Celeborn’s Family

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Oh, and we can probably kill Nellas in the sack. I know some people want her to survive, but she doesn't have to.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Yeah, we need enough named characters left alive to kill some in each of:

1. Dwarven invasion of Doriath, after Thingol's death.
2. Second Kinslaying.
3. Third Kinslaying.

We need characters to actually fight in these battles, and we probably won't have Galadriel and Celeborn available for any of them.

So far, we have a grand total of 4 existing or planned characters available to die in all three of those devastating battles, combined. (Dior, Mablung, Nellas, Nimloth) That's not enough.

But beyond that, there's no harm in Galathil and Galadhon existing, or discussing Celeborn's marriage with him. There's just no reason not to include them.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
2. We have Celegorm, Caranthir, Curufin, Dior and Nimloth. Their sons are taken into the forest to starve.

3. Amrod and Amras are killed in the Third Kinslaying, along with Dirhaval. Andvir (Androg's son) dies around this time presumably of old age.

Mablung is killed in either the Invasion of Doriath or the Third Kinslaying (depending on the source).

I have an idea of Galathil or Galadhon (which one is male?) holding off one of Feanor's sons (possibly Curufin) so the refugees can escape. Some great battles have someone holding off the forces of (evil) so the rest can escape: Hurin vs Morgoth's armies in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, Ecthelion and Glorfindel (separately) in the Fall of Gondolin, Gandalf vs Durin's Bane.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I am talking about victims. If nobody is killed on the losing side, it'll look like they lost a game of paintball. If only one victim is killed, it'll look like the most minor of minor skirmishes. Why's everyone so upset that the Feanorians killed just one guy? How is Doriath so destroyed they can never rebuild, when only 2-3 people ever died? That's a bad way to write war stories.

Dior's sons are not killed in battle. And neither is Thingol.

Dirhaval and Andvir are not planned to exist in this project, and if the goal is to avoid introducing any new characters, they won't be included. This is why we need to be willing to introduce new characters sometimes.


Seriously, Galathil and Galadhon would not cause any actual, material harm to this project.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I am talking about victims. If nobody is killed on the losing side, it'll look like they lost a game of paintball.

Dior's sons are not killed in battle. And neither is Thingol.

Dirhaval and Andvir are not planned to exist in this project, and if the goal is to avoid introducing any new characters, they won't be included. This is why we need to be willing to introduce new characters sometimes!


Seriously, I'm still waiting for somebody to mention what actual, material harm Galathil and Galadhon would cause this project, why it would be so awful to include them.
I'm just rattling off a list of who I can name who was killed in general in these... battles? Sacks? I can't think of the right terminology.

I think Dirhaval and Andvir should be in the project. The story of The Children of Hurin has to be written down somehow, it has to be known. Perhaps Maglor takes the manuscript from Dirhaval during the Third Kinslaying and gives it to Elrond before he and Maedhros try to steal the Silmarils?
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I agree Dirhaval and Andvir should be in the story. And so should Galathil and Galadhon. Telling the Silmarillion without introducing any new characters is completely untenable. Even Nellas would have to be a new character!
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I agree Dirhaval and Andvir should be in the story. And so should Galathil and Galadhon. Telling the Silmarillion without introducing any new characters is completely untenable. Even Nellas would have to be a new character!
Why do the Hosts insist on not introducing new characters?

Speaking of which, how do we introduce characters like Nellas and Voronwe? Is Voronwe a background character when Aredhel returns to Gondolin?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I am talking about victims. If nobody is killed on the losing side, it'll look like they lost a game of paintball. If only one victim is killed, it'll look like the most minor of minor skirmishes. Why's everyone so upset that the Feanorians killed just one guy? How is Doriath so destroyed they can never rebuild, when only 2-3 people ever died? That's a bad way to write war stories.

Dior's sons are not killed in battle. And neither is Thingol.

Dirhaval and Andvir are not planned to exist in this project, and if the goal is to avoid introducing any new characters, they won't be included. This is why we need to be willing to introduce new characters sometimes.


