Amazon series:reactions and thoughts (Spoiler alert!)

I hope so. My general criticisms about dialogue, characterazation ,interaction and time and geography gaps, naming issues, plotholes , stereotypes etc. Still Remain, even if i now may be in a far more generous mood.
I see it less as ‘plot holes’ and more as ‘yet to be filled in plot’. I think that the show runners have got an answer to all the things we can’t see yet. I completely agree that it is asking a lot of viewers to be patient with this very long story. Personally I like it, even if I have to wait (and my husband is wondering if he will even be alive to see season 5), but I recognise that it is a risky strategy that will put off some viewers. So I kinda hate the whole mithril/sick tree part of the story but feel that the way this works will be come clearer in time and so am letting it go for now. I thought the writing started off poorly but picked up as the season progressed. I thought the last three episodes were very well written (but the pacing was off if you watch it one episode at a time). Completely agree that they need to find a better way of showing time passing, including giving people horses and packs when they are journeying. That has been my biggest beef.
 
Well, im in episode 6 by now and i have to say... without expectations also most of the thrill or interest is gone. It is not generally slow paced, it is often quite badly paced so it becomes meandering to me. I also disagree that the show is very demanding on the viewer... things will not pay off some day in some future, to me it is clear the opposite is true and they indeed cut lots of things out to simplyfy and streamline an otherwisely more complex story. The rest is using clever rhetorics to convince oneself thare is more there than is visible to,the eye, but there isn't. The show didn't suggest or show much of it, the military campaign is terribly told, the sets of the battle make little sense, the time and logistics are rushed and unbelievable...
I had really forgotten how much this had bothered me the last time.during binging e3-6 i fell asleep three times...
Still curious how 7 and 8 will look to me next time.
 
Last edited:
I had really forgotten how much this had bothered me the last time.during binging e3-3 i fell asleep three times...
Still curious how 7 and 8 will look to me next time.

Falling asleep was big problem for me to during this series.
 
Well, im in episode 6 by now and i have to say... without expectations also most of the thrill or interest is gone. It is not alow paced, it is often quite badly paced so it becomes meandering to me. I also disagree that the show is very demanding on the viewer... things will not pay off aome day in some future, to me it is clear the oppisote is true and they indeed but lots of things out to simplyfy and streamline an otzerwisely more complex atory. The rest is using clever rhetorics to convince oneself thare is more there than is visible to,the eye, but there isn't. The show didn't suggest or show much of it, the military campaign is terribly told, the sets of the battle make little sense, the time and logistics are rushed and unbelievable...
I had really forgotten how much this had bothered me the last time.during binging e3-3 i fell asleep three times...
Still curious how 7 and 8 will look to me next time.
There will always be the original texts - and SilmFilm, of course!
 
There will always be the original texts - and SilmFilm, of course!

But how does that affect the strange pacing of the first series of RoP? It should stand on its own.

TLOTR book's pacing was also not easy for some readers - it started of slow - but still the plot carried it. In RoP the plot seems too disjointed at places to be able to do that.
 
Last edited:
Just to wade in, this show confirmed for me that I prefer other people's telling of Middle Earth stories to Tolkien's.
This was clearly a more "Disney-ized" version of Middle-Earth - more according to the motto: "as long it is pretty it does not have to make real sense".
 
Last edited:
This was clearly a more "Disney-ized" version of Middle-Earth - more according to the motto - as long it is pretty it does not have to make real sense.
The show will have failed for me if by the end of it it doesn’t make sense, but we are only 20% into the story. I agree I can’t at the moment see the connections between a number of things (the Lindon plot for example, Sauron’s back story for the period between leaving the Forodwaith fortress and the events of S1).
 
The show will have failed for me if by the end of it it doesn’t make sense, but we are only 20% into the story. I agree I can’t at the moment see the connections between a number of things (the Lindon plot for example, Sauron’s back story for the period between leaving the Forodwaith fortress and the events of S1).

There were also little sub-plots which didn't add up either - e.g. how gets Sauron out of jail and why? Why is Galadriel not sanctioned for leaving the royal palace she has been confined to? Where does have Halbrand those high value 3 coins from which he uses to pay for all the drinks for the whole street before he steals the badge? Why is Arondir armed when Adar sends him off to pass a simple message to the Southlanders? Why do Adar's orcs try to kill him if he is on mission from Adar? Etc. etc. Sense is clearly not the focus point of the show.
 
Last edited:
From the story they told, it COULD so far also have been one single movie, the rest stretched and add ons with no end...HOWEVER, i do think at last some of these not yet finished plots will lead somewhere, Meteorandir and Nori going to Rhun for example - if that does not lead us towards meeting a Prince Khamul and 4-5 other possible Nazgul or maybe a different dwarven tribe i'll be disappointed.

Also my guesses still are:Theo will become king of the dead and Valandil, Kemen and Earien are Nazgul candidates. I also am curious of the Mystics, if they will return or if Adar will returnnor if these all were just one shot characters.

