Amazon series:reactions and thoughts (Spoiler alert!)

[Ilana Mushin]

Another good example of Tolkien’s style as storyteller rather than omniscient narrator is the ‘narrator’ of The Hobbit, who is a parent telling a story to a child. Those of you who, like me, were read The Hobbit by a parent may have had a hard time distingiuishing what was ‘written’ and what was coming straight from my parent. My father happens to have a similar storytelling style when he told his own stories to us so maybe that’s what I’m drawing on. Certainly not ‘omniscient’ or omnipresent - quite the opposite.

 

[Odola]

So, as to the question of whether or not the narration "lies" - no, Tolkien does not usually pull a 'gotcha', where the narrator has claimed one thing, and then something different turns out to be true.

Exactly.

But he does allow his characters to believe things that may not be the case, based on their limited knowledge/perspective.

Characters, but not the readers. The readers usually get a hint that what they see is the limted perspective of a character and are not deliberatery led astray.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I was surprised by Aragorn and Arwen’s wedding as much as Frodo was the first time I read the book (and lots of other places where we only know what the Hobbits know). When I read it again, I was not surprised and indeed could see the way it was foreshadowed elsewhere in the book. I don’t see how this is different from my RoP experience when I only started seeing Halbrand as Sauron shortly before Galadriel did. On second watching, this was not a surprise so I was able to see Halbrands words and actions differently. I do think that Sauron was cosplaying being a Human in Numenor. He seemed totally amused by the whole experience.

 

[Odola]

I don’t see how this is different from my RoP experience when I only started seeing Halbrand as Sauron shortly before Galadriel did. On second watching, this was not a surprise so I was able to see Halbrands words and actions differently. I do think that Sauron was cosplaying being a Human in Numenor. He seemed totally amused by the whole experience.

I saw it instantly on the raft when Halbrand could read all Galadriel's internal problems and called her out on them after having known her for like about half a minute. Not a feat a mere mortal would be able to pull off imho.
But that is not the problem. The problem was more that the narration - even when leaving Galadriel and as such not filtered through her - still seems more fixed on misdirection than on telling a story. The aim seemed to be to confuse and not to explain. And while this may be interesting for a while, it does get tiring when overdone.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I saw it instantly on the raft when Halbrand could read all Galadriel's internal problems and called her out on them after having known her for like about half a minute. Not a feat a mere mortal would be able to pull off imho.
But that is not the problem. The problem was more that the narration - even when leaving Galadriel and as such not filtered through her - still seems more fixed on misdirection than on telling a story. The aim seemed to be to confuse and not to explain. And while this may be interesting for a while, it does get tiring when overdone.

If you saw it instantly then you knew well before Galadriel did, which is fine - you were able to follow the story knowing that Halbrand was Sauron. We don’t know lots of the backstory for Sauron yet - such as why he got on a boat, and why he was so seemingly amused at being in Numenor and wanting to stay there. I expect to learn more of this next season. I‘m certainly confused and unclear about parts of this story but am holding judgement until they have had a chance to tell it. There will be a time in the future when we will have the whole thing laid before us and can assess it. I keep thinking of the poor readers of LoTR who had to wait a year between the publication of Two Towers and Return of the King. That would have been rough.

 

[David_M_R]

Charlie Vickers had at the time of a recent Q&A (I think about two weeks ago) filmed his first scene for season 2 (and Morfydd had not), and it was described (with the showrunners there and giving him permission) as something of a parallel to Galadriel's first scene, "the early story of Sauron", and there's something about him getting off a cart (much humour was made of this "exclusive leak"). So we are definitely getting some Sauron backstory and it's early in the season, as from what I know the cast hasn't seen anything of scripts past the first three episodes (and from what Charlie said of the timing).

 

[MithLuin]

Yes, I suspect that will help connect the dots and explain what he's doing with those shipwrecked people in the first place.

