Could you please say more why we should not have Elves experience mental illness? I especially find it hard to imagine that Meadhros experienced no trauma at all from being horribly tortured for years and years. I can't imagine Elves are immune to feeling trauma or being emotionally wounded, and the text in several places appears to depict lasting trauma.
On Amras: Some Thoughts and Questions.
- Thread starter Trevor Trumbull
- Start date
I understand and I basically agree, they should be affected by what they go through, but there’s a great difference between a trauma and the specific symptoms of PTSD. I don’t want to see Maedhros suffering from horrible nightmares or flashbacks or start to avoid doing things because he’s afraid to think about Thangorodrim or Morgoth.
I guess having no clinical training I don't have an idea of the specific differences between "lasting trauma/grief" and "diagnosable XYZ", or why a mental illness caused by bad experiences would be impossible for Elves, or else why it would be such a bad idea to depict.
I do think Elves would be susceptible to nightmares and flashbacks, possibly moreso than Humans whose memories are so much less vivid.
My suggestion is that Amros feels miserable and down, and grieves strongly for a span of some years; the more intense grieving would go away early in Season 4. The less intense grief... I don't know how long it would take Elves to get over it. Death doesn't mean the same thing to them that it means to us, but they also remember longer and hold onto emotions longer than we do. For Amrod's death, the horror is that he was killed by his own family, and the grief is the fear that he has gone to the Void and the bereavement is permanent, even beyond the End of the World.
The suggestion that Amros gets unhinged at the end of his life, after fighting against the torment of the unfulfilled Oath, isn't meant to be any real mental illness. I think it can be used to highlight the horror of the Oath and the condition of being bound to it, just as his earlier behavior can serve as a reminder of the Doom of the Noldor that came from swearing it.
I do think Elves would be susceptible to nightmares and flashbacks, possibly moreso than Humans whose memories are so much less vivid.
My suggestion is that Amros feels miserable and down, and grieves strongly for a span of some years; the more intense grieving would go away early in Season 4. The less intense grief... I don't know how long it would take Elves to get over it. Death doesn't mean the same thing to them that it means to us, but they also remember longer and hold onto emotions longer than we do. For Amrod's death, the horror is that he was killed by his own family, and the grief is the fear that he has gone to the Void and the bereavement is permanent, even beyond the End of the World.
The suggestion that Amros gets unhinged at the end of his life, after fighting against the torment of the unfulfilled Oath, isn't meant to be any real mental illness. I think it can be used to highlight the horror of the Oath and the condition of being bound to it, just as his earlier behavior can serve as a reminder of the Doom of the Noldor that came from swearing it.
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When we were discussing how to portray Míriel after the birth of Fëanor, the decision was made *not* to equate her condition with post-partum depression. Sure, she has many familiar symptoms there, but we're specifically giving her ailment a spiritual cause - we are emphasizing what *she did* during the process of baby-making that was out of the ordinary, to explain why, in a land of no disease and illness, she fades and dies. Characters will explicitly comment about how she poured her spirit into her child and that harmed her.
So, I think we should maintain that theme moving forward. Elves are not human, and elves do not get diseases...but they can have a 'weariness of spirit' that has familiar notes to it. So...yes...their sense of 'waking memories' can be used as flashbacks to remind the audience of past events - not just traumatic, but also any meaningful thing. The idea that the elf is reliving the event rather than simply remembering it is probably a nuance that will be lost on most of the audience, but we can attempt to portray it that way.
I honestly think that a lot of people misunderstand what PTSD* is and how it works. And so, unless the writer/actor/director is careful, it would come across as someone being afraid and avoiding something because it's been bad before. When, really...it's an unreasonable/exaggerated/inappropriate out-of-place reaction that the person is often quite aware is not appropriate to the current circumstance, but has to deal with the involuntary bodily fear response (or avoid circumstances that would trigger it). But the trigger is not even necessarily the bad thing that happened, but an incidental reminder - smell, sound, environment, etc. Soldiers react to the sound of fireworks, rape survivors react to the smell of their attacker's cologne or the song that was playing that night, etc. We probably won't want those sorts of triggers - we'd want to revisit the trauma - so have Amras remember Amrod's screams as someone else is in danger of dying - thematic reminders rather than incidental ones. So...not PTSD, elvish waking memory.
*Even people who don't have full-blown PTSD can experience post-traumatic stress events after having suffered a traumatic event. As an example, my sister has a birth story that's...well, let's just say it wasn't much fun, but both she and the baby were fine. She's talked and written about it - but I would warn any expectant mothers before reading her account simply because that might be stress they don't need. And yet, for her, the triggering memory is nothing to do with childbirth (she's gone through that again since with no issue), but with the wind in the palm trees - her heart started racing after she heard that once several years later, and it took her a moment to figure out why she was panicking for no reason. Her brain knew that she wasn't giving birth in a hurricane and that her kids were fine, but...the adrenaline racing through her said otherwise.
So, I think we should maintain that theme moving forward. Elves are not human, and elves do not get diseases...but they can have a 'weariness of spirit' that has familiar notes to it. So...yes...their sense of 'waking memories' can be used as flashbacks to remind the audience of past events - not just traumatic, but also any meaningful thing. The idea that the elf is reliving the event rather than simply remembering it is probably a nuance that will be lost on most of the audience, but we can attempt to portray it that way.
I honestly think that a lot of people misunderstand what PTSD* is and how it works. And so, unless the writer/actor/director is careful, it would come across as someone being afraid and avoiding something because it's been bad before. When, really...it's an unreasonable/exaggerated/inappropriate out-of-place reaction that the person is often quite aware is not appropriate to the current circumstance, but has to deal with the involuntary bodily fear response (or avoid circumstances that would trigger it). But the trigger is not even necessarily the bad thing that happened, but an incidental reminder - smell, sound, environment, etc. Soldiers react to the sound of fireworks, rape survivors react to the smell of their attacker's cologne or the song that was playing that night, etc. We probably won't want those sorts of triggers - we'd want to revisit the trauma - so have Amras remember Amrod's screams as someone else is in danger of dying - thematic reminders rather than incidental ones. So...not PTSD, elvish waking memory.
*Even people who don't have full-blown PTSD can experience post-traumatic stress events after having suffered a traumatic event. As an example, my sister has a birth story that's...well, let's just say it wasn't much fun, but both she and the baby were fine. She's talked and written about it - but I would warn any expectant mothers before reading her account simply because that might be stress they don't need. And yet, for her, the triggering memory is nothing to do with childbirth (she's gone through that again since with no issue), but with the wind in the palm trees - her heart started racing after she heard that once several years later, and it took her a moment to figure out why she was panicking for no reason. Her brain knew that she wasn't giving birth in a hurricane and that her kids were fine, but...the adrenaline racing through her said otherwise.
