After rewatching first three episodes...

[Odola]

His solution is to 'pass the buck' to the higher authority of the Queen Regent and the Chancellor and to try and appear aloof.

And how does this excuse he getting both his captives out on board and then gloating in his power over them in front of his whole crew watching and publickly basking in their helplessness by not telling them their situation and denying them basic information - which they will learn soon anyway? He should have left them down in their room and transport then straight to prison once in port if he wants to minimise his own involvement and responsibilty. But for the sake of a dramatic scene and much overdrawn suspence for the audience he was shown as needlessly cruel for no apparent in-story reason.
One should respect one's own characters as an author and not let them do stupid things just because they happen to look good in a scene.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

And how does this excuse he getting both his captives out on board and then gloating in his power over them in front of his whole crew watching and publickly basking in their helplessness by not telling them their situation and denying them basic information - which they will learn soon anyway? He should have left them down in their room and transport then straight to prison once in port if he wants to minimise his own involvement and responsibilty. But for the sake of a dramatic scene and much overdrawn suspence for the audience he was shown as needlessly cruel for no apparent in-story reason.
One should respect one's own characters as an author and not let them do stupid things just because they happen to look good in a scene.

I don’t see it as gloating or lording it over others. I’ve explained what I think is going on for Elendil here based on what we find out later in this episode and in others. I don’t see his actions as just being to dramatise the scene, as I tried to explain. We’ve had a very similar debate about Galadriel so this seems to be another instance where you and I have drawn different things from watching the same scene. that’s fine - and interesting that there are these different interpretations. I’m not trying to persuade you to like something that you don’t like. I can’t answer your questions because I haven’t interpreted the scene in the way you have.

 

[Odola]

I don’t see it as gloating or lording it over others. I’ve explained what I think is going on for Elendil here based on what we find out later in this episode and in others. I don’t see his actions as just being to dramatise the scene, as I tried to explain. We’ve had a very similar debate about Galadriel so this seems to be another instance where you and I have drawn different things from watching the same scene. that’s fine - and interesting that there are these different interpretations. I’m not trying to persuade you to like something that you don’t like. I can’t answer your questions because I haven’t interpreted the scene in the way you have.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/09/09/08/62231627-11196075-Surprised_They_are_beckoned_topside_when_we_see_a_crew_of_humans-a-172_1662707398582.jpg

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1s/2022/09/09/08/62231625-11196075-Vessel_One_of_the_Eldar_On_board_my_ship_Strange_tides_indeed_El-a-173_1662707398583.jpg

How is this not publicly lording over currently disadvantaged people in a very vulnerable position and denying them the basic information about their own situation?

And there any valid reason in-story for this denial? No. It is just to keep the scene interesting for the audience. But as side effect the audience's first impression of Elendil is that he is a condescending jerk (who takes a silent pleasure in abusing his power).
Imho completely not worth it.

And it tells us nothing about Elendil's inner conflict, as no part of this conflict obliges him to be a jerk to shipwrecked people.

The scene artificially prolongs the suspence that the audience feels on behalf of G&H - the uncertainty if they are safe or not - but still it ruins Elendil's introduction in the process. And Elendil is an important hero for the story, he should be above unnecessarily tormenting the shipwrecked.

 

[MithLuin]

As a friend of mine put it recently ‘it’s one long glorious chase movie‘ set in Middle-earth. I recently watched the LoTR trilogy for the first time in years and found myself more bothered by its speed, wanting to slow down the pace. LoTR would lend itself well to a TV series that has time to tell the story I reckon. After all, no one could accuse Tolkien of writing fast-paced stories. Lol.

Whereas at the time, audiences who were not familiar with the book complained that it was a movie about people walking everywhere! So, even in the 'fast-paced' version, there is a lot more attention to the mechanics of travel over vast distances than in most similar media.