However i am of course concerned season 2 will be EXACTLY like season 1: a meandering plot that will tell us too many stories at once, some of no importance at all, some which may lead towards future plots, a lot of repetition in dialogue or motifs, and a rushed end of what the show should have been about like the ringmaking. Will the making of the 9 and 7 be equally rushed? Or the sack of Eregion and Celebrimbors death?
 
Last edited:
From the story they told, it COULD so far also have been one single movie, the rest stretched and add ons with no end...HOWEVER, i do think at last some of these not yet finished plots will lead somewhere, Meteorandir and Nori going to Rhun for example - if that does not lead us towards meeting a Prince Khamul and 4-5 other possible Nazgul or maybe a different dwarven tribe i'll be disappointed.

Also my guesses still are:Theo will become king of the dead and Valandil, Kemen and Earien are Nazgul candidates. I also am curious of the Mystics, if they will return or if Adar will returnnor if these all were just one shot characters.

However i am of course concerned season 2 will be EXACTLY like season 1: a meandering plot that will tell us too many stories at once, some of no importance at all, some which may lead towards future plots, a lot of repetition in dialogue or motifs, and a rushed end of what the show should have been about like the ringmaking. Will the making of the 9 and 7 be equally rushed? Or the sack of Eregion and Celebrimbors death?
I agree a lot of the plots have not moved very far yet so it is hard to see the story. saw this season as a ‘getting to know the 2nd age situation’ season, including things like the politics in Numenor, the different cultures and world views of the different peoples, etc etc. I also agree that the show asks the viewer to suspend disbelief on various things - but as Corey said on Other Hands and Minds this week, readers/viewers are always being asked to accept unrealistic things in storytelling. I agree that the show is playing loosely with realism but I don’t mind much of that in epic fantasy, personally. I can‘t yet judge what parts of the story that so far appear to be insignificant or disconnected will actually turn out to be so, and which will end up being folded into larger themes.
 
I agree a lot of the plots have not moved very far yet so it is hard to see the story. saw this season as a ‘getting to know the 2nd age situation’ season, including things like the politics in Numenor, the different cultures and world views of the different peoples, etc etc. I also agree that the show asks the viewer to suspend disbelief on various things - but as Corey said on Other Hands and Minds this week, readers/viewers are always being asked to accept unrealistic things in storytelling. I agree that the show is playing loosely with realism but I don’t mind much of that in epic fantasy, personally. I can‘t yet judge what parts of the story that so far appear to be insignificant or disconnected will actually turn out to be so, and which will end up being folded into larger themes.

The problem also is - in Tolkien we are used to trust the narrator - what the narrator tells is what it believes to be true. Here we cannot trust the RoP story as shown - this couses a lot of frustration. Many viewers expected a Tolkien-like story in this regard.
And Tolkien has simulated realism quite well imho - I remember when I read it in my childhood my great delight with the issues mentioned like Lobelia stealing the silver spoons or the paper wastebasket gifted to Aunt Dora. This had nothing to do with the plot but made the world seem real. It was also not random and disjointed as it presented us with the culture and milieau Bilbo and Frodo came from. In RoP such details are either missing or serve no recognisable purpose. (The only exception being Adar planting the seeds before battle - still strange in the context as he was about to cloud the sun off so nothing would grow out of them anyway - insomuch an empty gesture - still it did tell is something about Adar's background).
 
Last edited:
I often disagree with corey, he knows a lot about not only Tolkien but also some of Tolkiens sources and backgrounds, including even catholic philosophy, but he also is really good at looking away or ignoring some things while emphasizing other things and replacing analsis of what IS by speculation and rationalisation of what SHOULD be.That is not critique but a rhetoric trick. He was very adamant against shadows of Mordor and the games lorechanges and cosmology problems, now with rop he is very generous and even apologetic. I do not have to understand his sudden change of mind.

I accept him being of a different opinion, angle,,perspective and reception than me, but that does not mean i agree or understand it.But it also does include he and me can not also not only not argue, but also not explicitly quarrel on these things.
 
I often disagree with corey, he knows a lot about not only Tolkien but also some of Tolkiens sources and backgrounds, including even catholic philosophy, but he also is really good at looking away or ignoring some things while emphasizing other things and replacing analsis of what IS by speculation and rationalisation of what SHOULD be.That is not critique but a rhetoric trick. He was very adamant against shadows of Mordor and the games lorechanges and cosmology problems, now with rop he is very generous and even apologetic. I do not have to understand his sudden change of mind

I accept him being of a different opinion, angle,,perspective and reception than me, but that does not mean i agree or understand it.But it also does include he and me can not also not only not argue, but also not explicitly quarrel on these things.

arguing , but not quarreling. I like this distinction. The former can descend into the latter when one is taking about opinions though. I hope we all feel that we are sharing our varied and valid opinions about the show.
 
Narration is an important tool in story-telling, and Tolkien was a master storyteller. I would even venture to say that his storytelling skills exceeded his skill at visual art, poetry, and novel-writing. And he obviously was quite decently skilled at those! But his storytelling is of the highest caliber.

