Counterpoint to LotR?

I know that the weekly discussions of the text often refers to how things were handled in the earlier drafts of the story in the History of Middle Earth or in the Peter Jackson films as a reference or 'counterpoint' examples of how Tolkien might have otherwise told his story.

I was wondering if any of you are familiar with the controversial novel "The Last Ringbearer", by Kirill Yeskov.
Have you read it? Do you regard it as a credible conversational counterweight to Tolkien's real story, or as 'fake' literature that doesn't deserve any serious time or discussion (e.g. in a Mythgard forum)?

I haven't read all of it, but from what I've read, it's clear that Yeskov's narrative does not follow the same path as tLotR, so it might not be as easy to match up the story lines (much of the narrative of TLR takes place in the aftermath of the events of tLotR) and compare them but I'm interested in the opinions of this group on this apocryphal version of events.

I do note that there may be concerns for the copyright issues/potential for the objections of the Tolkien estate put it out of scope? To counter this, the author has published free version in English. I was able to find a downloadable version online. It's fairly easy to find in pdf format for those who are interested.
 
Well i have read it, but i have to say that , despite liking the idea of reading the story from the other perspective, i did not really enjoy it very much. It just wasn't very entertaining literature...
 
The small amount of it that I could bear to read suggested that it is about as connected to the original as Shadow of Mordor…I would be happy to be corrected but I suspect it won't happen :(
 
No... it was more related to Warcraft or Earth Dawn i think. The Elves and Gandalf ae machiavellian manipulstors while the Orcs and Variags are noble hearted Warriors...

sadly it wasn#t very well written.
 
Check out The Sundering duology. It is very deliberately an echo of Tolkien's works, and presents compelling, biased viewpoints from the other side. Not so much "what if evil is right?" as "can anyone really be right when it comes to essentially eternal war with atrocities on both sides?" and anyway, "what if the dark lord is right to feel aggrieved, because he mostly meant well back when he broke the world, and has only ever gone to war to preserve himself and the not-orcs who are pledged to him (and by whom he's done right); are the good guy immortal gods, wizards, and elves so concerned with those they boss about to fulfill their schemes?" Now, there's a prophecy that, if fulfilled, will destroy Satoris (the dark lord), and you mostly follow his three immortal servants as they try to prevent it, focusing on their own past traumas, the ways in which the world did evil to them first--even as they do evil now.

Oh, and the most prominent of those three--our principal protagonist, Tanaros Blacksword--is maybe kinda accidentally falling into a romance with an elf maiden of great import. It feels more organic than that sounds. (And it's on the back of the book, so that's not a spoiler.)
 
... Do you regard it as a credible conversational counterweight to Tolkien's real story, or as 'fake' literature that doesn't deserve any serious time or discussion (e.g. in a Mythgard forum)? ...

Welllll… since you asked that question directly, I will say that I am not at all interested in those who appear to be attempting to cash in on Tolkien's publicity by raising drama where there really is none. There is no subject in human experience that you can't come up with some silly controversy about. In this, the Age of the Troll, it has become an art form! :)
 
I was wondering if any of you are familiar with the controversial novel "The Last Ringbearer", by Kirill Yeskov.
Have you read it? Do you regard it as a credible conversational counterweight to Tolkien's real story, or as 'fake' literature that doesn't deserve any serious time or discussion (e.g. in a Mythgard forum)?
Haven't read it - might have heard about it, unless that's another work I'm thinking about. I don't read much in pdf format, I'm not good at reading long stretches off the computer.

So I can't speak to the content of the novel. However, since Tolkien was so enamored with Medieval literature and its sensibilities, and Corey is fond of reminding us that in Medieval times, "fanfiction" and "fake literature" weren't concepts that would make any sense, I think we should approach it on its own merits. It may, of course be *bad* literature, in which case, sure, I think we can comfortably ignore it.
Welllll… since you asked that question directly, I will say that I am not at all interested in those who appear to be attempting to cash in on Tolkien's publicity by raising drama where there really is none. There is no subject in human experience that you can't come up with some silly controversy about. In this, the Age of the Troll, it has become an art form! :)
This may be so, but I've also seen some legitimate, thoughtful criticism of Tolkien's works. There's some points where I agree with him, and other points where I very much disagree, and I think there's nothing inherently wrong with exploring that, in either fiction or nonfiction.