But I agree it would make a good television show -- maybe 6 seasons in Silm Film? 😉

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Whereas at the time, audiences who were not familiar with the book complained that it was a movie about people walking everywhere! So, even in the 'fast-paced' version, there is a lot more attention to the mechanics of travel over vast distances than in most similar media.

But I agree it would make a good television show -- maybe 6 seasons in Silm Film? 😉

In FoTR Gandalf going to Minas Tirith, then back to the Shire and then to Isengard made no sense to me in terms of time taken, especially when paired with Frodo's journey to Rivendell. Frodo and Sam walking across the Shire montage was nice - but suddenly showing up in the rain at Bree was a bit of a jolt.

 

[Incurable Dent]

Thanks for beginning this discussion. I am reluctant to re-watch Rings of Power for several reasons, and am looking for encouragement. I have found some here, but perhaps not enough. 🙂

Like a bunch of folks, I found Galadriel's characterization hard to take. At some point in the series I started feeling that Galadriel's hunt for Sauron was dramatically similar to Batman hunting the Joker, and I have been unable to get that out of my head. Especially if at some point a RoP creator said, "Hey, what if Batman had a gun?"

What I have gleaned from the discussion here is that perhaps RoP isn't portraying Galadriel as vengeful and immature because the creators couldn't come up with a better idea. Possibly what we are seeing is a compressed timeline Galadriel. RoP can't use the Silmarillion so RoP has to put her character starting point into the Second Age, where, to Tolkien readers, it does not belong.

But now I am worried that the RoP event that will help transform Galadriel is her ring of power. Perhaps she'll put the ring on and experience empathy, insight, wisdom, etc. That would turn her character assets into something unearned instead of innate or won through experience.

Aside from the Galadriel characterization, the RoP series moment I dread seeing again is the graphic violence when the orcs attack the Southlanders. Swords going into people. Repeatedly. I just watched The Witcher S2, a very violent show, and it cuts away to people's faces in similar scenes. If RoP continues to include horrendous violence I will not be able to watch the future seasons.

Another thing I fear is season five ending with a baby Smeagol. 🙂

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Thanks for beginning this discussion. I am reluctant to re-watch Rings of Power for several reasons, and am looking for encouragement. I have found some here, but perhaps not enough. 🙂

Like a bunch of folks, I found Galadriel's characterization hard to take. At some point in the series I started feeling that Galadriel's hunt for Sauron was dramatically similar to Batman hunting the Joker, and I have been unable to get that out of my head. Especially if at some point a RoP creator said, "Hey, what if Batman had a gun?"

What I have gleaned from the discussion here is that perhaps RoP isn't portraying Galadriel as vengeful and immature because the creators couldn't come up with a better idea. Possibly what we are seeing is a compressed timeline Galadriel. RoP can't use the Silmarillion so RoP has to put her character starting point into the Second Age, where, to Tolkien readers, it does not belong.

But now I am worried that the RoP event that will help transform Galadriel is her ring of power. Perhaps she'll put the ring on and experience empathy, insight, wisdom, etc. That would turn her character assets into something unearned instead of innate or won through experience.

Aside from the Galadriel characterization, the RoP series moment I dread seeing again is the graphic violence when the orcs attack the Southlanders. Swords going into people. Repeatedly. I just watched The Witcher S2, a very violent show, and it cuts away to people's faces in similar scenes. If RoP continues to include horrendous violence I will not be able to watch the future seasons.

Another thing I fear is season five ending with a baby Smeagol. 🙂

Well baby Smeagol would be a 3rd age story I guess. So hopefull that won't come to pass. Lol. My guess is the series will end with the end of the 2nd age, possibly the death of Isildur.