I don't necessarily agree that the viewer should know right away what is going on. When you meet a stranger, without any context, you don't immediately try to figure out...is this person good or evil? You have other questions about who they are and what they are up to. An encounter in Faerie is a bit different, where magic can be dangerous, so you want to know right away what your risk is. But it's still not always clear. Many beings are encountered in George MacDonald's Phantastes and Lilith. The books are very much about goodness and evil. And yet...it is not always clear right away. Sometimes, the protagonist finds out the hard way, or someone's true nature is only revealed by external events (ie, see them in moonlight for the first time). It can be frustrating not to know right away, but that is how the story is told.

For Rings of Power, it did feel as though they were playing a game with the viewer. Sure, can you spot Sauron? But also, can you tell if someone is good or evil? Galadriel, of course, should be good. But is she? The Stranger, trying to figure out if he is a peril to the Harfoots...he might be 'good', but he sure did kill those fireflies. With Halbrand, he said some rather dark things all along, sure. But, is he someone with darkness in his past trying to be better, someone who is callous and jaded, or someone with evil intent? I would not say that the truth of the matter was obvious, and I do think he was letting Galadriel see what she wanted to see. That does not mean that the narration lied. Allowing for obfuscation as the characters only gradually learn the truth is a device of storytelling...and dragging out the reveal for too long can be frustrating. It's a trick to induce the correct level of anticipation and curiosity in viewers without dragging it out into frustration. The framing device of How I Met Your Mother refuses to reveal who the children's mother is for a VERY long time - it's a gimmick, designed to frustrate viewers.

Now that Rings of Power is past that reveal, they can tell their story without playing the "who is Sauron?" game. The viewers will know who Celebrimbor is working with if Annatar returns to Eregion to make more Rings. We may learn that he was already in Lindon before Season 1 began. Etc.

 

[Odola]

I don't necessarily agree that the viewer should know right away what is going on.

And who has ever claimed that?

But if each episode- save the last one, and partially the 6th) limits itself mostly to do not much else but to rub it in that the viewer still does not know anything for sure as yet - and there is little other story beside that - then that lets the viewers fall asleep (happened to me several times - and I never heard so many various people report falling asleep while watching a show than with this one).
And most people expected a Tolkien kind of story - which means a heroic story - and not so much a mistery story.

 

[MithLuin]

I haven't rewatched the show yet, so I cannot say what already knowing the reveal will do for my interest in the storytelling. I doubt it will ruin anything, though. So I do not agree that the only story being told was 'Can you spot Sauron?' Personally, I did not fall asleep while watching the show. I can see how people would find the storytelling slower and less tense than other shows. Arondir being chased in the tunnel, having to go into the water, and then being grabbed by orc hands was a very suspenseful sequence and well done. I can see someone having to look away during that, but not nodding off! But if you're not interested in one of the plot lines, then it does become an exercise in waiting to get back to the scenes you're more interested in.

"Where is Gandalf?" is a mystery in Fellowship of the Ring that persists from when Frodo is preparing to leave the Shire until Frodo wakes up in Rivendell. Neither Frodo nor the reader knows why Gandalf has not yet appeared. While the reader knows that Frodo is planning to depart the Shire and that selling Bag End is simply a means to that end, the reader does not know about the Conspiracy or that Frodo's friends are well aware of both his intentions and of the existence of the Ring. That surprise is revealed in Crickhollow, after Frodo has walked all the way across the Shire with Sam and Pippin and been chased by Black Riders and met High Elves. 'What happened to the party of dwarves in Moria?' is a question raised during the Council of Elrond, and not answered until they find the book in the Chamber of Mazarbul. And of course when Gandalf returns, there is confusion of 'is it Gandalf or is it Saruman who is hanging out in Fangorn?' (Answer: both, hence the confusion) Several lines throughout Lord of the Rings do not make much sense until you find out that Aragorn is marrying Arwen, which is meant to be a surprise at the end. And of course, the meaning of Frodo's dreams is not always immediately apparent - he has one in the House of Tom Bombadil in the first book that is not explained until the departure from the Grey Havens in the last book.

In other words - adventures do consist of quite a few surprises, and preserving the mystery of them is part of the storytelling. It's fine if someone does not enjoy mysteries, of course.

 

[Odola]

"Where is Gandalf?" is a mystery in Fellowship of the Ring that persists from when Frodo is preparing to leave the Shire until Frodo wakes up in Rivendell. Neither Frodo nor the reader knows why Gandalf has not yet appeared.

