After rewatching first three episodes...

D

DolorousStroke

Active Member
I am less troubled by the mysterious appearance of Halbrand on the refugee boat near Galadriel's swimming marathon.

This is I think (and many agree) one of the most controversial series contrivances. I concur. There are problems. In retrospect, I think the writers have invited us to the following conclusion.

Galadriel has been hunting, stalking, pursuing Sauron for (hundreds of) years. It does not appear she has been close behind him; but it does seem her small force has been slowly cabining him into remote corners. (Why, by the way, is she said to command a northern "army"? She seems to command just a platoon. Maybe she had thousands just after Morgoth was banished; and then they dwindled; I wish this drama had been spelled out.) Her relentlessness has unearthed the few extant clues that he remains, that he has left a trail, that his servants still follow him, that he is still a threat.

So, of course--there is only one conclusion the writers invite us to. Sauron has also been keeping track of her.

And when she is semi-coerced into calling off the hunt, Sauron gets some breathing room. For the first time, he can move fairly freely.

So, of course--he hunts the hunter. The only person who has been a pest to him in the last century is now not on the offensive for some reason. The tracker can now be tracked. He is now free to leave the icy wastes without observation and harassment, and his first instinct is to find out why his nemesis has been recalled, whether it is permanent, and to kill her (the only real threat to his quiet rebuilding) if it is not.

He gleans that she is going West by sea (whether voluntarily or not he cannot be sure); in an abundance of caution he gets his own boat, with whatever random purpose he needs. Maybe he invents the purpose; maybe he gloms on to some other purpose; maybe there is some existing voyage and he causes it to go far, far astray. We know Gandalf was afraid of Sauron using wyrms in the conflict to come; maybe Sauron also had some acquaintance with sea wyrms, and could bargain with one for some theatrics even in his fugitive state.

But either way, he very actively searches and finds her, finds her unexpectedly shipless, friendless, marathon swimming back to Middle-earth, and he pulls her aboard his boat, and says: "The tides of fate are flowing; yours might be heading in...or out." Indeed the tides have turned. He is no longer on the run; while she is lost in the middle of an ocean after her civilization effectively renounced her. He thinks he might just have found common cause with an outcast. He thinks she might just join him.

And in the final episode of season one, this comes to fruition.

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So on second-watch I am not that bothered anymore; and indeed from his careful and knowing looks and quips I find Halbrand believable as a Sauron hunting a prey he is suddenly somewhat taken by. Query whether one needs plot development to sustain this more; that is, whether a show succeeds if it needs a second watch. But this point I think works on second-watch.

I am *more* troubled by the overall tenor of the show. Prof. Olsen and Dr. Maggie Parke have noted that you can't just say "it doesn't *feel* like Tolkien." That's not enough.

I agree--you need specifics. (I wish Other Minds and Hands would spend some time on what the "quintessence" of Tolkien is, so that we could explore more precisely what it means to fairly say something feels or doesn't feel like Tolkien.) I have many specifics about why it doesn't feel like Tolkien to me. But one particular one is that everyone is a brat. Now, I love having Galadriel be a brat. I LOVE it. The idea of her being not-fully formed is fantastic. I love that she is hot and cold, makes bad judgments, has tantrums, is bold and reckless, nearly wise and nearly suicidal. I love the portrayal. I love the grime. I love that she is obviously a near-hero. The writing succeeds in giving her room for development, indeed the writing begs for the room. It is said she is like a teenage elf, in maturity years. Fantastic, really and truly. The writers and Morfydd Clark wonderfully portray a 2,000 year old teenager. What an accomplishment.

The problem is that not everyone can be a brat. The Legendarium is full of people making bad decisions. But also Tolkien's world has heroes. And right now the show has Elrond being a politician (and not in a good way), Galadriel being a teenager, Gil-Galad being corrupt, Elendil being conflicted, Queen Miriel being clueless, the Stranger being developmentally delayed from a wizarding perspective, the harfoots being slightly murderous, Durin being reckless, etc. etc. They can't all be brats. Tolkien isn't the Breakfast Club, where a bunch of basically uniformly unlikeable characters forms a sum greater than the parts. Tolkien stretches the range of portrayed virtue from 0 to 11. Sometimes that virtue-vice range is in separate people, as in a Wormtongue vs an Eärendil. Sometimes the range is united in a single person, as in some kernel of folly in a fundamentally great character, like revealing Gondolin or building a bridge to Nargothrond. (Or as we're finding in ExLotRO, Boromir.)