I think you are right that the show makers had to try and work out a balance between presenting Galadriel as a main adversary of Sauron and giving her a starting point and room to grow. Their decision I think was to present Galadriel in this season as someone who was reaching rock-bottom after a long period of increased obsession with trying to find Sauron to a point where she seems to be the lone voice in believing that Sauron still poses a threat. We are left to extrapolate how she got to this point, with the episode 7 reveal of Celeborn as a glimpse into a version of herself at a happier time. My feeling by the end of the episode is that she is already turning a corner and she won't need a Ring of Power in order to gain wisdom and to make sure that she is never fooled by Sauron again. I think she has empathy and wisdom, as she showed to Theo in ep 7 and Elrond in Ep8 - but she had lost all of that in her relentless pursuit of vengeance. So her reflecting after she had threatened genocide in that quiet moment with Halbrand is I think her coming to terms with how far she had gone down a very dangerous path.

 

[Odola]

So her reflecting after she had threatened genocide in that quiet moment with Halbrand is I think her coming to terms with how far she had gone down a very dangerous path.

Do not see how. She lets Sauron escape when a small unit of elves sent after him would kill him easily yet. While she might now understand that killing Sauron does not resolve the matter as he is a Maia (he basically admitted that to her in his confession that he is one of the Ainur) and will come back when killed - Adar reportedly killed him, and still here he was - but still she abandons her century old goal to kill him just to protect her reputation, to not to have to admit publicly that she has been wrong in assessing Halbrand. She seems completely unchanged yet and without any self-reflection.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Do not see how. She lets Sauron escape when a small unit of elves sent after him would kil him easiły yet. While she might now understand that killing Sauron does not resolve the mater as he is a Maia (he basically admitted that to her in his confession that he is one of the Ainur) and will come back when killed - Adar reportedly killed him, and still here he was - but still she abandons her century old goal to kill him just to protect her reputation, to not to have to admit publicly that she has been wrong in assessing Halbrand. She seems completely unchanged yet and without any self-reflection.

I don't know enough yet to feel that I understand her motivations for not immediately outing Sauron in Ep8. It may be because she is feeling humiliated, or it may be something else. She has just been assaulted by Sauron and she managed to repel him but you can see she is exhausted and shocked by the experience. She asked Elrond to trust her so I'm going along with that until I have more information.

 

[Odola]

I don't know enough yet to feel that I understand her motivations for not immediately outing Sauron in Ep8. It may be because she is feeling humiliated, or it may be something else. She has just been assaulted by Sauron and she managed to repel him but you can see she is exhausted and shocked by the experience. She asked Elrond to trust her so I'm going along with that until I have more information.

If she is trying to trick Sauron into binding himself to an object in order to control the three rings - she deliberately used the creation of the three as a bait - to make him at all vulnerable to anything - this would involve a level of insight and cunning that she was consistenly shown as completly bereft of during the season one.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

If she is trying to trick Sauron into binding himself to an object in order to control the three rings - she deliberately used the creation of the three as a bait - to make him at all vulnerable to anything - this would involve a level of insight and cunning that she was consistenly shown as completly bereft of during the season one.

This is precisely why I'm not trying to second guess it at this point in the story.

 

[Odola]

She has just been assaulted by Sauron and she managed to repel him but you can see she is exhausted and shocked by the experience. She asked

She is reportedly a warrior in RoP who is used to combat. She should not be shocked at having been confronted by a cunning enemy but react in kind. That is what she has been training for for millenia. She is not a damsel who has been taught just some basic self-defense and who can allow herself to be shocked after an actual confrontation. You cannot have it both ways - either she is a damsel or a warrior, both at the same time does not work.

And by the way - she set up the confrontation herself at the stream by making it obvious to Halbrand that "she knows" and also where she is going, alone - so she should have at least 3 possible scenarios ready in her head about how such a confrontation would progress and how she wants it to end in each case. She set it up, she should have something prepared for this already well in advance.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

Damsel vs warrior seems a very simplistic and false dichotomy to me. Warriors are complex like everyone else. But again, for me (and I stress this is my own perspective and doesn’t have to be anyone else’s) I’m happy just following along with what is happening and using these scenes to build up piece by piece an understanding of the character of Galadriel as it is being portrayed in this program. I don’t have all the pieces yet to judge what was going on in those scenes. We learned in Ep8 what was going through Galadriel’s mind when she jumped off the boat in Ep1 in her conversation with Elrond, so I expect big gaps between characters actions and their interpretations of their actions in later scenes, including across seasons.