You're right, PTSD triggers can have so little resemblance to the event that you can have them for years, or your entire life, and have no clue what they actually are. You just have panic attacks out of nowhere for no apparent reason. It would make the character look like an irrational loose cannon (or asshole) for no reason the audience is likely to guess.
No, that isn't what I have in mind to portray any character.
I would not agree that Elves not getting diseases means they are immune to every possible mental illness, though. We would be better off deciding in each specific case. It’s not likely to come up much.
No, that isn't what I have in mind to portray any character.
I would not agree that Elves not getting diseases means they are immune to every possible mental illness, though. We would be better off deciding in each specific case. It’s not likely to come up much.
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In the case of traumatized Elves, a flashback would likely be emotional distress and nightmares (or daymeres), instead of panic, since their bodies aren’t dominant over their spirits.
EDIT: In more detail, I think that Elves absolutely can and do have the equivalent of flashbacks and nightmares: my interpretation is that their memories are very vivid and lifelike, more like reliving an event than how Humans remember. I think they can either choose to relive a memory, or be reminded of it, and if it's a traumatic or painful memory they would also relive the emotions of pain or grief. For really severe trauma, it would be like ripping the bandage or scab off an unhealed wound. However, I don't think that they "hallucinate" either bodily or mentally, but that they always effortlessly know memory from reality and are never confused by memories. I don't think that nightmares feel "real" to them as they usually do to us. I also don't think memories cut them off from perceiving the present.
For example, if an elf remembers being trapped somewhere, they may relive emotional pain and remember panic and fear, but they won't actually panic or feel fear, or feel trapped again.
EDIT: In more detail, I think that Elves absolutely can and do have the equivalent of flashbacks and nightmares: my interpretation is that their memories are very vivid and lifelike, more like reliving an event than how Humans remember. I think they can either choose to relive a memory, or be reminded of it, and if it's a traumatic or painful memory they would also relive the emotions of pain or grief. For really severe trauma, it would be like ripping the bandage or scab off an unhealed wound. However, I don't think that they "hallucinate" either bodily or mentally, but that they always effortlessly know memory from reality and are never confused by memories. I don't think that nightmares feel "real" to them as they usually do to us. I also don't think memories cut them off from perceiving the present.
For example, if an elf remembers being trapped somewhere, they may relive emotional pain and remember panic and fear, but they won't actually panic or feel fear, or feel trapped again.
I don't think Elves would have (or need to be shown having) flashback triggers seemingly unrelated to the trauma, that they have to hide from. But for Maedhros the reminder is constantly there, his own body which is maimed and scarred. He won't be able to entirely forget very easily/often. I don't see why he wouldn't have awful nightmares/daymeres, somewhat frequently, whether or not we ever want to show that.
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I apologize for the triple post. I'm attempting to shorten my proposal to save MithLuin some labor.
Short version of Faelivrin’s character arc proposal, using some ideas from Marielle, MithLuin, and especially Haakon:
Immediate reactions:
Shock, grief, and anger at Fëanor and his brothers. He comes out of shock during the 2nd Battle. He will forgive Maedhros but never forgives his other brothers.
First he’s conflicted about the Oath. He supported it and still wants the Silmarils and revenge on Morgoth. But he fears the Oath damned Amrod to the Void. He resents the Oath and his father. Then... he comes to an understanding that lets him cope. Amrod died because of the Oath and the Doom. Not because Amrod was guilty of breaking the Oath but because they’re all guilty of swearing it.
He won’t renew the Oath just to please Fëanor. It doesn’t matter, they’re already bound. He accuses Fëanor of leading them all to their doom. Fëanor has the vision that he has doomed Ñoldor, but won’t admit it.
EDIT: (But if we really depict Ep 1 with the sons of Fëanor NOT swearing the Oath (which is not my preference), then Amros has to swear it now.)
Fallout after Fëanor’s death:
Amros accepts Maedhros as leader, and is upset when he’s stuck with the leadership of Maglor instead (or of Curufin behind the throne).
When Fingon rescues Maedhros, it’s Amros who tells Fingolfin’s folk what happened at Losgar. The rumors reach the Sindar, contributing to Thingol’s confrontation with Finrod, Angrod, and Aegnor.
During the Siege he hopes they can prevail for a time, but thinks this can’t last forever. After the Bragollach he has less hope.
Attitude towards his brothers:
In Curufin vs. Maedhros machinations, Amros is on Maedhros’ side, until the Nirnaeth. He bitterly resents the others. He lives by Amon Ereb, far from them. When they get together for hunting, councils, or feasts, he won’t come.
When Dwarves meet Fëanorians, they initially trade with Curufin, who acquires Angrist . But Amros spoils Curufin’s trade by interfering with the Dwarves’ route to Himlad. But Thargelian is so convenient that they start trading with Caranthir.
When Finrod, Maedhros, and Maglor go hunting, Amros won’t join in. Later his aloofness leads Finrod to take the Edain north out of his territory, to Estolad. When his brothers invite Edain to ally with them, he pointedly doesn’t.
Fifth Battle
Amros still has confidence in Maedhros’ leadership and hopes they can renew the Siege for a time. But he won’t ally with Mortals, since his brothers do. Since Celegorm and Curufin despise Mortals, Ulfang is left with Caranthir, who isn’t a great friend. Instead of only having the bad luck to ally with people who already served Morgoth’s, the Fëanorians’ behavior is what drives the Curse.
Amros saves a brother in the battle – he doesn’t wish death on them. But he doesn’t reconcile with them, and after the Nirnaeth he loses confidence in Maedhros’ leadership. After all are wounded but survive, his views evolve from “The Oath is the abstract Doom of the Ñoldor” to “The Oath will be our personal Doom.” He talks about and quotes the Doom of Mandos. Nobody wants to hear that after the 5th Battle. So he’s shunned in turn. What is he left with? He alienated his brothers. The Ñoldor lost the war. The Oath is the only future he has left. Break it or fulfill it, it will be his fate. He isn’t fanatically for or against it, but resigned to it.
The Kinslayings:
Amros is certain the Oath itself will kill them all. Maybe in battle (so he doesn’t resist attacking Doriath), or maybe when they try to break it. He feels some remorse over Alqualonde, but not a ton.
