elros did before the end of the First Age. I assume that when Maedhros and Maglor "refused to harken" to Eonwe after the end of the War, Elrond and Elros did "hearken" and look for Eonwe.
I think the text is not clear. It could imply that Elrond and Maglor remained together late into the Second Age, which is perhaps one of the reasons Christopher changed it.
No, the other descendants from Hador, from Haleth's brother, and from Beor were dead. The only exceptions were Elwing and her sons. And one or two unnamed people who were the ancestors of Erendis, who weren't invented until the 1960s and probably the sons of Earendil had never heard of. If any of Thingol's relatives had been alive (except Celeborn and Galadriel who had run off to Eriador) they would have been king of Doriath instead of Dior. Cirdan is not descended from Thingol or either of his brothers, and anyway it was already decided that in this project Olwe is the only relative Thingol has. When I suggested making Celeborn and Cirdan related to Thingol like they are in the books, I was firmly shot down.
I don't think you can use the reasoning of Tolkien, not coming up with a character as a reason for why Elrond and Elros would not have looked for them.

Further there are mentions of descendants of the House of Hador such as Orchaldor so we know Elros and Elrond still had close kin in both the House of Hador ad the House of Beor. It was only the House of Haleth, which was effectively destroyed, except the twins themselves.

Why would any relative of Thingol, be the king of Doriath over his grandson and heir Dior? By most accounts Elmo, who has been purged in the SilmFilm was his brother and Elmo had descendants including Celeborn. There is no reason to assume Thingol's entire family was wiped out.

Even if the Silmfilm has removed Cirdan/Celeborn as kinsmen to Thingol, we still have the twins relation to Nimloth.

So the twins would have had relatives in the House of Hador, the House of Beor and the at least relatives of Nimloth.
I think it means that because all Half-elves were born spiritually mortal (as Manwe said when he judged Earendil and Elwing) that Elros chose not to change the nature of his soul to become spiritually elven. Elros continued to be the same kind of creature he was born as.
I am not sure this is true. The Valar have the debate to discuss this very matter. It's only after that the Doom of the Half-elven is declared.
Which ones do you mean? Earendil was in the sky, Elwing was in Aman, and Dior and his sons were dead. Earendil killed Ancalagon, but he was not able to do anything from up in his flying ship until he had a flying opponent. He wasn't allowed to set foot on Middle-earth so he could not participate as a foot-soldier or cavalry in the War of Wrath. Elrond and Elros had no opportunity to go meet him.
I meant the previous Half-elven were out accomplishing great things at a young age. By their 30s they were commanding kingdoms and bearing children. Elrond and Elros sitting at home does not fit what their ancestors did.
I don't think they did nothing during the War. I think that sometimes they fought, but mostly they acted in their capacity as healers. Healing wounds during wartime isn't nothing, it's necessary.
If they had stayed with Maedhros and Maglor until the end, then they would not have been healers, but doing nothing for 30 years of the war, where they could have acted.

Elrond's history already shows he fought in many wars. These are the descriptions that go with him.

He was as noble and fair as an elf-lord, as strong as a WARRIOR, as wise as a wizard, as venerable as a king of dwarves, and as kind as summer.

The face of Elrond was ageless, neither old nor young, though in it was written the memory of many things both glad and sorrowful. His hair was dark as the shadows of twilight, and upon it was set a circlet of silver; his eyes were grey as a clear evening, and in them was a light like the light of stars. Venerable he seemed as a king crowned with many winters, and yet hale as a TRIED WARRIOR in the fulness of his strength. He was the Lord of Rivendell and mighty among both Elves and Men.

We will have to agree to disagree too on our interpretation of Elrond, in particularly in his youth.
 
And, ummmm...if the Fëanoreans are there, how is anyone not killing them for the attacks on Doriath and the Havens?
I think they didn't want to become kinslayers themselves by going on the offensive. It's one thing to kill Elves to defend yourself. But as Luthien said, to start the war against even a kinslayer isn't right. It's also possible that the Feanorians outnumbered them. Some people could advocate for attacking them, and there can be arguments about it... at the very least, the two camps would not be talking or exchanging news.

