Session 2.14 for S2E10

Phillip Menzies

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Staff member
Questions for the next session to air on Friday the 18th of November 2016 which covers Feanor drawing his sword on Fingolfin and being banished by the Valar are:

  1. How do we present the friction between Feanor and Fingolfin and how do we show it growing to the point where it boils over?
  2. How involved should the 3rd generation of elves be or are they innocent bystanders ? (Note: all this generation have grown up)
  3. Do we depict the Valar as being simply absent and what role if any do they play in the conflict?
  4. Do we have a hearing or council among the Valar which bring Melkor's involvement to light or do we show it from a purely elvish point of view?
  5. What exactly should the terms of his banishment be? What is the rationale of the Valar and how does Feanor interpret it?
 
How involved should the 3rd generation of elves be or are they innocent bystanders ? (Note: all this generation have grown up)
I suggest we do as much as we can to involve as many as possible. Let's not make the Fëanor-Fingolfin conflict take place in a vacuum. The Noldor community should be boiling with unrest and various degrees of conflict. Some may be resolved quickly, while others have effects reaching far into the future. We might see the most open conflicts between the families but some tension should be seen within the families, for example between the sons of Fëanor. This becomes such a problem that Finwë summons the members of his house to a meeting. In the PubSil it says that he summons "all his lords" - and I believe that we should use this, the problem should definitely include many more than the two brothers - otherwise Finwë could have dealt with it in a different way. I mean, if it was just Fëanor and Fingolfin and no one else who were causing trouble, it would be much easier to handle and he needn't be so formal about it.
 
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Yay, new thread!

The friction between Fëanor and Fingolfin is tricky. Like Haakon, I think it should pull in all of the Noldor - so we are going to hear voices saying that Finwë should never have remarried and this wouldn't have happened, or people defending Fingolfin as the good noble wonderful elf that he is. Obviously, if Fingolfin has been listening to Melkor, he plays into this as well. But what do they themselves think?

Fëanor has been moving towards becoming secretive and guarded. Now is where we see him displaying paranoia. Something tips him over into that - what? What could possibly happen to make him go from guarding his thoughts, possessions and family to being paranoid and suspicious of attack? Does someone break into his house and try to steal the silmarils? Does his habit of spending time outside of Tirion (is that something he is doing, by the by - living outside the city?) cause him to miss some event that he didn't even know about because no one thought to tell his family about it? Does someone try to beat him at craftsmanship- maybe publicly musing that he's hit his peak with the silmarils and it's all downhill from there? I don't have a good feel on what a good event would be to incite epic levels of paranoia in someone who has been skilled at everything he put his hand to since he was a small child, and whose rivals are actually his younger half-brothers who show him deference, mostly.

Fingolfin's uneasiness has to come from multiple fronts as well. It can't just be him-vs-Fëanor. He has to realize that some of his people will never accept him as a 'true' son of Finwë, cause of that whole remarriage-to-Indis thing. He's half-Vanyar, so not even a real Noldo. His father clearly dotes on his firstborn, so he might feel he has something to prove there as well. No one associates this kind of vulnerability with Fingolfin. Clearly, he gets over it after being abandoned in Araman and striking out on his own. But can he even go through this now? Even if it is...temporary...will there be insecurities for Melkor to work on? And that's where the Fingolfin-listens-to-Melkor storyline comes in handy. We can easily give Melkor the role of offering 'reassurances' that things aren't really that bad and of course people don't really think {repeats baseless gossip}. So while he might sound like he's trying to help, he's just reinforcing and throwing it in Fingolfin's face. But it's still really hard to see Fingolfin (of all people) getting worried about this.

Finarfin as go-between peacemaker stuck in the middle (but obviously siding with Fingolfin) seems necessary.



As for the 3rd generation - oh, they're involved alright. Fëanor and Fingolfin are going full-out Hatfields and McCoys, and here's their eldest sons being best-friends-for-life on the sidelines. Whether Maedhros and Fingon try to talk some sense into their fathers, or whether they get yelled at by their fathers for fraternizing with the enemy, or even just privately discuss the dilemma amongst themselves....it has to come up. Too perfect not to use that situation.