Remorse isn’t why he goes along with Maedhros and Maglor trying to delay/break the Oath. They think they’ve convinced him Kinslaying is wrong, but Amros mostly thinks swearing the Oath was wrong. Out of spite, he wants to spoil Fëanor’s legacy, especially after the Oath killed 3 more of his brothers.
The Oath torments them like the Ring tormented Frodo – intrusive thoughts of desire for the Silmaril, visions of being cast into the Everlasting Darkness. Amros sees visions of his twin who might be there even now. He remembers Amrod’s screams in Lammoth. (Remind the audience what happened.) He doesn’t want to go to the Void and isn’t bothered much by Kinslaying. The pressure/torment of the Oath slowly unhinges him.
“Those people at the Havens are doomed anyway, Morgoth is winning, why not kill them? ‘Slain ye shall be,’ so why not die in a Kinslaying? We’ll all burn one way or another!”
Amros is killed in a fiery scene on the shore, in the Kinslaying. His death is not primarily because of Amrod, but because of the Oath. Amrod’s death was what led him to realize that the Oath had doomed them, and to become the spokesman for the Doom of Mandos.
Short version of Faelivrin’s character arc proposal, using some ideas from Marielle, MithLuin, and especially Haakon:
Immediate reactions:
Shock, grief, and anger at Fëanor and his brothers. He comes out of shock during the 2nd Battle. He will forgive Maedhros but never forgives his other brothers.
First he’s conflicted about the Oath. He supported it and still wants the Silmarils and revenge on Morgoth. But he fears the Oath damned Amrod to the Void. He resents the Oath and his father. Then... he comes to an understanding that lets him cope. Amrod died because of the Oath and the Doom. Not because Amrod was guilty of breaking the Oath but because they’re all guilty of swearing it.
He won’t renew the Oath just to please Fëanor. It doesn’t matter, they’re already bound. He accuses Fëanor of leading them all to their doom. Fëanor has the vision that he has doomed Ñoldor, but won’t admit it.
EDIT: (But if we really depict Ep 1 with the sons of Fëanor NOT swearing the Oath (which is not my preference), then Amros has to swear it now.)
Fallout after Fëanor’s death:
Amros accepts Maedhros as leader, and is upset when he’s stuck with the leadership of Maglor instead (or of Curufin behind the throne).
When Fingon rescues Maedhros, it’s Amros who tells Fingolfin’s folk what happened at Losgar. The rumors reach the Sindar, contributing to Thingol’s confrontation with Finrod, Angrod, and Aegnor.
During the Siege he hopes they can prevail for a time, but thinks this can’t last forever. After the Bragollach he has less hope.
Attitude towards his brothers:
In Curufin vs. Maedhros machinations, Amros is on Maedhros’ side, until the Nirnaeth. He bitterly resents the others. He lives by Amon Ereb, far from them. When they get together for hunting, councils, or feasts, he won’t come.
When Dwarves meet Fëanorians, they initially trade with Curufin, who acquires Angrist . But Amros spoils Curufin’s trade by interfering with the Dwarves’ route to Himlad. But Thargelian is so convenient that they start trading with Caranthir.
When Finrod, Maedhros, and Maglor go hunting, Amros won’t join in. Later his aloofness leads Finrod to take the Edain north out of his territory, to Estolad. When his brothers invite Edain to ally with them, he pointedly doesn’t.
Fifth Battle
Amros still has confidence in Maedhros’ leadership and hopes they can renew the Siege for a time. But he won’t ally with Mortals, since his brothers do. Since Celegorm and Curufin despise Mortals, Ulfang is left with Caranthir, who isn’t a great friend. Instead of only having the bad luck to ally with people who already served Morgoth’s, the Fëanorians’ behavior is what drives the Curse.
Amros saves a brother in the battle – he doesn’t wish death on them. But he doesn’t reconcile with them, and after the Nirnaeth he loses confidence in Maedhros’ leadership. After all are wounded but survive, his views evolve from “The Oath is the abstract Doom of the Ñoldor” to “The Oath will be our personal Doom.” He talks about and quotes the Doom of Mandos. Nobody wants to hear that after the 5th Battle. So he’s shunned in turn. What is he left with? He alienated his brothers. The Ñoldor lost the war. The Oath is the only future he has left. Break it or fulfill it, it will be his fate. He isn’t fanatically for or against it, but resigned to it.
The Kinslayings:
Amros is certain the Oath itself will kill them all. Maybe in battle (so he doesn’t resist attacking Doriath), or maybe when they try to break it. He feels some remorse over Alqualonde, but not a ton.
Remorse isn’t why he goes along with Maedhros and Maglor trying to delay/break the Oath. They think they’ve convinced him Kinslaying is wrong, but Amros mostly thinks swearing the Oath was wrong. Out of spite, he wants to spoil Fëanor’s legacy, especially after the Oath killed 3 more of his brothers.
The Oath torments them like the Ring tormented Frodo – intrusive thoughts of desire for the Silmaril, visions of being cast into the Everlasting Darkness. Amros sees visions of his twin who might be there even now. He remembers Amrod’s screams in Lammoth. (Remind the audience what happened.) He doesn’t want to go to the Void and isn’t bothered much by Kinslaying. The pressure/torment of the Oath slowly unhinges him.
“Those people at the Havens are doomed anyway, Morgoth is winning, why not kill them? ‘Slain ye shall be,’ so why not die in a Kinslaying? We’ll all burn one way or another!”
Amros is killed in a fiery scene on the shore, in the Kinslaying. His death is not primarily because of Amrod, but because of the Oath. Amrod’s death was what led him to realize that the Oath had doomed them, and to become the spokesman for the Doom of Mandos.
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Alcarohtar
Active Member
- Season 3:
- Amras is shocked when he hears Amrods screams, he then gets angry at Feanor.
- Maedhros “rebels” against Feanor and try to support Amras, but they never speak of Amrod. They're both very angry.
- The orcs attack and Amras is pouring his anger out on the orcs mowing them down.
- He is shocked that he killed so many of them, that he has so much anger. He stops in the middle of the battle and watch the hordes of enemies killed, then all of the balrogs moving in around Feanor, he loses hope. They've already killed so many, but now these huge monsters come, he sees that they'll never defeat Morgoth.
- He confronts Feanor, who’s mortally wounded, and blaming him for bringing upon them doom, they can’t defeat Morgoth.
- He still renews the oath, he’s already sworn it and is under the doom of Mandos.
- He supports Maedhros as king, because he's the only one to actually care for him, the others blame Amrod for betraying the rest of them.