But does the story consist mostly of showing us various bushes or cuppbards suggesting Gandalf might hide in any of those? It just mentions from time to time that Frodo still wonders about it.

The Conspiracy is also mostly low-key in the beginning, the story told before this reveal makes sense and is suspencefull even without noticing any of the small hints that there might be any (most of the suspense in that part of the story is build on the queston - "Will the Black Riders get Frodo?" - and not even that much on "Who are they?". Same with the mistery of Aragorn - the far more important question is : "Will he get the hobbits safely to Rivendell?" - than "Who exacty is that guy?").

And I am as found of a good detective story as anyone. But those usually work hard to earn their reveals.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I saw this season as the prelude to the ‘heroic’ story that will be forthcoming, just as the start of Fellowship of the Ring up to and including the Council of Elrond sets us up for the quest to destroy the Ring and defeat Sauron. This story is not trying to be Lord of the Rings where the Hobbits have a number of discrete episodes of ‘adventure’ before they get to Riventell. It is starting with the establishment of the viewpoints of several different sets of peoples: Elves, Harfoots, Dwarves, Numenoreans (within that Kings Men and Faithful), Middle-Earth humans (through the Southlanders) and Orcs. And that’s before you even get to individual characters. On paper I agree this sounds like too much to manage in one show and I can understand why people may have also experienced the pacing of the show as such. In this season we learned about the Elves’ worry about their fading and their search for a solution, discovery of Mithril and its impact on the status quo in Khazad-Dum, establishment of Mordor as a realm for Orcs (most of the ‘action’ revolved around this plot), relocation of the Southlanders alongside Numenoreans to establish what will become Gondor, a Harfoot setting off on an adventure with a Wizard. Galadriel is the only character really asking the question of ‘who is Sauron’. I think that the show invites you to think of who is good and who is evil and how one is defined by one’s choices rather than essence or destiny. That’s very Tolkienian in my view.

 

[Odola]

Galadriel is the only character really asking the question of ‘who is Sauron’.

Does she? One of her mamy problems is that she starts to ask this very question much too late. And when she gets the answer she lets him go for no reason while he still is weak and a small unit of elves send after him might have contained him easily. She asked "where is Sauron?" for centuries. But not "who?".

I think that the show invites you to think of who is good and who is evil and how one is defined by one’s choices rather than essence or destiny. That’s very Tolkienian in my view.

That last in this very form is an modern and not a Tolkienian idea. While choices are very important in Tolkien they cannot usually override fate but serve to fullfill it. Tolkien said that it is a special gift (or curse) of Men to be able act outside of their fate, but this is not said of elves or Ainur.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Does she? One of her mamy problems is that she starts to ask this very question much too late. And when she gets the aswer she lets him go for no reason whild he still is weak and a small unit of elves send after him might have contained him easily She asked "where is Sauron?" for centuries. But not "who?".

— Yes this is a problem for Galadriel and one of the reasons she didn’t recognise him when he was right in front of him. I just meant that she is the only character who cares about where Sauron is at all - The other Elves have decided to ignore the question, it isn’t yet relevant to Dwarves or Harfoots or even Numenoreans. Some humans are waiting for his return but not actively seeking him out.


That last in this very form is an modern and not a Tolkienian idea While choices are very important in Tolkien they cannot usually override fate but serve to fillfill it. Tolkien said that it is a special gift (or curse) of Men to be able act outside of their fate, but this is not said of elves or Ainur.

I disagree that this is a modern interpretation. the whole point of the Music of the Ainur is that it is the collaboration that makes the music - everyone plays their part. But in the end it all comes back to Iluvatar - and made more wonderful by the introduction of variations. So Melkor can try his discord but in the end it gets woven into the music and makes it more wonderful. So the individual choices of characters will always end up bending back into Iluvatar’s plan. And this is precisely because part of Iluvatar’s plan is to allow free will.

 

[David_M_R]

I've seen a bunch of posts from people that have said their second watching was better than their first, and that the ability to self-pace (either watch episodes in groups, or just binge the show) resolved what seemed like pacing issues during the weekly release. Someone said that after gotten over the surprise of what the showrunners were choosing to do, they could just focus on the story the adaptation was trying to tell in their second watch, and picked up more of what was going on, seeing the construction of the season as a whole.