The children of Finarfin (Finrod, Angrod, Aegnor and Galadriel) have to spend some time in this episode with their Teleri cousins in Alqualondë (because up until now, we haven't really explained that Finarfin married Olwë's daughter Earwen). They are removing themselves from the feud by getting out of Tirion and just not being part of it, but it can still come up. Angrod and Aegnor think that Fëanor is being ridiculous, and of course side with Fingolfin (and his sons - they're friends with Fingon and Turgon). We wanted Galadriel to be close friends with one of the Teleri (possibly one of the children of Olwë's sons - so her cousin), and for the two of them to discuss the possibility of going to Middle Earth and exploring new lands. Perhaps this cousin is a great mariner who dreams of sailing beyond sight of shore, over the horizon.... Anyway - they discuss these dreams so we care when said cousin dies in the Kinslaying, and also so we'll understand Galadriel's motivation in joining the rebellion whilst being firmly anti-Fëanor. This elf maybe owes something to the character of Teleporno in one of the versions of Galadriel's history, but of course we're making him a cousin, not a romantic interest (and he'll need a new name).

[Some of the Galadriel questions were discussed in this thread:
http://forums.signumuniversity.org/index.php?threads/galadriel.350/ ]

Does Aredhel maintain her friendship with Curufin and Celegorm? Or does the feud put an end to her childhood friendship with them? Either way is fine, but if she's explicitly told not to spend time with them, I would want to see some defiance from her on that one.
 
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Does Aredhel maintain her friendship with Curufin and Celegorm? Or does the feud put an end to her childhood friendship with them? Either way is fine, but if she's explicitly told not to spend time with them, I would want to see some defiance from her on that one.
I think she could stay friends with them, but we could make their friendship tainted with aggression against others. Talking about their relatives in negative terms could make things sour for them.
I think Aredhel and Galadriel could have a real conflict though.
 
Yes. So if there's a conflict between them it has to be resolved quickly. Then they go 'Look at us! Why are we fighting? It's all because of our fathers!' Maybe in the end they have to choose sides out of loyalty to their fathers, even if they have resolved their own issues.
 
One option for Feanor becoming paranoid would be if someone could rival him in crafting, at least he thinks so. Maybe in a way he thinks somebody is steeling his ideas. Melkor could even enable that secretely to all, to Feanor, to this other craftsman and also to the viewer of course.

If this craftsman is Fingolfin, what does he create? Is he a craftsman at all? Does he forge his sword Ringil himself? Did Feanor design it?

"But Fingolfin gleamed beneath it as a star; for his mail was overlaid with silver, and his blue shield was set with crystals; and he drew his sword Ringil, that glittered like ice."
 
Ringil is a great idea!

Part of me is torn between Tolkien's clearly stated idea (that everything made in Valinor in the old days is more awesome than things made in Middle Earth in the later days), and the more....reasonable...idea that elves would get better at making swords after working on them for 500 years and using them in wars.

So, is Ringil made in Valinor? And does Fingolfin forge it in this episode, but then *not draw it* when Fëanor draws his? Or does he learn that important lesson that weapons don't do you much good when you're not carrying them. After all, what reason would he have to carry a weapon in his father's house/court?

I do think that whatever makes Fëanor uneasy needs to come from Fingolfin personally and directly, though other factors can influence his paranoia.
 
Yes, I agree he wouldn't carry it with him, because he first would look at it as an item on display and not as a killing instrument.

So he may girdle it later or he hasn't forged it yet. In both ways it would envy Feanor as Ringil is such an amazing sword. I don't know any sword of Feanor by name.

I thus think Ringil was forged in Valinor. What if Fingolfin asks Aule himself to help him forge the sword? I think Melkor wouldn't help Fingolfin to create a weapon that can get him his foot cut off!
 
None of the swords carried by Fëanor or any of his sons is ever given a name.

The exception is Angrist (Iron-cleaver), the knife of Curufin, but that was forged by the dwarf Telchar of Nogrod and kinda makes the point - we also only learn the name after Beren takes it (and thus it is no longer Curufin's knife). Personally, I think that Curufin carries a knife that can cut iron around with him as a direct result of Maedhros' ordeal on Thangorodrim, but that's just me. [Maedhros: "New rule - we'll all have blades that can cut through iron as easily as people, so there will be no more unfortunate maiming during rescue attempts." Curufin: "Got it." Caranthir: "Why is it our fault Fingon brought a harp on his rescue attempt instead of a good blade?"]


