After rewatching first three episodes...

Ilana Mushin said:
I don’t think they’ve cut the Annatar story. I think that will be a big part of S2. I don’t mind starting with ‘the begininning of the end’ for Numenor. The show never promised to tell the whole history of the second age as a chronological narrative. There’s so much in the Numenor sets and scenes that helps us understand the trajectory of their history to where they are now.
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The issue is it seems like they start to bake a cake backwards. They backed the flour first, then they hinted at that they intend to add the butter in and I am left with the impression they might plan to throw the raw egg at me as the consumer in the end. Not a very promising and appetizing prospect.
 
How can they tell it if they already cut it?

This was my personal write up for a theoretical season 1:

Just to emphasize what has been adapted so far, what has been cut, what has been left out so far but might still appear in future seasons...


  • Gil-galad turns away Annatar; Númenóreans begin to construct permanent havens.Elrond Gil-Galad's Herald.
  • Annatar comes to Eregion, Galadriel-Celeborn-Celebrimbor love-triangle, friendship of Celebrimbor and Narvi
  • Eriadorian downsmen have contact with Galadriels folk at evendim, they contact the elves of Lindon and wish to meet with the "Men of the seas".
  • The Númenoreans meet the eriadorian Downsmen.
  • Visits of Aldarion, building of Vinyalonde.Conflict with the Gwathuirim
  • Galadriel becomes Annatars main adversary, Annatar convinces Celebrimbor of an unbloody overthrow of the Lords of Eregion and placing himself and the powerful jewel-smith guild as the new quasi-government.
  • Celebrimbor remakes the Elessar.
  • Galadriel go to Lothlórien while Celeborn chooses to remain and oppose Annatar from within. Young Celebrian.
  • Annatar travels Eriador with few attendants.He makes allies among men living in vicinity to Mordor and even some tribes west of the Anduin.The Numenoreans reveal his devices and deliver them to Gil-Galad.His emissariess walk secretly among the Easterlings.He is not recognized and rejected by the wild eastern Orc tribes who laught at him.
  • Annatar is exposed to be Sauron and has to leave Eregion, Celebrimbor travels to Lothlorien to seek Galadriels advice, she proposes him to hide and not use the three rings.Celebrimbor entrusts one ring to Galdriel and departs to hand over the two remaining rings to Gil-Galad.Celebrimbor gives the first of the seven rings to Durin.
  • The One Ring is forged; Barad-dûr completed; Sauron openly proclaims himself;
  • Glorfindel, Rómestámo and Morinehtar arrive in Lindon.
  • Sauron claims the three, the nine and the seven rings.War of the Elves and Sauron begins.Sauron invades Eriador.Amroth son of Amdír and Agaldor form a friendship. Gwathuirim ally with Sauron.Saurons forces enter Eriador, they sack the elven-realm of Eregion; he gets access to the nine and six of the seven rings but has to find out the other three have been brought to safety.Even after torture Celebrimbor refuses to give away their places of hiding.Death of Celebrimbor.Surviving Elves found the refuge of Imladris, others cannescape through Khazad dum to Lorien.Dwarves and Galadhrim assail Sauron from behind; Khazad-dûm closes and is put under permanent siege from the outside as well as intrusions from the Underdeeps.
  • Celebrimbor helps to defend Imladris , Galadriel joins her husband and the couple reunites.Elrond meets Celebrian.Survivors of Eregion go to Imladris and Lorien.
  • Orcs from the North invade Gundabad.
  • Sauron overruns Eriador. Sauron lays siege to Lindon and Imladris, gil-Galad sends messenger to Númenor. Tar-Telperien of Númenor sends a fleet for rescue.Battle of Mithlond, Battle of Sarnford, Battle of the Gwathló, Saurons forces are finally defeated in Eriador by Elves and Númenóreans under King's Heir Minastir.First White Council held; Galadriel and Celeborn depart for Belfalas.Saurons retreating forces are attacked in Rhovanion by the Wood-elves, he returns to Mordor humiliated.
  • Destruction of Vinyalonde.Death of Agaldor.Amroth departs to Lothlorien.
  • Other characters:Amdír Malgalad, Ancalime, wife of Durin, Celebrian, Cirdan, Durin II/Durin IV, wife of Amdir, Tar-Aldarion, Tar-Telperien, King of eastern orcs?, Isilmo,wife of Minastir?, Nimrodel and Mithrellas ?, , Oropher, Thranduil, Galdor?