But either way, Tolkien's dial really went from 0 to 11, without apology.

In ROP, the dial goes from 2 to 3. It is as if the writers thought they needed to develop *every* character from scratch instead of realizing they’re stepping into an age where where can be *some* established heroes. As if they needed to preserve some moral ambiguity for a big reveal. I think it doesn't "feel" like Tolkien because the highs and lows are all mushed together (and fairly downrange). That, for me, is one of the specifics as to why the show struggles to really be an adaptation of interest and value--and faithfulness. I'm willing to overlook a lot of random plot choices. (Lava canals!) I have to: I love Tolkien. (Eagles!)

I just want something that furthers the quintessence of Tolkien, and that Tolkien himself would have loved (if Tolkien were a slightly less crotchety person regarding changes/adaptations to his works).
 
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DolorousStroke said:
The writers and Morfydd Clark wonderfully portray a 2,000 year old teenager. What an accomplishment.
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The problem is, Elrond is less then a quarter of her age, and so is Gil-Galad. She is clearly very much delayed in her development compared to other elves and due to the time compression has now to grow up in a very, very short amount time. And if taking part in the War of Wrath has not already made her grow up - then what in the world will? There are not many other stimuli left in the whole of Arda as strong as the War of Wrath. Imho her character is beyond being salvageable at this point into the story.
 
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What is she now? A brat or a troubled ptsd person? I tended more towards the latter...

She clearly is NOT an empath which is the major change to her character they made. My major problem was the scene where she humiliated the young numenorean recruits... that was not a brat , that was a bad person.Thats what a feanorian would have done, not an empath.

What i found most interesting is... how soon and how much i have lost my interest in the show, i do not even enjoy discussing what i disliked anymore, i just stopped to care.
 
On that "northern army" thing...

I think that actually IS from the books.In one of the drafts JRRT wrote she and Celeborn left Beleriand to gather an army in Eriador... that alliance ought to be what they called "northern army" innthe show i guess... they mixed it up with her colony at Nenuial and her looking at dwarves and men "through the eyes of a commander", i didn't have any real problems with that particular condension.
 
As for Gil-Galad and Elrond being younger, they are not hinted at in the legendarium as being hot-headed. Galadriel is said to have left Valinor to get herself a kingdom. I find it believable that Tolkien wanted her to be viewed as hot-headed. And I find it believable that she’s older than Elrond and Gil-Galad, and yet those two are at this stage more mature. And that the War of Wrath actually accentuated her hot-headedness, including by mixing it with PTSD. And that only time and reflection and some events hopefully to be specified and mallorn trees generate her late in life etherealness. I find it believable that she would take have taken the Ring at this stage if offered it, and only later wisdom gives her the strength to reject it.

In short, I like the development arc for her, being a mess with potential. The problem is that everyone on the show is a mess. All messes, all the time.
 
DolorousStroke said:
In short, I like the development arc for her, being a mess with potential. The problem is that everyone on the show is a mess. All messes, all the time.
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But there are not many events left to facilitate such changes - except maybe seeing the Fall of Numenor with her very own eyes. Galadriel does not take part in the Battle of Dagorland in the books and her daughter's captivity, torment and passing info the West seem to late for such an effect in Galadriel's arc - except maybe if Celebrian were known to have been targeted explicitly as a revenge for her mother's past cruelty. But would such Galadriel even let her grandsons recover their mother, would she not go about killing the orcs that have captured Celebrian all by herself?
 
Hmm...
It is a different story from what i read in Tolkiens works and from what i had expected. If i can turn that thought off...

I see a very unsympathetic character, i admit i really hated Galadriel for how obnixious she was, i also see Elrond as a sympathetic nice guy who is lying and betraying all the time, i see Celebrimbor as an elderly man who is a naive dreamer, i see Gil-Galad as an authoritarian dictator, i see Durin as the insecure son of a larger than life, cold and calculating father-figure, i see Disa as a warm and loving wife with unhealthy ambitions, i see ....

