Celeborn’s Family

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
There has been the concern to avoid galad- in order not to bring SoC too close to Galadriels name...

I don't think Enelorn works as a name, it doesn't follow the eldarin pattern for female names.It does follow the pattern for male names, though it is not per se a masculine form.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Enelorniel = maiden between tree(s)? I don't really like that very much at all. Orneneliel? That's just getting silly now....

Yeah, I realize that many of the names that sound nice and have a good meaning...sound a lot like Celeborn or Galadriel! I figured if we kept the '-orn' part, the connection to Celeborn would be clear, without making it sound like the same name, but then they'd rhyme, so that might be even worse.

I know that earlier Faelivrin had suggested Evranin and Lindis as names of female Green Elves; any reason we shouldn't choose one of those as Celeborn's sister?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yeah, because i thought most people here want her to have a tree name.If not Evranin would be my first choice.. and then it could be Celeborns sister who actually will save Elwings life..

Enelorn would not work, Enelorneth, Enelornis, Enelorniel, Elenornil ... tnose should work i tbink.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
I've come to really like this snippet of a character that we've roughed out but not fully defined yet, so her name is important to me too. Help me with pronunciation - Evranin. Stress on the second syllable, right? Is it a short a RAN, or a long a RAIN?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
It would be great to be able to name her in Neo-Nandorin, if such a construction exists. But anyway.

I'd like to preserve the "silver+[plant]" naming scheme. Galadhon, Galathil, Celeborn, and Nimloth. We could use Galathil if we can't persuade the Hosts to let Celeborn have a brother who dies in Doriath -- I don't think it's a gendered name, unlike Galadhon which looks masculine to me. Eldarin nouns don't have grammatical gender, so there's nothing inherently masculine about -orn or -thil.

I'm not convinced that a woman necessarily needs her name to end in -wen, -iel, -rian, or other explicitly feminine words. Elenwe doesn't, and Evranin at least doesn't end in an obviously feminine ending.

If we want to avoid using Celeb- or Galadh-, we could name her Faenorn. (I tried to make my suggestions compatible with what very little I know of Nandorin. Don't know if I succeeded.)

It would be nice if Saeros and Celeborn's sister offered different viewpoints on the Kinslaying reveal, as they are our two representative Green Elves, now that Denethor is dead.
This is another reason why I wanted Celeborn to have family, so that we could use one of his relatives for the anti-Noldor sentiment among the Sindar after the Kinslaying reveal. Melian, Luthien, Celeborn, and Cirdan are all going to be pro-reconciliation. Beleg is going to be friendly towards Gwindor. I don't know about Mablung's reaction. But we should show that Thingol isn't the only Sinda who has a strong negative reaction to the Kinslaying.

And it would be great if that variety was encapsulated with Celeborn discussing his engagement to Galadriel with his family, after he Kinslaying reveal. In one conversation we could show a range of opinions, from Celeborn and probably his sister wanting reconciliation, to somebody else being strongly against the marriage and needing to be persuaded.

So far I haven't really seen feedback on this idea?
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Funny! I have D. Salos neo-Nandorin booklet here...

Silver - telf
of silver - telfin
Tree - galad, oron
silvan elf - lind
forest - ornar
wood -tôr
woman -nî
girl -gwind
daughter -seld
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Faen would be fene in NN.

Fenelind would be a name i'd like.Elm is "larm" in NN.

What else... Telflind, Telfinnî?
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Faenorn is looking awfully close to Fëanor, unfortunately.....

It's tough to use a very limited word list and then say, '... make the names sound different, but not too different...'

I do like elms, though! One of my favorite types of trees. And Treebeard looks vaguely elm-like (elms are rather ent-like trees), so the Green Elf-Ent association works there, too.

Enelalmas = Between elms :p Okay, okay, I'll put that idea aside!

'Silver elm' would be fine. Telfalm? Almtelf? Hmmmm, maybe something from the root MIZD would sound better. I know that meord is a noun, not an adjective, and is more of the 'wet' side than the 'grey' side of that word. But Meordalm sounds much nicer than Telfalm. Not sure how to get the Nandorin version of 'mith'. Almith sounds okay, but more like it should be a town in Massachusetts, not an elf in Ossiriand. :p

PS: I too like Fenelind and could live with that! The Green Elves call themselves Lindar/Lindi, correct? So, a nice echo. Also, three syllables makes it sound like it's in the same family as Celeborn (I don't like 5 syllable names very often!)