Seriously, Galathil and Galadhon would not cause any actual, material harm to this project.
Perhaps it's the sheer numbers of people killed in Doriath? Do they run on patrilineal primogeniture and since there are no males remaining in Thingol's family, the line (with the exception of Elwing) is considered extinguished from a political point of view, but not a total point of view due to prophecy? Was Luthien ever considered Thingol's heir?

Thingol is a special case. His death greatly affects Melian, and her grief causes her power to disappear from Neldoreth and Region, Esgalduin speaks with a different voice, and Doriath lies open to its enemies.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I don't know why the Hosts oppose introducing new characters. I don't understand it.

Certainly lots of people are killed in Doriath in the books, and that's logically the reason the kingdom is destroyed. But in SilmFilm if they're nameless, faceless redshirts, they're never mentioned in the script, and nobody ever mourns them, then they don't matter. The writers don't care about them, so why should the reader/audience? Nobody mourns for a statistic. There won't even be a radio or newspaper announcing this statistic. Their deaths won't even be in the story.

Thingol is not killed in battle. He's assassinated before the battle starts. Then afterwards, there is a battle. Who actually dies in that battle? The current plan is nobody dies in battle. That's not war, it's just a paintball game.



And I realized this: Who is slain during the Second Kinslaying battle?

3 Sons of Feanor.
1 prince of Doriath.
Elwing keeps the Silmaril.

Doriath: 4
Feanorians: 1
Now it looks like the Feanorians lost the battle.

So, we need to introduce Nellas as a character (eventually, not in Season 4) and save her and at least 1 other character to be killed in the 2nd Kinslaying battle itself. And so, who will be killed in the first fall of Doriath battle? The answer is Celeborn's family, and they need to exist in Season 4 so they can interact with Celeborn about and at his wedding.


This is my suggestion for people slain in battle:
First Fall of Doriath: Galadhon and Galathil slain. Maybe Celeborn's mom too.
Second Kinslaying: Dior, Nellas, and Guilin slain. Maybe Galathil's wife too.
Third Kinslaying: Nimloth, Mablung, and Dirhaval slain. Maybe Enerdhil and/or Andvir, if possible

Even then Guilin, Dirhaval, Enerdhil, Andvir, and Galathil's wife are likely to be extremely minor characters at best, if the Hosts let us include them at all.
 
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amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Was Luthien ever considered Thingol's heir?
This is one of those ways where Elves are different.

"One day, daughter, when I'm gone, all of this will be yours."

What a nonsensical thing for an Elf to say. Especially during the peaceful early days between "the War to Start All Wars" and the arrival of the Enemy in the north of Middle Earth. It wouldn't even occur to them. Like, they would need to invent a word for "heir" later on in the timeline once more people start to croak with some regularity.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I don't know why the Hosts oppose introducing new characters. I don't understand it.

Certainly lots of people are killed in Doriath in the books, and that's logically the reason the kingdom is destroyed. But in SilmFilm if they're nameless, faceless redshirts, they're never mentioned in the script, and nobody ever mourns them, then they don't matter. The writers don't care about them, so why should the reader/audience? Nobody mourns for a statistic. There won't even be a radio or newspaper announcing this statistic. Their deaths won't even be in the story.

Thingol is not killed in battle. He's assassinated before the battle starts. Then afterwards, there is a battle. Who actually dies in that battle? The current plan is nobody dies in battle. That's not war, it's just a paintball game.



And I realized this: Who is slain during the Second Kinslaying battle?

3 Sons of Feanor.
1 prince of Doriath.
Elwing keeps the Silmaril.

Doriath: 4
Feanorians: 1
Now it looks like the Feanorians lost the battle.

So, we need to introduce Nellas as a character (eventually, not in Season 4) and save her and at least 1 other character to be killed in the 2nd Kinslaying battle itself. And so, who will be killed in the first fall of Doriath battle? The answer is Celeborn's family, and they need to exist in Season 4 so they can interact with Celeborn about and at his wedding.