Gil-galad and Elrond need to meet prior to the War of Wrath
They could, but why do you say they must? There'll be plenty of time afterwards.

As for the childhood of Elrond and Elros, I think we are most likely to go with the published Silmarillion version, where they were fostered by Maglor. That is such an intriguing story, and the narrative remark, 'as little might be thought' says so much. Can't leave that out!
Yes, there is so much potential there to interesting things with a fostering story. How did they get from fear and hate to forgiveness and even love? Was there teenage rebellion? (Though we can tell the same story with Maedhros... ) :)

And what happened to the other survivors of the Havens? Did all of them escape with Cirdan's rescue mission, or did some have to live with the Feanorians? Did some get captured while trying to rescue Elrond and Elros, and stay with the twins to try to protect them from the Feanorians?

That being said, it is most certainly true that the half-elven mature as mortals and (prior to whole concept of 'choice' in the matter being introduced), would most likely have aged and died as mortals as well.
Elrond doesn't look like a middle-aged mortal during the Third Age, so I do not think they aged to look like 58-year-old mortals. I think the Valar must have put them in a sort of unaging in-between-state after Manwe declared they would have a Choice, to prevent them from dying of old age before they got a chance to make their Choices.

I don't think you can use the reasoning of Tolkien, not coming up with a character as a reason for why Elrond and Elros would not have looked for them.
That wasn't what I meant. I meant that they probably weren't prominent famous heroes who everyone in Beleriand had heard of. They don't even get names.

Further there are mentions of descendants of the House of Hador such as Orchaldor
I did not remember this person. Can you please point me to where they are described or named? I thought Orchaldor was the nickname or title of Galdor. In any case, I thought there was a statement somewhere that Elrond and Elros were the only descendants of the heroic chieftains of the Edain. I wish I could remember where I read it.

Why would any relative of Thingol, be the king of Doriath over his grandson and heir Dior?
Because Elmo, Galadhon, and Celeborn were all millennia older than Dior. If they were alive they would be more likely to be kings than Dior, who was very young. It seems to me the Sindar would have picked the eldest royal, like the Noldor did.

And why did Tolkien include that part about the elves of Beleriand not participating in the War of Wrath - what was the thematic reason for that restriction? (Most likely, to prove the Doom of Mandos true, that *nothing* the Noldor did in Middle-earth prior to the arrival of the Valar's aid was successful in any way.) Is there any 'wiggle room' there, to preserve the overall stance that the Noldor in Middle-earth have been thoroughly and utterly defeated, but not to take it so far as forbidding *any* of our surviving characters from taking part?
I don't see that Tolkien said they were forbidden. Eonwe summoned all the Elves and Men to his banner. Why would he summon them, but make a law banning them from doing anything?

If they had stayed with Maedhros and Maglor until the end, then they would not have been healers, but doing nothing for 30 years of the war, where they could have acted.
I don't think Elrond and Elros did nothing. I don't think Maedhros and Maglor were doing nothing. I don't think anyone chose to hide and do absolutely nothing during the War of Wrath, because why would anyone want to do that? They were not cowards or pacifists. I think Gil-galad, the Feanorians, the Sindar, the Edain, the Exiles, and the Dwarves were all fighting against Morgoth's hordes. I can't see any reason why any of them would refuse to participate. They hate Morgoth, and finally have hope of his defeat.

The Exiles need not be effective or accomplish anything significant in the War. They certainly don't have many forces left. I don't think that's a reason to make them refuse to even try.
 
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I did not remember this person. Can you please point me to where they are described or named? I thought Orchaldor was the nickname or title of Galdor. In any case, I thought there was a statement somewhere that Elrond and Elros were the only descendants of the heroic chieftains of the Edain. I wish I could remember where I read it.
I will try to look in the books for both of these when I get home from work.
 
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