I see what you mean 😱 ...

Frankly it wasn't a very interesting story to me apart from some details like some elements with the Halflings, some nice moments with the Numenoreans, some nice moments wirh Adar and Halbrand.It had some nice visuals. Too many details adding up and feeling off or simply not working for me too, from smaller action scenes to overall lohics of time and logistics or weird behaviour of characters to one another.
 
Completely agree. I don’t mind the RoP character arcs individually. Tolkien has heroic role models like Aragorn, Faramir, Sam, Elrond. Then he has people who start out bad and go good like Theoden (admittedly through a spell, but I found his weak king to strong king incredibly effective in the book). And people who started good and were corrupted like Denethor through despair and Saruman through powerlust. Isildur was brave but couldn’t destroy the Ring. Etc. Tolkien had both incredible heroes and great movement of ups and downs. Each of the RoP character arcs individually has some good movement.

But RoP is like Real Elf-Wives of Eregion in terms of maturity level. Some of the people needed to have been made heroic! Gil-Galad, Elendil (as Faithful) and Durin IV are good candidates, for example, to juxtapose against what could be plausible depictions of Celebrimbor’s careless curiosity, Ar-Pharazon‘s pride and Durin III’s mistrustfulness. But instead you get a connniver, a weak conflicted person, and a dwarf with daddy issues.

But I don’t care who you choose. It just can’t be one constant hot mess of petty conflict. This is the same as PJ’s dumbing down of Aragorn and Faramir, but applied universally to all characters. No one can write heroes because they don’t believe in heroes like Tolkien did.

Anyway, that’s why it doesn’t “feel” like Tolkien to me. It feels like a soap opera. I agree you need to justify why it doesn’t “feel” right. It’s not pettiness, which Tolkien showcased very well in some characters. It’s that they’ve made everyone too petty.
 
What i disliked were moments which were TOO obvious pastiche. Galadriels feanorian moments felt off.... but what was the Strangers Gandalf quote for example, or the battle for Tir Harad which felt like helm's deep inverted?

Gawd it's been months that i've been thinking of thst show, i had almost forgotten.
 
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DolorousStroke said:
Anyway, that’s why it doesn’t “feel” like Tolkien to me. It feels like a soap opera. I agree you need to justify why it doesn’t “feel” right. It’s not pettiness, which Tolkien showcased very well in some characters. It’s that they’ve made everyone too petty.
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Indeed. The aversion to let heros be heros when adapting a heroic epic story is very hindersome.

But what bothers me is the internal coherence of the characters. The positions RoP let them start from does not make them ever reaching the points that they need to be at the end of the story believable. The events that are before them do not warrant such drastic changes of character, especially if the events that they have already been through have shown no effect on them.
 
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Galadriels tragic moments i kind of did like actually... but the reasons, her brother and husband felt forced. I still think, together with some of her more headstrong scenes - those were her better moments. Still she came about as too one-dimensional for my taste, but maybe it is because them dropping her entire empathic part let me down so much.
 
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Haerangil said:
Galadriels tragic moments i kind of did like actually... but the reasons, her brother and husband felt forced. I still think, together with some of her more headstrong scenes - those were her better moments. Still she came about as too obe-dimensional for my taste, but maybe it is because them dropping her entire empathic part let me down so much.
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Her innate ability to read the hearts of others is the main point about her character in the books - as much characteristic for her as her special hair is - so she seems like somebody else in RoP - true.
Also her whole family background, her upbringing, heritage, seniority and social status is completely ignored - which does not help matters either...

But as DolorousStroke stated, she is not the only unrecognisable character in RoP. Almost all of them have a similar problem.
 
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It’s interesting, the mention of her empathic abilities. As far as I know, this is only mentioned in LotR, ie the Third Age? So it could be that she starts out as a hot-head, and gains empathy only as she matures. Indeed, this seems to be suggested by her desire to rule a kingdom in the First Age, followed by her rejection of power and the Ring and insight into persons in the Third Age. So far, the story is consistent with that progression. There’s a lot of Second and Third Age to come for her to mature, and a lot of events and life-experience can be packed into that time.