- He supports the Maedhros attempt to parley with Morgoth, because he knows they can’t win the silmarils back with force.
- When Maedhros is taken he feels like he’s lost all. Maglor is now in charge, but it’s really Curufin who is ruling from behind.
- When Fingolfin comes he would rather go to join them, but they turn him away because of the burning of the ships. Amras is heartbroken and runs off.
- Season 4:
- Amras is about to commit suicide. He will break the oath and join his twin. But in the last minute he sees something odd. It’s the Sindar! He joins them and they give him comfort.
- Maedhros is freed and is again the leader of the feanorians. He let Fingolfin be king and moves east under the influence of the other feanorians (Curufin). Does he want to find Amras?
- Mereth aderthad: all elves are invited. When Amras hears that Maedhros was rescued he goes to the feast of reuniting.
- Maedhros and Amras comfort each other. Maedhros reminds him that all of this (death of Finwë, the oath, the kinslaying, going to middle earth, Amrods death etc.) is Morgoths fault.Maedhros defend Amras against the Fingolfinians who said he was responsible for burning the ships, but Amras himself wants to tell the “true” story, how Amrod died.
- Amras is now come to peace with his brother’s death. Morgoth is to blame. The siege has given him new hope and he is starting to believe that the oath is possible to fulfill.
Alcarohtar
Active Member
I know most of it wont work. Especially the Mereth Aderthad part. Fingolfin's people have to know about the death of Amrod before Mereth Aderthad, and they can't speak about the burning of the ships in front of the Sindar. It would spark tension and that's not what we want in the Feast of Reuniting.
Also I don't know what the Sindar "saving" Amras from death contributes to the story. I guess I wanted Amras to leak "secrets" from the Noldor, but how would that work?
Also I don't know what the Sindar "saving" Amras from death contributes to the story. I guess I wanted Amras to leak "secrets" from the Noldor, but how would that work?
If he tells the folk of Fingolfin what happened at Losgar, and at least 1 person among Fingolfin's folk tells at least 1 Sinda, the rumor will spread. If you want him to leak other things, what secrets were you thinking?
I don't think the Sindar would really welcome him, though. Initially Thingol is so anti-Noldor that nobody but Finarfin's children is allowed to set foot in Doriath, and he and his folk become even more hostil when Angrod blurts out about the Kinslaying to Thingol. Amros can't hang out with the Mithrim because... they don't exist according to Corey >_< He could potentially try to hang out with the Falathrim, but it may be awkward and would end once news of the Kinslaying came to Cirdan. It could be used to emphasize his alienation from other Elves, or to show him feeling remorse over Alqualonde.
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Alcarohtar
Active Member
I was primarily thinking about the burning of the ships, but maybe the Noldor have other secrets too? He can't talk about the kinslaying.
I like this better than my idea.
Do you think all sindar are like this? or just the court? I imagined Amras meeting sindar in the northern parts of Beleriand, maybe the pass of Sirion?
He could meet sindar who fled from the spider attack?
To show him feeling remorse over Alqualondë would be nice.
I don't think all Sindar are racist jerkfaces, no, even in Doriath. Before the Kinslaying was revealed, many of them were probably open to making friends with any Noldor, including Feanorians. Or *gasp* actually grateful for help against the Orcs. Unfortunately the best opportunity to show that was in Mithrim, which the Hosts absolutely oppose. The Falathrim are the other place contact can happen outside Doriath.
MithLuin the short version of my proposal is something I edited a lot of times to gradually trim it down and make it shorter. The last edit visible should be Saturday the 3rd at 8 pm. If you can't see the edited version and want me to re-post the final short version, I can do so.
Okay, here is the document I put together to be shared with the Hosts. As a heads up, it's over 4 pages in Word. I tried to make a cohesive argument while weaving in elements of a lot of people's ideas.
By killing Amrod in the shipburning, we alter the course of Amras’ life. What should that look like? What role will he play moving forward in our telling of the story?
Kill him off?
This idea is extremely unpopular. Also, one should consider the implications of suicide before making a character choose that route. We are telling a story of despair and hope, but quick unstable grief followed by killing himself is an ignoble way to go. We will have Túrin kill himself, of course, but … that is the end of a very tragic tale. The audience will know why Nienor and Túrin have reached the point of despair. Quick despair just looks like Amras couldn’t handle life in Middle Earth, and is too cowardly.
Trevor Trumbull: Even if Amras is depressed/in despair why does that necessarily mean he must always be depressed throughout the rest of the First Age? Sorrowful over the death of his brother, upset at the manner of that death, angry at his father I can understand. But does that lead to his committing suicide? I am not convinced.
Marielle: The only way I'm comfortable with this for Amras is in the "suicide by orc/enemy" route, and I'm not sure that throwing himself into the swords of the enemy, even if we somehow make it clear that he's seeking death, is enough to keep the "only elves kill Feanoreans" thing intact.
Cellardur: I too am not in favour of killing him off, but would like for him to be obsessed with trying to fulfill the Oath. The death of his brother trying to escape from the Oath can cause Amras to believe any form of escape is completely impossible.
Erucheb: I've not got strong feelings either way on keeping Amras around. Based on the later Maeglin story in War of the Jewels, Tolkien may have also considered offing him early ("5 sons of Fëanor"; 327ff.), but in other places Tolkien seems to still have Amras around, too. Comme ci, comme ça.
Faelivrin: I'm absolutely opposed to killing Amras in any way before the Third Kinslaying. He has to be alive to begin that war. I really strongly dislike the idea.
Themes
Tolkien created patterns for killing off the Sons of Fëanor. They all survive everything Morgoth does to them. None of them are killed by orcs, trolls, balrogs, dragons, werewolves, etc. Rather, each one dies after planning/orchestrating a kinslaying. Celegorm and Curufin are behind the attack on Doriath, and they die there. Amrod and Amras are the ones who push for the attack on the Havens, and they die there. Maedhros decides to rob Eonwë’s camp, and he dies after. Amrod is guilty of trying to abandon the Oath, though, and thus he enters a new element into the story with his accidental death. Fëanor’s death in battle immediately after can be seen as karma for accidentally killing his own son (well, on top of the Kinslaying and the betrayal of Fingolfin). We will want to make sure that some Oath-karma factors into Amras’ eventual death, too, to fit the themes and patterns of the rest of his family.
But nobody wants a mopey whiny depressed Amras for 6 Seasons!