PPS: alm=elm in Nandorin is one of the words Tolkien did record, so I see no need to change it to a neo-Nandorin form (even if David Salo did create a much more extensive vocabulary to play with!)
Ardalambion's Nandorin word list: https://folk.uib.no/hnohf/nandorin.htm
Eldalmo's Nandorin words/names: https://www.eldamo.org/content/language-pages/lang-nan.html
https://www.eldamo.org/content/language-pages/lang-dan.html
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
True, iam mixing up nandorin and nn. Meord is fine rain according to my nandorin (not nn!) List...

Almedel, Enelel, Meordalmel... Telfinlind.

Nandorin is just a bit too harsh and germanic, its not as elegant as the smoother Sindarin or the Grandeurous Quenya.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Not sure if Feneoron wouldnt need a female -el ending to work as a proper female name.

Flower is luon or nîth in nn or loss... Telfinloss maybe?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Telfinloss is good. I don't know why any Elvish language would require special feminine endings to make a name for a woman. Elenwe and Meril have no female endings.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
...or Isilmë, for another feminine name without a particular feminine ending (an example from Numenor that we can't use for an elf born before the rising of the Moon, of course!) Hobbits think flower-names are feminine, and maybe elves do too? (Meril = Rose)

Telfalmni?

Mithloss?

(I promise I won't suggest we call her Mithluon! ;) )

Feneoron is better than Faenorn. Not sure I can pronounce it without tripping. Not important, though; the Game of Thrones showrunners mispronounce practically every character's name when they're discussing the show. You just hire a good dialogue coach to work with the actors and everything will sound great!
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
@Faelivrin true, i just said there are some patterns in naming.

Elenwe funnily is a good example for exceptions since -we usually is an ending we connect with ,males... but here is the one female character wirh that typical male ending in her name. -il IS an ending typically connected with females... Isilme is another good example, we have a male variant of the same name in tolkien and that is IsilmO.

I am no linguist, im not sure what exactly jrrts tnoughts on that were, i am just noticing some typical patterns in naming.


@ Mithluin

In NN mith becomes mest.. though i don't understand why it isnt Mid instead.. well Salo will know!

Telfalmni i like a lot! Mestloss is a very unfortunate connection ,) Feneoronel is ok too.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Disclaimer, I'm not a linguist either.

Quenya -wë is defined in the post-Etymologies linguistic texts as meaning roughly "somebody, person" so there's nothing specifically masculine about it. We just have fewer female examples because we have fewer named females, period.

The -il in Meril (Sindarin) is part of the word for "rose". I don't think there's enough evidence to say it's definitely a separate feminine suffix in this word. It's true that -il appears as a feminine suffix in odhril (vs. masculine odhron), but Galathil also ends in -il, as part of the word thil "silver".

-iel and -wen (Quenya wendë) are feminine endings, while -on and -ion are masculine. In Quenya -o is sometimes masculine and and -i are sometimes feminine, when creating words for persons. But somtimes Quenya -o just makes something animate instead of abstract. Most Sindarin words have no gendered ending that I know of.

Edit: Also in Quenya can be genderless (as in Quendë "Elf") and -i can be plural.
 
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MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Naturally, we aren't the first people to be interested in how to form elvish names ;)

Helge Fauskanger and Ales Bican have both derived a lot of Quenya names; I agree that Sindarin (and Nandorin!) are much harder.

https://folk.uib.no/hnohf/elfnam.htm
http://www.elvish.org/elm/names.html

In addition to the Sindarin names for elves Tolkien coined himself, there are the examples of the 'translations' of Sam's daughters' names in the King's letter. That is where we get Meril = Rose and Eirien = Daisy.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Just as a place to put this semi-related thought.

We've talked about how we're setting up the long game for Galadriel, to that moment where she turns down the Ring.

I haven't considered that we're also going to have to set up the long game for Celeborn's big moment - when, for a reason I've never really been able to resolve to my satisfaction, he stays behind in Midfle Earth at the end.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I'm quite certain that he left Middle-earth within a century and sailed to Eressea to be with his wife and daughter. Tolkien did say, I think in the Appendices, that he left Lothlorien for Greenwood, and then left Greenwood to live in Rivendell with his grandsons. But by the time Aragorn and Arwen died, Rivendell was also abandoned and all the High Elves had left. I don't think Tolkien intended Celeborn to be parted from Galadriel forever. On the other hand, he left the fate of Elrond's sons unresolved -- we get to decide for ourselves whether they chose to become Elves or Mortals, or one of each.
 
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