This is my suggestion for people slain in battle:
First Fall of Doriath: Galadhon and Galathil slain. Maybe Celeborn's mom too.
Second Kinslaying: Dior, Nellas, and Guilin slain. Maybe Galthil's wife too.
Third Kinslaying: Nimloth, Mablung, and Dirhaval slain. Maybe Enerdhil and/or Andvir, if possible

Even then Guilin, Dirhaval, Enerdhil, Andvir, and Galathil's wife are likely to be extremely minor characters at best, if the Hosts let us include them at all.
Nimloth was killed in the Second Kinslaying.
http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nimloth_of_Doriath
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
That is another thing that Christopher Tolkien made up and changed without any basis in any text. JRR Tolkien explicitly said Nimloth survived the 2nd Kinslaying and brought Elwing to the Havens. Just like Mablung. (And I don't trust any website over the books, anyway.)

The War of the Jewels said:
The Lady Lindis escaped with Elwing, and came hardly to Ossir, with the Necklace and the Jewel. Thence hearing the rumour she fled to the Havens of Sirion.
Lindis = another name of Nimloth in the genealogies. There's no text by JRRT that says she died at Doriath, as far as I know.

But even if we kill her in the Second Kinslaying instead of Guilin, we still need people to die when the Dwarves invade Doriath. I don't want to depict a fake-looking 'battle' in which absolutely nobody at all is killed, and then pretending anyone cares about the outcome. I'm also opposed to showing just one person die, and pretending it's a "battle."
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
This is one of those ways where Elves are different.

"One day, daughter, when I'm gone, all of this will be yours."

What a nonsensical thing for an Elf to say. Especially during the peaceful early days between "the War to Start All Wars" and the arrival of the Enemy in the north of Middle Earth. It wouldn't even occur to them. Like, they would need to invent a word for "heir" later on in the timeline once more people start to croak with some regularity.
More like "successor", similar to how Finrod cedes the kingship of Nargothrond to Orodreth in Beren and Luthien.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I don't know why the Hosts oppose introducing new characters. I don't understand it.

Certainly lots of people are killed in Doriath in the books, and that's logically the reason the kingdom is destroyed. But in SilmFilm if they're nameless, faceless redshirts, they're never mentioned in the script, and nobody ever mourns them, then they don't matter. The writers don't care about them, so why should the reader/audience? Nobody mourns for a statistic. There won't even be a radio or newspaper announcing this statistic. Their deaths won't even be in the story.

Thingol is not killed in battle. He's assassinated before the battle starts. Then afterwards, there is a battle. Who actually dies in that battle? The current plan is nobody dies in battle. That's not war, it's just a paintball game.



And I realized this: Who is slain during the Second Kinslaying battle?

3 Sons of Feanor.
1 prince of Doriath.
Elwing keeps the Silmaril.

Doriath: 4
Feanorians: 1
Now it looks like the Feanorians lost the battle.

So, we need to introduce Nellas as a character (eventually, not in Season 4) and save her and at least 1 other character to be killed in the 2nd Kinslaying battle itself. And so, who will be killed in the first fall of Doriath battle? The answer is Celeborn's family, and they need to exist in Season 4 so they can interact with Celeborn about and at his wedding.


This is my suggestion for people slain in battle:
First Fall of Doriath: Galadhon and Galathil slain. Maybe Celeborn's mom too.
Second Kinslaying: Dior, Nellas, and Guilin slain. Maybe Galathil's wife too.
Third Kinslaying: Nimloth, Mablung, and Dirhaval slain. Maybe Enerdhil and/or Andvir, if possible

Even then Guilin, Dirhaval, Enerdhil, Andvir, and Galathil's wife are likely to be extremely minor characters at best, if the Hosts let us include them at all.
The first Fall of Doriath is meant to show how screwed Doriath is without Melian. Before she left for Valinor, no invading armies were able to enter. Now, she's gone and Doriath is open to opposing armies. Plus, they have no leader.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
The loss of the Girdle doesn't matter if nobody dies afterwards! Nobody cares about armies that never kill anyone. Doriath is obviously NOT screwed without Melian, not even close, because nothing bad happens after she leaves. Some Dwarves wander around, punch somebody, and then wander off without doing any harm whatsoever.