AGREED. That would be tedious and boring and repetitive. Let’s not do that. Elves are unlikely to suffer from human mental illnesses anyway; he doesn’t have depression or PTSD. He’s been ‘wounded by grief’, whatever that means, and that wound can manifest differently over time. His grief can have stages to it. Most importantly, he should mourn as an elf who is aware his twin is not gone forever, but whose spirit is trapped in Mandos. He can go through a time of despair, but it needn’t last beyond the rescue of Maedhros.
Brian Dimmick: Instead of making Amras immediately angry at all of his brothers, maybe he is in shock and unsure of what to do and he gets no help from his brothers. They aren't exactly heartless, but they don't really understand what is going on and they are focused on other things (exploring Middle-Earth, fighting the battle, dealing with Fëanor's injury and death). Their reaction is something along the lines of "Yes, we know, it's terrible and we'll never forget him, but we have lots to do so get over it and help." That (along with his realization about what the Oath is doing and Fëanor's reaction) moves him past shock into anger at those around him. It helps to show that, while the brothers share the Oath, their bond maybe is not as tight as it might appear. And when Amras more or less turns his back on their company, it doesn't look mopey or petulant.
Håkon: Initially, Amrod and Amras took opposite opinions for and against the Oath. After the Shipburning, Amras takes on his brother’s position and becomes fatalistic; he will engage in fulfilling the Oath but at the same time always remind people of the Doom.
Amras’ role during the end of Season 3
Amras is a constant reminder of the Fëanoreans’ guilt. The audience is unlikely to have forgiven them for the Kinslaying or the Shipburning, but they sure did justify that to themselves and move on. No one in their group is talking about it. Except…Amras. He’s not willing to forgive his family who won’t even admit to their wrongdoing in killing Amrod. He becomes a reminder of the Doom of Mandos.
Amras can express his grief through weeping, spending time alone, etc. He can be cold/numb/distant/shocked at times. But he can also express anger and lash out, letting the audience hear his accusations. In battle, he can take his fury out on orcs. His brothers are having a grand old time winning a battle (after their initial surprise at orcs), but he’s not enjoying himself. Again, he’ll remind us of the cost of war.
At Fëanor’s death, there would be tension; the audience does not know whether Amras will obey his wish to renew the Oath or not. We see there that Amras is going to serve as a reminder of the Oath moving forward. His brothers have other concerns – war, politics, trade agreements, etc. Amras’ focus will ONLY be on Oath and family.
In the conflict between Maedhros and Curufin, Amras would side with Maedhros (as does Maglor), leaving Curufin with Celegorm and Caranthir. After Maedhros’ capture, the Fëanorean camp is in disarray. Maglor might be defacto leader, but Curufin is certainly trying to run things. This is the opportunity for Amras to speak out against Curufin; we will see that he will not follow his brother. So there is confusion there when Fingolfin arrives with his large angry host.
Cellardur: He can be bitter against his father for getting them to swear the Oath and hate the Oath, but he feels bound to try and fulfill it. Amras can hate what he is doing, hate what he has become, but feel trying to reject the Oath would cause greater trouble.
Faelivrin: Amras is very upset when Maedhros (whom he could accept as a leader) is captured and he’s stuck with the leadership of Maglor, which might really just mean the leadership of Curufin behind the throne. In the camp in Mithrim he sets his tents and his people off to one side. Henceforth, he’s not interested in hanging out with them when it isn’t official business.
Alcarohtar: Amras confronts Feanor, who’s mortally wounded, and blaming him for bringing upon them doom, they can’t defeat Morgoth. He still renews the oath, he’s already sworn it and is under the doom of Mandos. He supports Maedhros as king, because he's the only one to actually care for him, the others blame Amrod for betraying the rest of them. He supports Maedhros’ attempt to parley with Morgoth, because he knows they can’t win the silmarils back with force. When Maedhros is taken he feels like he’s lost all. Maglor is now in charge, but it’s really Curufin who is ruling from behind. When Fingolfin comes he would rather go to join them, but they turn him away because of the burning of the ships. Amras is heartbroken and runs off.
Season 4 and onward
After the rescue of Maedhros and the naming of Fingolfin as High King of the Noldor, Amras has a decision to make. He wants nothing to do with his murderous family, but he is bound by the Oath. So, he lives far away from them and plays only a minor role in the story. Amras’ attitude towards his surviving brothers is not depression, but akin to Turgon’s reaction. Turgon lost Elenwë, and blames Fëanor’s shipburning for causing her death. Amras feels a similar way about the Shipburning and the death of Amrod. So, while it looked like he ended the 3rd Season in total despair, now we see him forging his own path forward with some purpose. He is on board with the Oath and the war against Morgoth. He will still work vigorously to thwart Curufin, though.
We have specific ideas of roles Amras can take in some of the stories that take place in East Beleriand – the trade with the dwarves, the coming of the Edain, the decision of the Edain to move West, etc. He may even play a role in the Sindar (and other Noldor) finding out the truth of the Shipburning (though not the Kinslaying). He’s a minor character, but will be a voice within the Fëanorean camp that is not the same as the others.
Nick: Going forward, Amras (who has begun forming a relationship with Maedhros) will regain some hope upon the rescue of his older brother. He might even see the peace between Maedhros and Fingolfin as a sign that perhaps the Oath does not need to kill everyone before it can be fulfilled.
Faelivrin: He's reckless, and doesn’t entirely care if he lives or dies. He is not suicidal, he’s convinced that suicide would land him in the Darkness and that terrifies him. He doesn’t even consider betraying his brothers the way they betrayed Amrod. But he becomes... vicious. He can’t quit the war and won’t sabotage it. He’s still dedicated to revenge on Morgoth. He still wants to regain the Silmarils, but not for his father’s honor. During the Siege he has hope they can prevail for a time, but like Finrod he knows this can’t last forever.
Alcarohtar: Amras is about to commit suicide. He will break the oath and join his twin. But in the last minute he sees something odd. It’s the Sindar! He joins them and they give him comfort. When Amras hears that Maedhros was rescued, he goes to the Feast of Reuniting. Maedhros and Amras comfort each other. Maedhros reminds him that all of this (death of Finwë, the oath, the kinslaying, going to middle earth, Amrod’s death etc.) is Morgoth’s fault. Amras himself wants to tell the “true” story of the shipburning, how Amrod died., starting a rumor among the Sindar. Amras is now come to peace with his brother’s death. Morgoth is to blame. The siege has given him new hope and he is starting to believe that the oath is possible to fulfill.