 

[Odola]

Damsel vs warrior seems a very simplistic and false dichotomy to me.

But warriors are trained for war. That is what makes them warriors. That kind of... the point. 😉

I don’t have all the pieces yet to judge what was going on in those scenes.

That is a problem. It comes of a random and incoherant and in addition to that not very sympathetic. As DolorousStroke stated in the first post here "The problem is that not everyone can be a brat." Even if they turn all characters miraculously into heroes in season 4 or 5, only few will keep watching the show by that time. It has to make at least a little sense now.

 

[Ilana Mushin]

But warriors are trained for war. That is what makes them warriors. That kind of... the point. 😉


That is a problem. It comes of a random and incoherant and in addition to that not very sympathetic. As DolorousStroke stated in the first post here "The problem is that not everyone can be a brat." Even if they turn all characters miraculously into heroes in season 4 or 5, only few will keep watching the show by that time. It has to make at least a little sense now.

I completely agree and would feel the same if I didn't already find Galadriel a compelling and sympathetic character whose actions and emotional responses in the show do not seem random or incoherent to me, even if I don't understand everything that is going on for her yet (such as why she hides the truth about Sauron at the end). The debate here seems to be hinging on this point. I totally accept that lots of people, like you, dislike the way she is being portrayed.

 

[Odola]

I totally accept that lots of people, like you, dislike the way she is being portrayed.

Not only her. There seems no other character really worth rooting for. All seem kind of strange/irrational or shady or with no clear motivation. Orcs actually make the most sense. And many viewers find it easier to root for the "bad guys" in RoP as at least those are somehow understandable. The "good guys" are just a big mess. They do not know what they want and why. And if they claim they do then their clumsy unconvinced actions contradict it almost immediately. And as such we don't care.

 

[MithLuin]

I agree that Adar was an interesting and unexpected character. I know they recast him for Season 2, so we will likely get more of his backstory with Sauron at that time.

Certainly, everyone can root for Poppy and Nori and Nori's parents. I know that the Harfoots overall have a darker side to them, with how quickly they turn on the 'nobody left behind' idea. But those 4 characters are interesting and exactly there for the audience to root for. I obviously don't know if we'll see the Harfoots again after Nori sets out on her own, but there is certainly potential for them to reappear later!

 

[Ilana Mushin]

I agree that Adar was an interesting and unexpected character. I know they recast him for Season 2, so we will likely get more of his backstory with Sauron at that time.

Certainly, everyone can root for Poppy and Nori and Nori's parents. I know that the Harfoots overall have a darker side to them, with how quickly they turn on the 'nobody left behind' idea. But those 4 characters are interesting and exactly there for the audience to root for. I obviously don't know if we'll see the Harfoots again after Nori sets out on her own, but there is certainly potential for them to reappear later!

My husband can’t watch the scenes with Nori and Largo especially, but the Harfoots in general without turning into a puddle of tears. It might be a ‘father of daughters’ thing.

I‘m rooting for Elendil and Isildur as well. We know that’s going to be a long story.

 

[Odola]

Certainly, everyone can root for Poppy and Nori and Nori's parents.

But what for? They have no compelling goals as yet. They are just there. And Nori just went out to see the world outside of the beaten path. If she wanders ahead for half a day then she has reached her goal already. What to root for here?

I‘m rooting for Elendil and Isildur as well. We know that’s going to be a long story.

What does Isildur want? - everything in general and nothing specific.
What does Elendil want? - to stay alive and undercover and beyond that nothing specific as yet too...

 

[Haerangil]

I did like them, without any goals.