Again, though, I mainly started this thread just to get off my chest that I didn’t mind the Halbrand—Sauron transformation as much on second watch!
 
DolorousStroke said:
It’s interesting, the mention of her empathic abilities. As far as I know, this is only mentioned in LotR, ie the Third Age? 1
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No, she had them "from her earliest years". This is explicitly stated as such by Tolkien.

She was proud, strong, and selfwilled, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin; and like her brother Finrod, of all her kin the nearest to her heart, she had dreams of far lands and dominions that might be her own to order as she would without tutelage. Yet deeper still there dwelt in her the noble and generous spirit of the Vanyar, and a reverence for the Valar that she could not forget. From her earliest years she had a marvellous gift of insight into the minds of others, but judged them with mercy and understanding, and she withheld her goodwill from none save only Fëanor. In him she perceived a darkness that she hated and feared, though she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own. from "Unfinished Tales"
 
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Lotr is the book where Galadriel was INVENTED.She was retconned back into the older texts... thats why she does so little in the first age and second age. She was invented as an empath (originally a male iirc). She was hot-headed but learned wisdom from Melian in Doriath. In the second Age what interested her was power and ruling over others in a realm on her own, evennin lotr she still is somewhat shady and manipulative.... but she passes the final test.

The shows Galadriel,is a completely different character in all but name, and maybe the younger galadriels hotheadedness and amazon-like disposition.And that manipulative element of course.

In the books she is the one to mistrust Annatar from the start, in the show she is the only one to trust him and the person who introduces him to Eregion. Major difference!
 
Haerangil said:
The shows Galadriel,is a completely different character in all but name, and maybe the younger galadriels hotheadedness and amazon-like disposition.And that manipulative element of course.
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She can be shady and manipulative as much RoP wishes her to be - but she should never have been portrayed as socially inept. Cunning, strategizing, mastermind - all fine. Clueless and naïve - no.
 
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Yeah, the shows Galadriel is depicted as a weak character, very dependend on every male character around her-despite her fighting skills.who and whatever Galadriel was, she was never that.

she did not perceive that the shadow of the same evil had fallen upon the minds of all the Noldor, and upon her own

now i can see THAT in the shows Galadriel! Thats one thing they got right or a last less wrong...
 
The more distance I gain on the series now that it has been a few months since I've seen it, it improves for me in my mind because I can see that the season was designed as a set up to the story-to-come - really focused on establishing the world more than anything else. The Elf plot line was the least developed in my opinion of all the plot lines, but I expect that this will change as the story gets going. Galadriel, Elrond and Gil-Galad, who along with Elendil and Isildur and Pharazon and Miriel will be among the few who will make it to season 5 so they all have a long way to go with their plot arcs and character development. Gil-Galad's story hasn't even started yet (e.g. Bear McCreary said in his blog that he wasn't tasked with writing a theme for GG in Season 1 - He'll get one eventually). For me the stand out positive from Season 1 was the setting up for the story of the Fall of Numenor and the Kings Men vs The Faithful.
 
Yeah, its mostly details for me that keep adding up ,destroying the major picture as a whole. My major let downs, apart from the Galadriel part were the mithril-tree nonsense and the ringmaking. I could cope with most of the rest while i still perceived it as a mediocre, not very thrilling or interesting Story.

Adar , Elendil, Halbrand, even some of the Harfoot stories i did still enjoy. What you describe as a set up i felt was a mass of missed opportunities...
 
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I’m glad someone else read Bear’s blog after he was on Other Hands!

I generally agree with Ilana above. A very wobbly start, with some good scenes, good development, a lot of missed steps and annoyances, but in retrospect it will be judged largely how it plays out and pays out in 2-5.

I doubt this was the goal—to basically make a season just to set things up but which annoyed Tolkien fans and bored some non-fans. I bet they said before they started, “we’re going to do setup which is still legendary tv!” But I think it turned out to be ok tv and people will look back with forgiveness if 2-5 are great.
 
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