Faelivrin: If there are machinations between Maedhros and Curufin, Amras is on Maedhros' side, until the Second Kinslaying. He won’t forgive the others. Sometimes he works at cross-purposes to them, not in sabotaging the Union of Maedhros or the attack on Doriath, but in lesser things. Instead of living just south of Estolad, he lives closer to Amon Ereb, far from his brothers. When they get together for hunting or councils or Mereth Aderthad, he doesn’t come. When they send letters to him, his responses are cold, or nothing. He is not abrasive or unpleasant to anyone else. It’s only a grudge/feud against his brothers.
The Fifth Battle and After
Now is where the Fëanorean story shifts. Amras would join the Union of Maedhros, and during the Battle, he would save one of his brother’s lives. He might be angry and unforgiving towards his family, but he does not want them dead.
After this defeat, Amras loses whatever hope was sustaining him through the First Age, and whatever trust he had in Maedhros’ leadership. Now, he is willing to align himself with Curufin, shifting the balance of power in the Fëanorean camp away from (the defeated) Maedhros. Now, with Celegorm, Caranthir and Amras willing to back his plan, Curufin can move forward with his efforts to regain the silmaril in Doriath. Without a shift in internal politics, Maedhros’ sudden lack of leadership might be difficult to explain.
So, now we see the decision to attack the Havens as the culmination of Amras’ story, of his balance of hope and despair, and his love/hate relationship with his own family. Losing more brothers is what pushes him over the edge into demanding that they fulfill the Oath and reclaim the silmaril from the Havens, or die in the attempt.
Nick: After Celegorm, Caranthir, and Curufin are killed, he becomes the voice of the Oath. He no longer truly cares if he lives or dies, as long as it is in the attempt to fulfill it. He convinces Maedhros that what is right or wrong doesn't matter. They must do as they have sworn.
Håkon: If Amras takes a position apart from his brothers and in part actually in some kind of opposition (although he fights in the wars), and the Sindar still consider him a kinslayer (rightfully), and the descendants of Finarfin and Fingolfin have similar views of him, then he will become utterly lonely, with just some servants and soldiers, and each encounter will lead to either him rejecting people or others rejecting him. In the end, his only choice, his destiny, will be to accept the consequences of the Oath. The only way to free himself from the burden of the Oath is to join in the kinslayings. He could do this without really being into it, and he could be reluctant to use violence and be one who tries to convince Dior to hand over the Silmaril he carries. In contrast, other brothers, like Caranthir, can be more full of aggression and have no qualms about killing those who keep the Silmaril, even if they are elves. I think he would contain a crucial aspect of the problems of the Oath that the sons live with and it would certainly be a mistake to kill him before the third Kinslaying.
Faelivrin: He feels more at peace once he fully accepts his fate is to die fulfilling the Oath. That’s all kinds of wrong, which is why it becomes self-fulfilling. And Amros is killed in a fiery scene on the shore, during the Kinslaying, which did involve burning according to Bilbo’s song in Rivendell. But the audience sees, though he was right that swearing the Oath doomed them, he was wrong that they had to give in to it. Maedhros and Maglor survive the Third Kinslaying specifically because of their reluctance. His death is not primarily because of Amrod's death, but because of the Oath. Amrod's death was what led him to realize that the Oath had doomed them, and to become the spokesman for the Doom of Mandos.
We want this character to stick around. We know he’s a minor character, and he won’t play any role in the stories of Beren and Lúthien, Tuor or Túrin. We don’t expect to see a lot of him. But we do want him to be around to remind people of the meaning and consequences of the Oath throughout the story, as he’s never going to forget what caused Amrod’s death at the hands of his own family. We are going to struggle to convince the audience that there is ANY reason why the Sons of Fëanor don’t just abandon their Oath, break it, renounce it, etc. Amras will be a good reminder that they fear the consequences of what happens if they try to break it, enough to continue moving forward despite the fact that that leads to more kinslayings. We’re going to show Maedhros struggling to keep the Oath focused on the war on Morgoth; Amras will be a counterpoint focusing on the affect the Oath has on the Fëanoreans themselves. He won’t be afraid to speak critically of his brothers.
Amrod is Dead; Long Live Amras!
By killing Amrod in the shipburning, we alter the course of Amras’ life. What should that look like? What role will he play moving forward in our telling of the story?
Kill him off?
This idea is extremely unpopular. Also, one should consider the implications of suicide before making a character choose that route. We are telling a story of despair and hope, but quick unstable grief followed by killing himself is an ignoble way to go. We will have Túrin kill himself, of course, but … that is the end of a very tragic tale. The audience will know why Nienor and Túrin have reached the point of despair. Quick despair just looks like Amras couldn’t handle life in Middle Earth, and is too cowardly.
Trevor Trumbull: Even if Amras is depressed/in despair why does that necessarily mean he must always be depressed throughout the rest of the First Age? Sorrowful over the death of his brother, upset at the manner of that death, angry at his father I can understand. But does that lead to his committing suicide? I am not convinced.
Marielle: The only way I'm comfortable with this for Amras is in the "suicide by orc/enemy" route, and I'm not sure that throwing himself into the swords of the enemy, even if we somehow make it clear that he's seeking death, is enough to keep the "only elves kill Feanoreans" thing intact.
Cellardur: I too am not in favour of killing him off, but would like for him to be obsessed with trying to fulfill the Oath. The death of his brother trying to escape from the Oath can cause Amras to believe any form of escape is completely impossible.
Erucheb: I've not got strong feelings either way on keeping Amras around. Based on the later Maeglin story in War of the Jewels, Tolkien may have also considered offing him early ("5 sons of Fëanor"; 327ff.), but in other places Tolkien seems to still have Amras around, too. Comme ci, comme ça.
Faelivrin: I'm absolutely opposed to killing Amras in any way before the Third Kinslaying. He has to be alive to begin that war. I really strongly dislike the idea.
Themes
Tolkien created patterns for killing off the Sons of Fëanor. They all survive everything Morgoth does to them. None of them are killed by orcs, trolls, balrogs, dragons, werewolves, etc. Rather, each one dies after planning/orchestrating a kinslaying. Celegorm and Curufin are behind the attack on Doriath, and they die there. Amrod and Amras are the ones who push for the attack on the Havens, and they die there. Maedhros decides to rob Eonwë’s camp, and he dies after. Amrod is guilty of trying to abandon the Oath, though, and thus he enters a new element into the story with his accidental death. Fëanor’s death in battle immediately after can be seen as karma for accidentally killing his own son (well, on top of the Kinslaying and the betrayal of Fingolfin). We will want to make sure that some Oath-karma factors into Amras’ eventual death, too, to fit the themes and patterns of the rest of his family.
