After rewatching first three episodes...

Ilana Mushin said:
This may have been dissatisfying in the S1 story (not having information about these random Southlanders), but I don’t see this as a problem transitioning into S2 - just some gaps that need filling at some point. We know there are civilisations beyond the maps because of the inclusion of Rhun as a place.
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Rhun cannot be reached by ship as yet. Even if the ME used is the "round from the beginning" version, no vessel would sttempt to sail.aound all of Harad to come to Rhun from the South. They would not know that this is even possibile, they would not know the way and they would starve and die of thirst several timex over in an sttempt like this.
So the whole setup for humans in ME is lacking. And what is Haradrim hunter up to in Dagorland?
 
Odola said:
Rhun cannot be reached by ship as yet. Even if the ME used is the "round from the beginning" version, no vessel would sttempt to sail.aound all of Harad to come to Rhun from the South. They would not know that this is even possibile, they would not know the way and they would starve and die of thirst several timex over in an sttempt like this.
So the whole setup for humans in ME is lacking. And what is Haradrim hunter up to in Dagorland?
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I don't think the humans on the boat are from Rhun - sorry if I wasn't clear. I just meant that the show so far has set up the possibility of other human populations around ME. I think we will find out more about the humans on the boat/raft in due course as part of the story of how Sauron got to be there so it's not a question that bothers me.

I think you might be talking about the set up for S1 - what the world is like. I'm talking about where S1 leaves us in preparation for the future seasons when I talk about 'set up'. I think we learn a lot about humans in Middle-earth in S1 from the story of the Southlanders (divided between those who follow Sauron and/or Adar and those who remain determined to resist Sauron/Orc invaders), and from the glimpse we get into Sauron-cults in Rhun. We also see the start of a collaboration between Numenor and the Southlanders, and have a glimpse of a history where Numenor once had settlements in ME, but have abandoned them for some reason. All of this for me is set up for future seasons.
 
It is in any way very weird how a ship from... lets say Harondor, and a ship from Lindon on its way to Eressea would even meet... those are the details i meant. I see that you mean, they establish certain motifs.
 
Haerangil said:
@Ilana Mushin But that's what i mean! If they appear random in the setup then to me uts nit a very well working setup.
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I'm taking the approach that if things 'seem random' (such as humans in the middle of the sundering seas), it's because I don't have all of the information/context yet. I don't mind not understanding the logic of things yet. I will mind if I still don't understand at the end of the story.
 
But is it a good setup then? Because to me too many open questions and seemingly randomness leave me asking and confused, not open to new motifs.
 
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Haerangil said:
But is it a good setup then? Because to mee too many opennquestions and seemingly randomness leave me asking and confused, not open to new motifs.
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Sounds like things that worked for me did not work for you. I don't think that makes something objectively good or bad. That's fine that we responded differently. I'd just repeat that I don't think a single thing in the show is actually random. I think that the people who have crafted this show have thought too long and hard about the story and about each piece of the story they are showing us. That doesn't mean they were successful in conveying what they intended - but I am confident that every bit of the story that was left unexplained or dangling in S1 will have a resolution somewhere along the line.
 
Ilana Mushin said:
I'm taking the approach that if things 'seem random' (such as humans in the middle of the sundering seas), it's because I don't have all of the information/context yet.
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But is this a set up at all if things just seem to appear randomly? This just sets up that "anything goes" if it happens to serve the plot, regardless of sense, geography and logic. Can this be even called a set up then?

The only thing that it sets up to me is the authors' declaration that "we don't care and we don't plan to"... - And I doubt that this was the intention?
 
Odola said:
But is this a set up at all if things just seem to appear randomly? This just sets up that "anything goes" if it happens to serve the plot, regardless of sense, geography and logic. Can this be even called a set up then?

The only thing that it sets up to me is the authors' declaration that "we don't care and we don't plan to"... - And I doubt that this was the intention?
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I think we are going to have to agree to disagree (I agree with Haerangil that we are probably going in circles now) on aspects of the show that don't seem to make sense at the moment.

One quick question though (because I'm currently curious about this) - do you have the same reaction to the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings films?
 
I read the books before so no. Suddenly we are in Bree, Rivendell, Moria,Rohan, Gondor, Mordor, things are not set up at all but simply are quickly introduced, which did work fine for me, even in those awful Hobbit films.
 