This is filtered through internet community self-selection, so ymmv, but it's a fairly regular trickle of people saying so in one place I frequent.

That Galadriel "lets Sauron go" is to me not surprising given the circumstances. She's just undergone a severe psychological shock, with the threat hanging over her of her unwitting complicity being revealed, showing Gil-galad's foresight to have been correct. She's playing catch-up, trying to get the elves tooled up before anyone else finds out (Galadriel possibly only understands the Three to be items of power, that Sauron wanted to use to order and rule: not that that is not what they ultimately will be useful for).

 

[Odola]

I disagree that this is a modern interpretation. the whole point of the Music of the Ainur is that it is the collaboration that makes the music - everyone plays their part. But in the end it all comes back to Iluvatar - and made more wonderful by the introduction of variations. So Melkor can try his discord but in the end it gets woven into the music and makes it more wonderful. So the individual choices of characters will always end up bending back into Iluvatar’s plan. And this is precisely because part of Iluvatar’s plan is to allow free will.

It is a modern idea that fate is irrelevant. Or that individual choices are more important than fate. This comes from a that culture is based on the idividuum. Pre-modern cultures are not, there the individuum serves the whole - without which it itself does not make sense. This is also why Tolkien has no problem with fixed social ranks and limited social mobility in his stories, which many modern readers have.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

It is a modern idea that fate is irrelevant. Or that individual choices are more imporant than fate. This comes from a that culture is based on the idividuum. Pre-modern cultures are not, there the individuum serves the whole - without which it itself does not make sense. This is also why Tolkien has no problem with fixed social ranks and limited social mobility in his stories, which many modern readers have.

I disagree this is a modern idea. It is a central idea in Jewish thinking going back thousands of years.

 

[Odola]

That Galadriel "lets Sauron go" is to me not surprising given the circumstances. She's just undergone a severe psychological shock, with the threat hanging over her of her unwitting complicity being revealed, showing Gil-galad's foresight to have been correct. She's playing catch-up, trying to get the elves tooled up before anyone else finds out (Galadriel possibly only understands the Three to be items of power, that Sauron wanted to use to order and rule: not that that is not what they ultimately will be useful for).

Then the change shown is too sudden. She was completely fixated on pursuiting Sauron for centuries, now suddenly she is concerned about her image and reputation among others while she has completely disregarded any such notions before? Has she discovered that her real motivation is power now? If so, then it has been shown too little in the making. It comes of like another plot contrivance.

And I have heard rumours that RoP was make for binge watching and the decision to release it on a weekly basis has been made later and by other people for marketing reasons and that it has not served the show well.

I disagree this is a modern idea. It is a central idea in Jewish thinking going back thousands of years.

O.k. But in context of European mythologies it is a relatively modern thing. Fate usually plays a crucial role in those.
And communality above individualism is not foreign to ancient Jewish thought either - to my limited knowledge of it.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Then the change shown is too sudden. She was completely fixated on pursuiting Sauron for centuries, now suddenly she is concerned about her image and reputation among others while she has completely disregarded any such notions before? Has she discovered that her real motivation is power now? If so, then it has been shown too little in the making. It comes of like another plot contrivance.

And I have heard rumours that RoP was make for binge watching and the decision to release it on a weekly basis has been made later and by other people for marketing reasons and that it has not served the show well.



O.k. But in context of European mythologies it is a relatively modern thing. Fate usually plays a crucial role in those.
And communality above individualism is not foreign to ancient Jewish thought either - to my limited knowledge of it.

Communal thinking and free will are not opposing concepts.

 

[Odola]

Communal thinking and free will are not opposing concepts.

They do not necessary have to be, but there is very often some "creative tension" between them.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

They do not necessary have to be, but there is very often some "creative tension" between them.

But we are talking about fate and free will. My point is that it is very Tolkienian to fold free will into providence and to show that our choices matter. This is not about individuality vs communality. Arda is a pre-Christian monotheistic world, not a pagan one.