But nobody wants a mopey whiny depressed Amras for 6 Seasons!
AGREED. That would be tedious and boring and repetitive. Let’s not do that. Elves are unlikely to suffer from human mental illnesses anyway; he doesn’t have depression or PTSD. He’s been ‘wounded by grief’, whatever that means, and that wound can manifest differently over time. His grief can have stages to it. Most importantly, he should mourn as an elf who is aware his twin is not gone forever, but whose spirit is trapped in Mandos. He can go through a time of despair, but it needn’t last beyond the rescue of Maedhros.
Brian Dimmick: Instead of making Amras immediately angry at all of his brothers, maybe he is in shock and unsure of what to do and he gets no help from his brothers. They aren't exactly heartless, but they don't really understand what is going on and they are focused on other things (exploring Middle-Earth, fighting the battle, dealing with Fëanor's injury and death). Their reaction is something along the lines of "Yes, we know, it's terrible and we'll never forget him, but we have lots to do so get over it and help." That (along with his realization about what the Oath is doing and Fëanor's reaction) moves him past shock into anger at those around him. It helps to show that, while the brothers share the Oath, their bond maybe is not as tight as it might appear. And when Amras more or less turns his back on their company, it doesn't look mopey or petulant.
Håkon: Initially, Amrod and Amras took opposite opinions for and against the Oath. After the Shipburning, Amras takes on his brother’s position and becomes fatalistic; he will engage in fulfilling the Oath but at the same time always remind people of the Doom.
Amras’ role during the end of Season 3
Amras is a constant reminder of the Fëanoreans’ guilt. The audience is unlikely to have forgiven them for the Kinslaying or the Shipburning, but they sure did justify that to themselves and move on. No one in their group is talking about it. Except…Amras. He’s not willing to forgive his family who won’t even admit to their wrongdoing in killing Amrod. He becomes a reminder of the Doom of Mandos.
Amras can express his grief through weeping, spending time alone, etc. He can be cold/numb/distant/shocked at times. But he can also express anger and lash out, letting the audience hear his accusations. In battle, he can take his fury out on orcs. His brothers are having a grand old time winning a battle (after their initial surprise at orcs), but he’s not enjoying himself. Again, he’ll remind us of the cost of war.
At Fëanor’s death, there would be tension; the audience does not know whether Amras will obey his wish to renew the Oath or not. We see there that Amras is going to serve as a reminder of the Oath moving forward. His brothers have other concerns – war, politics, trade agreements, etc. Amras’ focus will ONLY be on Oath and family.
In the conflict between Maedhros and Curufin, Amras would side with Maedhros (as does Maglor), leaving Curufin with Celegorm and Caranthir. After Maedhros’ capture, the Fëanorean camp is in disarray. Maglor might be defacto leader, but Curufin is certainly trying to run things. This is the opportunity for Amras to speak out against Curufin; we will see that he will not follow his brother. So there is confusion there when Fingolfin arrives with his large angry host.
Cellardur: He can be bitter against his father for getting them to swear the Oath and hate the Oath, but he feels bound to try and fulfill it. Amras can hate what he is doing, hate what he has become, but feel trying to reject the Oath would cause greater trouble.
Faelivrin: Amras is very upset when Maedhros (whom he could accept as a leader) is captured and he’s stuck with the leadership of Maglor, which might really just mean the leadership of Curufin behind the throne. In the camp in Mithrim he sets his tents and his people off to one side. Henceforth, he’s not interested in hanging out with them when it isn’t official business.
Alcarohtar: Amras confronts Feanor, who’s mortally wounded, and blaming him for bringing upon them doom, they can’t defeat Morgoth. He still renews the oath, he’s already sworn it and is under the doom of Mandos. He supports Maedhros as king, because he's the only one to actually care for him, the others blame Amrod for betraying the rest of them. He supports Maedhros’ attempt to parley with Morgoth, because he knows they can’t win the silmarils back with force. When Maedhros is taken he feels like he’s lost all. Maglor is now in charge, but it’s really Curufin who is ruling from behind. When Fingolfin comes he would rather go to join them, but they turn him away because of the burning of the ships. Amras is heartbroken and runs off.
Season 4 and onward
After the rescue of Maedhros and the naming of Fingolfin as High King of the Noldor, Amras has a decision to make. He wants nothing to do with his murderous family, but he is bound by the Oath. So, he lives far away from them and plays only a minor role in the story. Amras’ attitude towards his surviving brothers is not depression, but akin to Turgon’s reaction. Turgon lost Elenwë, and blames Fëanor’s shipburning for causing her death. Amras feels a similar way about the Shipburning and the death of Amrod. So, while it looked like he ended the 3rd Season in total despair, now we see him forging his own path forward with some purpose. He is on board with the Oath and the war against Morgoth. He will still work vigorously to thwart Curufin, though.
We have specific ideas of roles Amras can take in some of the stories that take place in East Beleriand – the trade with the dwarves, the coming of the Edain, the decision of the Edain to move West, etc. He may even play a role in the Sindar (and other Noldor) finding out the truth of the Shipburning (though not the Kinslaying). He’s a minor character, but will be a voice within the Fëanorean camp that is not the same as the others.
Nick: Going forward, Amras (who has begun forming a relationship with Maedhros) will regain some hope upon the rescue of his older brother. He might even see the peace between Maedhros and Fingolfin as a sign that perhaps the Oath does not need to kill everyone before it can be fulfilled.
Faelivrin: He's reckless, and doesn’t entirely care if he lives or dies. He is not suicidal, he’s convinced that suicide would land him in the Darkness and that terrifies him. He doesn’t even consider betraying his brothers the way they betrayed Amrod. But he becomes... vicious. He can’t quit the war and won’t sabotage it. He’s still dedicated to revenge on Morgoth. He still wants to regain the Silmarils, but not for his father’s honor. During the Siege he has hope they can prevail for a time, but like Finrod he knows this can’t last forever.
Alcarohtar: Amras is about to commit suicide. He will break the oath and join his twin. But in the last minute he sees something odd. It’s the Sindar! He joins them and they give him comfort. When Amras hears that Maedhros was rescued, he goes to the Feast of Reuniting. Maedhros and Amras comfort each other. Maedhros reminds him that all of this (death of Finwë, the oath, the kinslaying, going to middle earth, Amrod’s death etc.) is Morgoth’s fault. Amras himself wants to tell the “true” story of the shipburning, how Amrod died., starting a rumor among the Sindar. Amras is now come to peace with his brother’s death. Morgoth is to blame. The siege has given him new hope and he is starting to believe that the oath is possible to fulfill.