Or what if Melkor *did* help with improving Ringil, hoping to escalate the fight with Fëanor and hurt him? And then Fingolfin uses the blade to give Melkor a permanent limp 455 years later? Ringil is arguably one of the best weapons of the First Age, though, so I would be rather hesitant to let Melkor have any role in its forging. It would be like finding out the history of Aiglos was that Gil-galad got it as a gift from Celebrimbor...and Annatar helped forge it. But then....the name Ringil is associated with the Lamps, and we were saying that Melkor had a very active role in creating the Lamps, so.....maybe?
 
I do enjoy the irony of this, but I feel like it loses some of its punch because Fingolfin fails. This can be rescued, however, if he picks up the sword and destroys it in some awful way.
 
I'm not sure that the forging of a sword would cause paranoia in Fëanor, to be honest. I think his paranoia comes from the rumours of Fingolfin usurping. I asked about this during the last session and Dr Olsen said that Melkor didn't lie about this - this is in fact a prediction. What if we take that as far as we can? I suggest that we have a scene with Fingolfin, Nerdanel and Melkor. They talk about the Ainulindalë and how the Music plays out in the events of Arda and that Melkor, who remembers much of the Music knows a lot of what is going to happen. Nerdanel could ask something about the future and Melkor could be reluctant. He could say that knowledge of the future often is a burden. But Nerdanel and Fingolfin both insist, and finally Melkor turns to Fingolfin and says 'You have the mark of a High King'. This will of course cause an inner conflict in Fingolfin and perhaps make him and Nerdanel turn away from Melkor, but the damage is already done and these words will work their way through the Noldor lords. Fingolfin will probably just confide this with his closest family, and Nerdanel will perhaps just talk to Fëanor, but it ill be hard to keep it a secret. This would make Fëanor's paranoia totally believeable.
 
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True it can't be the sword itself. Ringil can only be a symbol of Fingolfins status among the Noldor. But if its appearance is timed right it can add to Fëanor's fears and mistrust.
 
True it can't be the sword itself. Ringil can only be a symbol of Fingolfins status among the Noldor. But if its appearance is timed right it can add to Fëanor's fears and mistrust.
Of course it can be! I didn't mean to be totally negative about it.

If we choose to go with the scenario I sketched above, this could lead to Fëanor and Nerdanel breaking up (it doesn't have to happen immidiately though). If she tells him about Melkor's prediction, Fëanor could believe that she would support Fingolfin as High King. By taking the step to believe that his own wife is almost plotting against him, he will be in a state of mind in which basically everyone is wishing for his downfall.
 
What I meant is the sword can not give explanations like your sketch. I really like the idea of Melkors slip about Fingolfins future. This gives us explanations for many turns among the protagonists. Then the only two Noldor that want to help clear things up are Fingon and Maedhros. They both could be among the few Fingolfin and Nerdanel told about Melkors words directly. But eventually even Maedhros must turn away and swear the oath his father proclaims.
 
In the session questions I must have missed a direct reference to Turgon, as I do remember Professor Olsen mentioning him specifically. I have a scene in my head to introduce Turgon but it needs to be from Melkor's point of view. Melkor would be sharing his expertise with a Noldo and then he would get an expression on his face as if "someone had walked over his grave". It is only then that he would turn and see Turgon who is paying absolutely no attention to Melkor at all and have to ask the Noldo who it was. He quickly shrugs it off and continues but still looking somewhat disturbed. What's more this may be the only hint in these episodes that Melkor is not what he appears to be.
 
In the session questions I must have missed a direct reference to Turgon, as I do remember Professor Olsen mentioning him specifically. I have a scene in my head to introduce Turgon but it needs to be from Melkor's point of view. Melkor would be sharing his expertise with a Noldo and then he would get an expression on his face as if "someone had walked over his grave". It is only then that he would turn and see Turgon who is paying absolutely no attention to Melkor at all and have to ask the Noldo who it was. He quickly shrugs it off and continues but still looking somewhat disturbed. What's more this may be the only hint in these episodes that Melkor is not what he appears to be.
I remeber, Phillip. I think that was to be in the previous episode, while Turgon was still very young.