 
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Odola said:
The issue is it seems like they start to bake a cake backwards. They backed the flour first, then they hinted at that they intend to add the butter in and I am left with the impression they might plan to throw the raw egg at me as the consumer in the end. Not a very promising and appetizing prospect.
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That’s fine if you see it that way.
 
That’s fine @Haerangil. I haven’t done the same kind of imagining as you did, but your S1 is as valid as anyones. It’s not the same story as the one that RoP is trying to tell. The GREAT things about Tolkien is how much space he gave in his stories of 1st and 2nd ages for us to fill in with our own imaginings. Like I said above, one of the chief things I love about SilmFilm.
 
Allright...
  • Galadriel becomes Annatars main adversary.
  • Hobbits are a wild and savage people
  • Sauron appears as a man
  • Elrond Gil-Galad's Herald.
  • Annatar is not recognized and rejected by the wild eastern Orc tribes who laught at him.
  • Annatar comes to Eregion,
  • Annatar is exposed to be Sauron and has to leave Eregion

  • conflict between Faithful and Kingsmen
  • Death of Tar-Palantir
This is the JRRT material TROP used.Everything else was filling out gaps.
 
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Haerangil said:
Just to emphasize what has been adapted so far, what has been cut, what has been left out so far but might still appear in future seasons...
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As far as I see this is mostly what Tolkien wrote with a little added in to flesh it out. Looks both feasible and interesting. And first and foremost - it makes sense both within itself and in connection to the later stories that are already told.
 
Fleshed out? I thought i had removed everything i had added by myself and only listed everything JRRT wrote, including short notes and unfinished ideas.
 
Haerangil said:
  • Galadriel becomes Annatars main adversary,
This is the JRRT material TROP used.Everything else was filling out gaps.
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She was that it in RoP already at its very beginning - so this whole arc is completely wasted and brought us nowhere.
 
I also don't really mind cutting elements of story out. You can't adapt an entire universe of narratives. Cuts WILL be made in any adaptation to serve the story the adaptor is telling. It won't be a one-for-one adaptation otherwise...why do it? Adaptation isn't about just recreating a medium in another medium. It's about adapting. You can not enjoy the adaptations, totally get that. And we can disagree with whether we liked things or not. But the idea that they cut stuff being an issue doesn't quite gel for me. You can argue that what they cut is integral and therefore overall utterly misses the point of the world that it takes place in (don't get me started on the Artemis Fowl movie). But again, that's a personal preference. Some adaptations are wild WILD departures from their source material but function as great art in their own right. But that is also subjective preference. I think Ilana is stating, and I would agree, that the idea of them cutting stuff isn't an evil in itself and we don't yet know what has been subtracted or its overall purpose. So by that metric we only have the first season to go on. So we CAN hope for more in season 2. But equally, as we only have season one to go on people are ENTIRELY vindicated in not liking it BECAUSE stuff they felt was integral is missing. The issue of subtracting or including storylines isn't an inherit flaw in itself, it's just whether it was enjoyable. And that is the crux of the debate which we won't agree on.
 
Haerangil said:
Fleshed out? I thought i had removed everything i had added by myself and only listed everything JRRT wrote, including short notes and unfinished ideas.
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minor things like:
"Celeborn chooses to remain and oppose Annatar from within"

makes sense and is noble but as far I remember his motivation not go to Lorien via Moria was that he hated all dwarves for killing Thingol (whose murder actually Elrond should also have a problem with to a degree) - not that I would not appreciae this shift of accent at this point - I would whole-heartedly support it.

also the
"wild eastern Orc tribes who laught at him."
is unknown to me in the sources?
 