Faelivrin: If there are machinations between Maedhros and Curufin, Amras is on Maedhros' side, until the Second Kinslaying. He won’t forgive the others. Sometimes he works at cross-purposes to them, not in sabotaging the Union of Maedhros or the attack on Doriath, but in lesser things. Instead of living just south of Estolad, he lives closer to Amon Ereb, far from his brothers. When they get together for hunting or councils or Mereth Aderthad, he doesn’t come. When they send letters to him, his responses are cold, or nothing. He is not abrasive or unpleasant to anyone else. It’s only a grudge/feud against his brothers.
The Fifth Battle and After
Now is where the Fëanorean story shifts. Amras would join the Union of Maedhros, and during the Battle, he would save one of his brother’s lives. He might be angry and unforgiving towards his family, but he does not want them dead.
After this defeat, Amras loses whatever hope was sustaining him through the First Age, and whatever trust he had in Maedhros’ leadership. Now, he is willing to align himself with Curufin, shifting the balance of power in the Fëanorean camp away from (the defeated) Maedhros. Now, with Celegorm, Caranthir and Amras willing to back his plan, Curufin can move forward with his efforts to regain the silmaril in Doriath. Without a shift in internal politics, Maedhros’ sudden lack of leadership might be difficult to explain.
So, now we see the decision to attack the Havens as the culmination of Amras’ story, of his balance of hope and despair, and his love/hate relationship with his own family. Losing more brothers is what pushes him over the edge into demanding that they fulfill the Oath and reclaim the silmaril from the Havens, or die in the attempt.
Nick: After Celegorm, Caranthir, and Curufin are killed, he becomes the voice of the Oath. He no longer truly cares if he lives or dies, as long as it is in the attempt to fulfill it. He convinces Maedhros that what is right or wrong doesn't matter. They must do as they have sworn.
Håkon: If Amras takes a position apart from his brothers and in part actually in some kind of opposition (although he fights in the wars), and the Sindar still consider him a kinslayer (rightfully), and the descendants of Finarfin and Fingolfin have similar views of him, then he will become utterly lonely, with just some servants and soldiers, and each encounter will lead to either him rejecting people or others rejecting him. In the end, his only choice, his destiny, will be to accept the consequences of the Oath. The only way to free himself from the burden of the Oath is to join in the kinslayings. He could do this without really being into it, and he could be reluctant to use violence and be one who tries to convince Dior to hand over the Silmaril he carries. In contrast, other brothers, like Caranthir, can be more full of aggression and have no qualms about killing those who keep the Silmaril, even if they are elves. I think he would contain a crucial aspect of the problems of the Oath that the sons live with and it would certainly be a mistake to kill him before the third Kinslaying.
Faelivrin: He feels more at peace once he fully accepts his fate is to die fulfilling the Oath. That’s all kinds of wrong, which is why it becomes self-fulfilling. And Amros is killed in a fiery scene on the shore, during the Kinslaying, which did involve burning according to Bilbo’s song in Rivendell. But the audience sees, though he was right that swearing the Oath doomed them, he was wrong that they had to give in to it. Maedhros and Maglor survive the Third Kinslaying specifically because of their reluctance. His death is not primarily because of Amrod's death, but because of the Oath. Amrod's death was what led him to realize that the Oath had doomed them, and to become the spokesman for the Doom of Mandos.
We want this character to stick around. We know he’s a minor character, and he won’t play any role in the stories of Beren and Lúthien, Tuor or Túrin. We don’t expect to see a lot of him. But we do want him to be around to remind people of the meaning and consequences of the Oath throughout the story, as he’s never going to forget what caused Amrod’s death at the hands of his own family. We are going to struggle to convince the audience that there is ANY reason why the Sons of Fëanor don’t just abandon their Oath, break it, renounce it, etc. Amras will be a good reminder that they fear the consequences of what happens if they try to break it, enough to continue moving forward despite the fact that that leads to more kinslayings. We’re going to show Maedhros struggling to keep the Oath focused on the war on Morgoth; Amras will be a counterpoint focusing on the affect the Oath has on the Fëanoreans themselves. He won’t be afraid to speak critically of his brothers.
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Good! I also made a point about the twins and how they initially represented two positions (for/against the Oath) and how Amras would add his brother's position to his own after the Burning and be the fatalistic brother who will engage in fulfilling the Oath but at the same time always remind people of the Doom. Perhaps it is possible to include this.
I too am not in favour of killing him off, but would like for him to be obsessed with trying to fulfill the Oath. The death of his brother trying to escape from the Oath, cam cause Amras to believe any form of escape is completely impossible. He can have no joy or pleasure, but he can feel compelled to always try and fulfill the oath. He first amongst the Feanorians can be urging every attack, because he fears going against the oath will lead to something worse. He can be one of the first to paraphrase Maedhros' quote:
'But how shall our voices reach to Ilúvatar beyond the Circles of the World? And by Ilúvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not our word. Who shall release us?'
He can be bitter against his father for getting them to swear the Oath and hate the Oath, but he feels bound to try and fulfill it. Amras can hate what he is doing, hate what he has become, but feel trying to reject the Oath would cause greater trouble. In the end Maedhros might begin to agree with his viewpoint.
'But how shall our voices reach to Ilúvatar beyond the Circles of the World? And by Ilúvatar we swore in our madness, and called the Everlasting Darkness upon us, if we kept not our word. Who shall release us?'
He can be bitter against his father for getting them to swear the Oath and hate the Oath, but he feels bound to try and fulfill it. Amras can hate what he is doing, hate what he has become, but feel trying to reject the Oath would cause greater trouble. In the end Maedhros might begin to agree with his viewpoint.
@MithLuin : Wonderful! I'm amazed that you managed to somehow compile our voluminous character arc descriptions into something more manageable, while hiding most of the differences/disagreements between our different versions. 
Do you think adding the suggestion that he sometimes quotes the Doom of Mandos could excite the Hosts? I believe it was originally Marielle's suggestion.
I suggest you could rephrase this part:
Do you think adding the suggestion that he sometimes quotes the Doom of Mandos could excite the Hosts? I believe it was originally Marielle's suggestion.
I suggest you could rephrase this part:
to say "We have specific ideas of roles Amras can take in some of the stories that take place in East Beleriand." That would still be succinct, but indicate that there are concrete story ideas available when the time comes, instead of leaving the Hosts to think we only have vague "Well, we could use him somehow" speculations.