Swords

The shinai has a string that runs along its length. That is meant to simulate the upper (non cutting edge) of the sword, so you must always keep the sword pointed in the correct direction to make cuts. For kata, you use a bokken, which does have the correct shape (and is heavier). For iaido (drawing and cutting), you need to use a more accurate version of a katana.

In kendo, only 4 cuts count: the top of the head, the wrist, and the side are all cuts. The throat is a thrust. You can see all of these demonstrated in the 1st kihon waza, but the receiver steps back to avoid being stabbed in the throat.


Here is the 'stabbing in the throat' waza with a shinai and armor on:

 
MithLuin said:
Okay, guys :p And Brian, you had best not give up disagreeing with me, because we need to have challenges to ideas in this project. You're quite safe - you live on the other side of the world from me!
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I feel strangely lulled into a sense of security that is most likely in no way false or insubstantial.
 
Wouldn't it be interesting to have Feanor move forward in the proper stance for a sword thrust to the throat? This would imply that not only is he improving on the swords, but is actually creating the art of swordplay. The average viewer probably wouldn't notice, but for those who are in the know, what a great Easter egg and a way to further emphasize that Feanor was one brilliant Elf.
 
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Well, there are any number of techniques for a thrust to the throat, depending on the design of the sword.

On a side note about that moment, I don't know how much Tolkien knew about medieval sword-making technique (it may not have been something that he was interested in), but he describes Fëanor's sword as a "bright blade". This may just be a throwaway line, but if not it suggests one of two things. Either the techniques pre-date pattern-welding and "Damascus" steel, or they are based on more modern, cosistent steel production.

See, early and medieval sword-makers in Europe couldn't melt down iron or steel enough to purify them (Near eastern smiths used the mysterious Damascus Steel process, which we still don't quite understand today, but may have created carbon nanotubes). So they would make thin rods of iron and cover them with carbon. When these were welded together and forged into a blade, you would get a pattern in the steel. Damascus steel would do the same. Katanas forged in ancient times got their pattern from the quenching methods which made parts of the blade to have different properties.

Modern metallurgy allows mixing carbon in with iron at the exact ratio you want, resulting in uniform, or brighter steel.

Ancient steel blades, on the other hand, would be made from iron that already had impurities in it, making the blade color more uniform.

Of course, you can polish out the cool blade patterns if you want, but it is a lot of work for something that will come back with any amount of use. Of course, bronze is quite bright, but Tolkien specifically mentions tempered steel, so I think we are looking more at a Greek or Roman level of technology.
 
Hmmm, I'll have to think about that, Ray.

Kendo is decidedly Japanese. Lots of etiquette (with bowing and such), but also a very different style of footwork from European styles. For instance, in kendo, all of the weight is on the ball of the back foot, and you launch yourself forward from the hips to generate power. But also, your feet are kept parallel to each other; the back foot does not 'turn out.' And the stance is very upright. I...don't know German longsword, so I can't comment on how you should do this move in that style, but....it probably would look different.

Intro to HEMA:

More significantly, movie swordplay is 'theatrical' - it is a lot more swinging swords around and trying to give a visually interesting and prolonged fight. In a real fight, your goal is to eliminate your opponent as quickly as possible so they don't have a chance to hit you. There's focus on economy of movement - what is the least you can move the blade and achieve the cut, thrust, or block that you want. Granted, it can still be quite beautiful and striking...but is not a choice typically made for the stage or for film.

So, do we want Fëanor to have 'good form' as a swordsman? Probably. This strongly implies that he has been practicing, and like everything else he puts his mind to, he gets it 'right' quite naturally. I would even like to show him teaching his sons how to fight with swords during the exile in Formenos, so that would fit well if he's trained himself prior to drawing the sword on Fingolfin. So...overall, I like the idea from a storytelling viewpoint, and am not sure how to execute it visually. What would it look like?
 
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Like you say, too many people think of the 'theatrical' swordfight and wouldn't understand the nuance of real swordplay. Then again, if Feanor's goal was to intimidate and humiliate Fingolfin, he might actually use a more flamboyant and theatrical style to 'play' to the audience.
 
The more I think about it, a sudden thrust to the throat that stops just short of actually striking him would be SUPER intimidating and would probably look dramatic. The suddenness of it would fit the scene....I think we could convey the drama we want, freeze everything in tableau (the onlookers staring in shock) and then Fëanor delivers his line.