Which is to say - Tolkien did not rely on 3rd person omniscient narration, nor did he choose a point of view character and stick to their perspective in the narration. Rather, he chose to narrate each scene from a particular character's point of view, and it was often the point of view of the least knowledgable person present in the scene. Pippin, not Gandalf, gives us our introduction to Minas Tirith. Gimli, who has never been to Rohan before, gives us the perspective of the Three Hunters. He cannot see what Legolas can see, so we the readers only see the riders when Gimli can see them, and rely on Legolas' report for what can be seen further away. We see Mordor through Sam's eyes, not Frodo's. Etc. This allows for the reader to discover things at the same time as the character, to be confused by things or surprised by things even if someone else in the scene knows more about what is going on. Sometimes, this is to preserve a 'surprise' - such as Aragorn's wedding to Arwen. But other times it is simply to immerse the reader fully in the story. Think about how Merry and Pippin's ordeal with the orcs is told - when the reader finds out what happened, versus when Gimli finds out what happened. It's rather complicated, and the choices that are made are at the aid of good storytelling.

So, as to the question of whether or not the narration "lies" - no, Tolkien does not usually pull a 'gotcha', where the narrator has claimed one thing, and then something different turns out to be true. But he does allow his characters to believe things that may not be the case, based on their limited knowledge/perspective. The entire gambit of Aragorn taking a small army to the Black Gate as a 'distraction' was based on the idea that, though he had a palantir, Sauron could not be certain that Aragorn didn't have the One Ring. He would see this action as a challenge from a new Ringlord.

There are places where characters supply misinformation. It can be rare, but it happens. Sometimes, it is merely hyperbole. Who is the oldest being alive during the Lord of the Rings? Is it Tom Bombadil? Treebeard? Someone else? A lot of characters are referred to with superlatives, and obviously most of them should only be getting a comparative. Every hot dog stand in Chicago sells the best Chicago-style hot dog (technically true - all supplied by the same place!) Other times, a character mispeaks. In "Shadow of the Past," Gandalf claims that it was clear from the start that Bilbo's magic ring was one of the great rings. That...cannot be the case, because the great rings all had a gem, and Bilbo's did not. It's either the One Ring or a lesser ring (with the chances being astronomically higher that it's the latter). Presumably Gandalf eventually came to the conclusion that it may be a great ring (after Bilbo's life had been preserved and he found it so hard to give it away), but he certainly didn't know that from the start and simply leave it in Bilbo's care for 60 years! He did not know for certain that Bilbo's Ring was the One Ring until he saw the writing on it in Frodo's fire 17 years after Bilbo left it behind. And thus, while he may have had suspicions, saying that it was clear all along is quite a bit of hindsight creeping into his telling of the story.

There is one clear example of misinformation given during the Council of Elrond. Gandalf repeats Gwaihir's report that the Men of Rohan pay a tribute of horses to Mordor. Boromir speaks up to dispute this claim, and is told that things may have changed since he came north. Aragorn, apparently, does not believe the claim either (as he states when they reach Rohan), but did not speak up during the council to gainsay Gandalf. When they arrive in Rohan, they find that Mordor has been sending orc raiding parties to steal horses from Rohan (particularly black horses), so horses are crossing the river, but Rohan is not paying tribute to Mordor. This distinction is important, and in fact may be one reason that Boromir did not wholly accept the information delivered in the Council of Elrond. When it came to something he knew about (how the people of Rohan value their horses), the Council was mistaken or willing to accept a dubious account. So when it came to something he knew little about (Rings of Power), he had some doubt that these elf lords and wizards knew what they were talking about. In other words...this piece of misinformation, delivered innocently enough at the time, serves a storytelling purpose and is not simply an incidental mistake.

Now, including misinformation or an unreliable narrator is a tricky thing to handle in storytelling. It's not always handled well. I haven't rewatched Rings of Power to see how they handled that yet. I am currently rewatching the Haunting of Hill House, and noticing lots of details in the storytelling that weren't apparent the first time through. Each character has a different perspective, and we start with the oldest brother, who knew the least about what really happened their last night in the house. There are some reveals that are not strictly believable based on later information, so that can feel like a 'cheat' - for instance, Luke's treehouse is shown in an early episode, and in the rewatch, I saw that it had a red door. So that detail helps to point to the truth, but...it's a treehouse. It's outside. The light is coming in through the slats in the walls. The reveal of its location feels fake, because we saw it...but we saw what the kids saw. That is a show that asks you to question what is real.
 
Great summary Mithluin! I think the RoP Season 1 was all about questioning what is good and what is evil, and ultimately showing that it is a character’s choices that matter. This is seen most strongly in Galadriel and Nori as perspective characters. Theo was another character who carried that theme through. Galadriel and Nori’s judgements on Halbrand and The Stranger respectively are coloured by their own epistemic domains, and Galadriel’s pride vs Nori’s humility. So It’s not about what is ‘real’ as such, but rather what each perspective character comes to know. Now that we the viewers and Galadriel and Nori are on the same page, I expect the story to rely less on viewer misdirection. The Dwarf plot line is going to be interesting here, because of the Dwarven secrecy as a cultural trait.
 
Back
Top