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Bladerunner was a great adaption that cut out almost everything and was not really faithful to the book...

As i said, it is not entirely about if i DID like s01 or not.I did not really enjoy it, but there were elements i did like.But that has nothing to do with not being able to judge s01 just because it was a setup.Of course one STILL can judge it (and even like it, or dislike). It was a set up.But in how far was it a good one, or if not why.
 
Rob Harding said:
I also don't really mind cutting elements of story out.
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O course. But if one complains there is barely anything there and then cuts 80% of that little that was there how do you expect it to stay recognisable as Tolkien at all? What is the Tolkien content left in the whole the - like 5%?
 
Odola said:
minor things like:
"Celeborn chooses to remain and oppose Annatar from within"

makes sense and is noble but as far I remember his motivation not go to Lorienvia Moria was that he hated all dwarves for killing Thingol (whose murder actually Elrond should also have a problem with to a degree) - not that I would not appreciae this shift of accent at this point - I would whole-heartedly support it.

also the
"wild eastern Orc tribes who laught at him."
is unknown to me in the sources?
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Both Tolkien i believe.1st unfinished tales iirc,or was it really just his dwarf-hatred? Hmm... maybe u DiD make up that one in my own mind...

2nd:Nature of middle-earth.
 
Odola said:
O course. But if one complains there is barely anything there and then cuts 80% of that little that was there how do you expect it to stay recognisable as Tolkien at all? What is the Tolkien content left in the whole the - like 5%?
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I think it's entirely possible to tell a story in the world of Arda that includes next to nothing of the events or characters Tolkien wrote about and it still FEEL like Tolkien. There are themes and elements that give a think its 'spirit' (for lack of better term). I'm not arguing here whether Rings of Power did that just arguing the premise. I think you can have a story set in Harad for example set in the second age where little is known and it still FEEL like Tolkien if you get my drift. To me, this did feel like Tolkien in those grand sweeping emotive ways. And you know, I just enjoyed the show as a piece of art by its own merits at the same time.

I didn't really see it as 'set-up'. I'm also not entirely sure what we even mean by that. Do we just mean it was the opening part of story and that it established events that will unfold after? Are we suggesting this arc isn't indicative of what we perceive will be the story that comes after as there have been major moments that change the course of the narrative? Isn't that...every story? Sorry, I'm a bit lost by what we mean. I guess I just experienced it as chapter one to our story. Well, I'd say more like the first arc. Which is what it was right? It may just be it's a story I'm interested in following and for others, that's when they'd put the book down? Is that a fair analogy?
 
Haerangil said:
Bladerunner was a great adaption that cut out almost everything and was not really faithful to the book...
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Was it an adaption or an "inspired by" story then? RoP is being marketed as Tolkien. As such we do not go in for the story itself but for Tolkien. Otherwise they would have teased the story in the teaser. And they did not.
 
Odola said:
Was it an adaption or an "inspired by" story then? RoP is being marketed as Tolkien. As such we do not go in for the story itself but for Tolkien. Otherwise they would have teased the story in the teaser. And they did not.
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Well, I'd say that's a marketing discussion which is slightly separate IMO.

'Inspired by'/'based on' whatever is still an adaptation. It's just a sliding scale of how close to the source material/real events an adaptation is.
 
It does all have some good. If next seasons SILMFILM will eventually move on to Turin, Hurin, Tuor and Earendil then it will be the year 2026/7 and TROP will have finished by season 5 when we get to the 2nd Age and can see what mistakes they made and how we could do it better...
 
Odola said:
not wholly conviced here - we are evaluating the series as any product - on the basis of what we have been promised in advance...
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I guess I'm arguing for it as a story in its own right. For me, marketing and trailers aren't handled by the same creative team and are products in themselves. There have been astonishing trailers for lackluster products and I can still appreciate the trailer as its own piece of art for example. That's maybe slightly by-the-by though
 
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