I recognize that you don't agree that battles should kill any characters whatsoever. And maybe everybody on this board agrees with you. But please stop dismissing my concerns out of hand. It is very hurtful. Even if I'm the only person who cares about this, it doesn't mean I deserve to be stomped on mercilessly.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The loss of the Girdle doesn't matter if nobody dies afterwards! Nobody cares about armies that never kill anyone! Nobody needed Melian at all, because nobody ever dies after she leaves!


I recognize that you don't agree that battles should involve any death whatsoever. And everybody on this board agrees with you, apparently. But please stop dismissing my concerns out of hand as worthless and idiotic bullshit. It is extremely hurtful and cruel. Just because I'm the only person who cares about this, doesn't mean I deserve to be stomped on mercilessly.
I’m not saying that armies don’t kill and people don’t die, I’m just noting how significant the first Sack of Doriath is even without significant deaths. We could go along the Published Silmarillion route where Mablung is killed and the Silmaril taken. And I’m not trying to be dismissive or stomp on anyone.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
What do we know about her so far? Did we already collect suggestions for possible names?

Celeblóriel
Celebwen
Galadwen
Celebrethil
Celeblalwen
Celebereth
Mithrian
Celebrian (lol)
Celefonil
Celebren
Celebess
Celebiel
Celebriel
Celeneth
Celegwin
Celenir
Celegwion
Celebuin
Celebnain

I guess she is a silvan/Nando, a tall silver-haired member of the old noble clan...
her character traits are? Like what?
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
I like Galadwen, even if it is a bit generic. A challenge not to make her name start with Celeb- or Galad-, though; we should probably make the name not sound too much like Celeborn and Galadriel. I suppose we could just use the name Galathil for Celeborn's sister? I'm not sure how important it is to keep the 'silver tree' meaning of the name for her; probably we'd give her silver hair to show her relation to Celeborn, but we wouldn't have to. Maybe she could be a 'green tree'? In Amharic, 'lemlem' means 'very green, lush, fertile' and is also a girl's name. If we do wind up using Galathil as a name for Celeborn's brother, then the sister could be the 'middle child' between them, and elves having foresight, she could have been given a name reflecting that.
enel "in the middle, between". The sole known Nandorin preposition, this form was supposedly recorded by the Loremasters (VT47:39). It is derived from a variant of the root ÉNED- "centre" (LR:356), since "d and l interchanged frequently in Common Eldarin" (VT47:39).​

So, Enelorn = middle tree?​

What we know about her so far is that she is a Green Elf in Ossiriand. The Green Elves have no leader after the death of Denethor, but she will be a 'spokesperson' for the audience to understand the Green Elf perspective. She will (eventually) align herself with Oropher (probably not by marrying him, but just joining his following), and wind up in Mirkwood in the 3rd Age. Late-Third-Age-Celeborn's-Sister will be a voice for reconciliation and new beginnings. She...may not have those views in the First Age, hard to say yet.

We will need to make a court in Menegroth, and certainly we can start developing background characters. For now, we have Thingol, Melian, Celeborn, Mablung, Beleg, Daeron, Lúthien, and Saeros. I suspect that Annael will be one of Círdan's people, but depending on how he is introduced, he could originally be from Doriath as well (TBD). We'll spend more time in Doriath in the Beren and Lúthien season (6) and the Túrin season (where we will add Nellas). We should have Celeborn's family sorted out this season, but we would have the opportunity to focus on some background characters in later seasons as we 'replace' our main cast in Doriath. The only reason we introduced Saeros so early was to establish how he got to Doriath; now that we have him, we can make use of him, and use him to introduce others as time goes on. It would be nice if Saeros and Celeborn's sister offered different viewpoints on the Kinslaying reveal, as they are our two representative Green Elves, now that Denethor is dead.
 
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