What I meant is the sword can not give explanations like your sketch. I really like the idea of Melkors slip about Fingolfins future. This gives us explanations for many turns among the protagonists. Then the only two Noldor that want to help clear things up are Fingon and Maedhros. They both could be among the few Fingolfin and Nerdanel told about Melkors words directly. But eventually even Maedhros must turn away and swear the oath his father proclaims.

Among the sons of Fëanor, all internal conflicts must be resolved and they must be loyal to their father by the end of this episode. The children of Fingolfin stick by their father as well. We could have some tension between Aredhel and her briohers, perhaps. They could question her loyalty or at least wonder why she hangs around with those cousins so much when both of them (Celegorm and Curufin) speak so ill of her father.

We begin the episode with unrest among the Noldor, but no real conflict, right? It's more like they're restless and bored and want to explore more of the world. And there's the issue with the Silmarils - people are asking Fëanor about them; this causes tension between him and people in general, and between him and Nerdanel in particular. Melkor talks to some of the Noldor, perhaps not Nerdanel this time or she will look like the Mouth of Melkor, but someone else, why not Rúmil and Galadriel? They are talking about Middle-earth and Melkor asks if they saw any of the Second Children of Ilúvatar over there. Rúmil doesn't understand what he's talking about. He explains about the vision he was shown before Arda was made. This makes the unrest even greater, of course, and the Noldor are beginning to question the Valar's reasons for bringing them to Valinor. this could be the time when Melkor teaches them to make weapons? And Fëanor talks about rebellion? Later, when Nerdanel is working with Melkor, Fingolfin approaches and starts to ask about Melkor's knowledge about the world. This is when he tells them about the Music and Nerdanel and Fingolfin begs him to tell them something about the future (as I sketched above). Nerdanel tells Fëanor about this (reluctantly or not) and his paranoia escalates. The word gets out and a lot of people are upset. Just a few actually know what has been said and who were involved in the conversation. Finally Finwë gets to hear about it and he summons his lords to clear things up. Fingolfin wants to make things clear and rushes ahead. He doesn't have time to talk things through with Finwë and Fëanor arrives seeing his brother in private conversation with his Father. The sword scene.
 
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Ren, Maedhros is going to be the one who makes Fingolfin High King of the Noldor in Middle Earth. By acknowledging his uncle's claim (as heir of Finwë, rather than his own claim as heir of Fëanor), he answers that question definitively and makes his own house the Dispossessed. So, there is certainly a lot we can do with that here in this episode to begin setting that up.


Things that happen in Episode 9 (The Silmarils):
  • Melkor's unease when in Turgon's presence
  • The Noldor begin to make weapons (including swords)
  • Talk of returning to Middle Earth and the restlessness of the Noldor
  • Introduction of the 3rd generation - some as children and some as adults
  • Fëanor makes the silmarils.
  • Fëanor looks in the palantiri and observes Middle Earth

Things that happen in Episode 10 (Kinstrife):

  • Melkor reveals the coming of the Secondborn (mortals) in Middle Earth
  • Feud of Fingolfin and Fëanor reaches a head - Fëanor draws a sword on Fingolfin
  • Fëanor is banished to Formenos
  • All of Finwë's grandchildren are adults, and some of them are married (probably Turgon is one of the more important ones to show, as Idril will be a child at the end of this season during the Darkening of Valinor).
  • Finarfin's link to the Teleri is made clear/established.


Showing Melkor involved in the making of weapons in Ep 9 (even if just by inspiring such things) and showing him explicitly 'accidentally' revealing Men to the Elves in Ep 10 are the two things we know he has to do. Everything else is more-or-less up for debate.
 
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Ren, Maedhros is going to be the one who makes Fingolfin High King of the Noldor in Middle Earth.
Excellent! Thanks for the sum up.

Now that we have touched on questions 1. and 2., how about question 3., the Valar?

During episodes 9 and 10 I think the Valar are only observing the scene until they ban Feanor. However, I could see Aule actually helping the Noldor with their weapon forging. That would mean that even he got instrumentalised in Melkors scheme. But other than that the Valar should not interfere, as it is Noldor business.
 
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We can save some of the Valar reaction for the next episode, keeping this one mostly elf-centric. But of course the Valar are the ones who banish Fëanor.

I think we might save some of the uncovering of Melkor's 'lies' and the scene where Fëanor shuts the door of Formenos in Melkor's face for the beginning of the next episode, but it really depends where they want to cut this one off.
 
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