Or even....Fingolfin could take a sudden step back, and the audience could be left wondering if Fëanor would have really stabbed him in the throat.
 
While there will certainly be places where we use more theatrical swordplay for effect, I think I prefer the idea of Feanor's movement against Fingolfin being sudden, intense, intense. No nonsense, just deadly seriousness.
 
Farther down the line, what do you guys think of a weapon that's like a sabre, similar to the 1796 British Heavy Cavalry Sword, as seen in the Sharpe series starring Sean Bean?

The hilt of a 1796 Heavy Cavalry Sword
Pattern_1796_Heavy_Cavalry_Officer_Sword.jpg


Richard Sharpe (Sean Bean) with a 1796 Heavy Cavalry Sword
sharpelook.jpg
 
Hmmm...hobbit culture is quite late. Isn't it meant to be a Warwickshire village in the time of Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee? So...1897. Not sure if that's relevant to the question but 1796 isn't too late for *everything* in this project. Definitely too late for anything in Valinor, though.

I'll follow up my 'Fëanor draws a sword on Fingolfin' artwork with another Jenny Dolfen illustration. This one is 'The Vanyar Leave For War' and takes place at the end of the First Age, when Ingwion (Son of Ingwë) goes to Middle Earth for the War of Wrath:

wp_vanyar_col.jpg
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Farther down the line, what do you guys think of a weapon that's like a sabre, similar to the 1796 British Heavy Cavalry Sword, as seen in the Sharpe series starring Sean Bean?

The hilt of a 1796 Heavy Cavalry Sword
Pattern_1796_Heavy_Cavalry_Officer_Sword.jpg


Richard Sharpe (Sean Bean) with a 1796 Heavy Cavalry Sword
sharpelook.jpg
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I'm not sure when down the line you are thinking of. Cavalry sabers are designed to be used from horseback against unarmored targets, a condition that arose after the advent of gunpowder. Since our characters are still in armor at the beginning of the fourth age, I don't know when the saber would become relevant unless we intend to go into the Dagor Dagorath.
 
About having Fëanor actually enact a thrust and stopping short of Fingolfin's throat, I don't mean to be contrary, but that might not be all that dramatic on screen.

A thrust is a lightning quick motion, which might be over before the audience realizes it is supposed to be dramatic.
 
Shoot. I just thought it would be a good idea to have a different type of sword, maybe used by some bad guy, like the Easterlings or even the orcs? It's described by Bernard Cornwell in his Sharpe series as "crude, mass-produced", "a brutal blade that will cut through lighter swords and finer techniques", "the mere weight of it can crush a man's skull."
 
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Well, there are plenty of different types of swords that we can use without moving past the proliferation of firearms.

If you want a short, curved blade that the Easterlings might use, you could always have a scimitar or even a Chinese Dao.

hanwei-scimitar-swords.png


Tai-Chi-Wushu-Kung-Fu-Tai-Chi-Espadas-Dao.jpg


If we wanted to shy away from the Easterlings being too ... Eastern, we could always use something like a falchion.


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Nicholas Palazzo said:
About having Fëanor actually enact a thrust and stopping short of Fingolfin's throat, I don't mean to be contrary, but that might not be all that dramatic on screen.

A thrust is a lightning quick motion, which might be over before the audience realizes it is supposed to be dramatic.
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I agree that it is very fast, but I am planning for him to leave the blade at Fingolfin's throat when he finishes. So, it's a sudden, 'whoa, what just happened!' when he strikes. The feeling of having a blade pointed at your throat (especially very near to you) is quite intimidating....but I don't know how to convey that to the viewer - view Fingolfin from Fëanor's point of view, down the blade?
 
MithLuin said:
I agree that it is very fast, but I am planning for him to leave the blade at Fingolfin's throat when he finishes. So, it's a sudden, 'whoa, what just happened!' when he strikes. The feeling of having a blade pointed at your throat (especially very near to you) is quite intimidating....but I don't know how to convey that to the viewer - view Fingolfin from Fëanor's point of view, down the blade?
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Sounds like a good idea, looking through Feanor's eyes before he levels his sword at Fingolfin.
 
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