Ilana Mushin said:
One quick question though (because I'm currently curious about this) - do you have the same reaction to the Peter Jackson Lord of the Rings films?
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Only at places in LOTR - Arwen replacing Glorfindel - I did not think it set her up enough - Glorfindel is a non-entity in the LOTR books - why would taking his role help establish Arwen's? - imho it does not. Haldir coming to Helm's Deep - while a glorious scene - makes no sense in-story.
Still overall Jackson cares to tell a Tolkien story - even with some concession to "making the movies interesting" - for me most of those concession to the "rules of filmaking" weaken the story most of the time and do not enchance it. But those are few and in between and relatively easy to ignore. I e.g. like the introduction of Rosie at the beginning in the setup of the story in the Shire - this makes sense in-world and worked for me [even if I doubt that a respected landowner like Farmer Cotton would allow his only daughter to work at an inn!].
The issue was more problematic in the Hobbit movies where the logic was bent randomly at times just to accomodate some check-boxing: a movie "has to have a romantic interest" and similar - there where things forced therein disregarding the in-world logic just to conform to "the rules of movie-making". Still overall in is visible that Jackson attempted to tell a Tolkien story, and not one of his own just clothed in Tolkien-like veneer.
 
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One can‘t compare I think the kind of adaptation that has a full story by the author to adapt vs a story that is filling in gaps that Tolkien never wrote. I actually have more of an issue with the changes that PJ made to LoTR to make it a simpler story that would fit within a movie time frame (but I can understand why he did it), than I do with the creative choices RoP have made. I’m talking about things like the different role Saruman plays in films as an ally of Mordor rather than seeking to become his own power, the loss of the scouring of the Shire, the presentation of The Ring as causing people to start fighting with each other rather than as a source of temptation. That sort of thing.

As a friend of mine put it recently ‘it’s one long glorious chase movie‘ set in Middle-earth. I recently watched the LoTR trilogy for the first time in years and found myself more bothered by its speed, wanting to slow down the pace. LoTR would lend itself well to a TV series that has time to tell the story I reckon. After all, no one could accuse Tolkien of writing fast-paced stories. Lol.
 
Ilana Mushin said:
One can‘t compare I think the kind of adaptation that has a full story by the author to adapt vs a story that is filling in gaps that Tolkien never wrote.
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I simply cannot fathom how "filling in gaps" does include "cutting most of what he did write about it". Seems contraproductive to me...
 
I'd be far more interested in discussing of how COULD a second Age adaption be done and become creative by myself than discussing TROP tbh. It certainly gave me some ideas, thats for sure.

To set up 2nd Age and Sauron is a major issue.While i am not all too happy on how amazon did that, i am by myself unsure how I would do such a set up in an interesting way...
 
Odola said:
I simply cannot fathom how "filling in gaps" does include "cutting most of what he did write about it". Seems contraproductive to me...
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But how do you know that they cut things when we are only 20% of the way into the story? I see a lot of what Tolkien actually wrote in the show that they are making.
 
Haerangil said:
I'd be far more interested in discussing of how COULD a second Age adaption be done and become creative by myself than discussing TROP tbh. It certainly gave me some ideas, thats for sure.

To set up 2nd Age and Sauron is a major issue.While i am not all too happy on how amazon did that, i am by myself unsure how I would do such a set up in an interesting way...
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One of the reasons I particularly enjoy The Silmarillion Film project.
 
Ilana Mushin said:
But how do you know that they cut things when we are only 20% of the way into the story? I see a lot of what Tolkien actually wrote in the show that they are making.
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Then they cut it out just to force it back in later out of its context. Like cutting ones arm of for now just to reattach it later. Imho even worse.
 
Ilana Mushin said:
But how do you know that they cut things when we are only 20% of the way into the story? I see a lot of what Tolkien actually wrote in the show that they are making.
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? But they DID cut all numenorean stories before Elendil and they pretty much did cut all of the time Annatar spent in Eregion and made it all happen in a few days.
 
Haerangil said:
? But they DID cut all numenorean stories before Elendil and they pretty much did cut all of the time Annatar spent in Eregion and made it all happen in a few days.
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I don’t think they’ve cut the Annatar story. I think that will be a big part of S2. I don’t mind starting with ‘the begininning of the end’ for Numenor. The show never promised to tell the whole history of the second age as a chronological narrative. There’s so much in the Numenor sets and scenes that helps us understand the trajectory of their history to where they are now.
 
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