Sci-fi author David Brin - someone with whom I also have points of agreement and disagreement - has accused Tolkien of elitism, and imagines a perspective-flipped scenario in which Sauron is the good guy, leading a multiracial rebellion against the tyranny of the Elves and their human servants. Complete balderdash in Tolkien's world, of course, but whether or not you agree with Brin's politics, I think as a thought experiment it could be potentially interesting to read a story of that kind in comparison and contrast to The Lord of the Rings. Again, the key point as far as I'm concerned whether the writing is any good.

Sounds like folks here don't think much of the writing in The Last Ringbearer, although a bad translation can do a lot to undermine an otherwise good book. Dunno if that's what happened in this case.

@Beech27 I read a review of the Sundering duology, or at least the first book, several years ago. It was ... pretty scathing. According to the review, the book aspired to grapple with complex issues and moral gray areas and the like, but botched the execution, introduced a lot of horrible implications without really addressing them, and the characters' actions were often nonsensical. I remember the review being a fun read, but I'll probably give the books themselves a pass.
 
Wouldn't it be more entertaining to read from the perspective of the orcs or men of darkness and yet still respect the original world, cosmology and background? There is one book where the main protagonist is an evil tyrant who rules the known universe, a book which i really enjoyed because i like the scenario of" what would you do if you were an almost immortal, almost all-knowing higher being?"

That novel is frank herberts " god emperor of dune".
 
I wandered away from the series after Children of Dune several years ago, and still haven't given it a proper revisit. But I've heard the basic outline of God Emperor and also some highlights from the book, and it sounds like interesting stuff. Maybe I'll check that out someday.
 
Glen Cook's 'The Black Company,' is a fantasy novel that offers a perspective from inside the 'bad guy' camp. I suspect that this is where our fellow LotR Explorer, Croaker, found a screen name. I didn't read the follow-up novels in the series but did enjoy the alternate perspective.
 
Glen Cook's 'The Black Company,' is a fantasy novel that offers a perspective from inside the 'bad guy' camp.
I haven't read that one, though I've heard of it before.
If you can stand the depiction of cannibal Hobbits and honorable Orcs with lots of explicit violence (and if I remember correctly, rape) you might like the turned-upside-down world of Mary Gentle's Grunts.
Can't say that I did, though.
 
I'm a big fan of The Black Company series -well, most of it- which is about a storied company of mercenaries who aren't very nice chronicled by the company physician. The principle characters suffer a crisis of conscience after taking the commission of someone they come to think of as truly evil. Well written and fascinating characters and good world building. The physician admits that he sanitizes some of what his "brothers" do because he cares about them and doesn't want the readers to think of them as barbarians and thugs, even though a lot of them are.
 
I think that derivative works are fanfiction...but I do not see any reason to avoid references to fanfiction as counterpoints or as part of a scholarly discussion.

Sure, most fanfiction is bad or silly or pornographic. Many of the writers are novices and it is probably an exercise in frustration to read their work. But...not all. Some Tolkien fanfiction is *amazing*, and as such it offers new perspectives on the books that one might not have considered before. A lot of fanfiction writers have spent time thinking through aspects of the imaginary worlds they 'play' in, so you can have quite interesting scholarly discussions that way!

So, basically, if you are familiar with a work, and something about it strikes you as an interesting counterpoint or alternative version to the 'real' story...go ahead and bring it up! You may have to explain your reference, as you cannot assume others are familiar with it, but it's not 'off limits', I don't think.
 
I like fanfiction which sheds a light on characters scarcely mentioned or only alluded to in the legendarium, in fact i collect references to such "ghosts", but i enjoy little of what i read... with a few exceptions and those are mostly humoristic takes on the legendarium, rather than counterpoints to lotr.

Maybe one day i'll write fanfic myself if i ever find the time for it, my main characters would be orcs , and they would be nasty.

Fanfic i did like?

I liked "smeagol misses his family..."
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/9208890/1/Smeagol-Misses-his-family

I did like " to rule them all..."

https://www.fanfiction.net/s/1676513/1/To-Rule-Them-All

I did like "the fellowship of evil"
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/12815580/1/The-Fellowship-of-Evil

What about a fanfic threat actually?
 
Maybe one day i'll write fanfic myself if i ever find the time for it
Years ago, I began a Tolkien fanfic with steampunk Numenorians featuring Ar-Pharazôn and Amandil. Maybe I'll get back to it some day. Opening scene:

Ar-Pharazôn’s Last Battle

Ensign Kim opened his eyes a crack and instantly blenched them closed again. He wished he could close his ears, too, against the tearing and grinding noises that rolled and pitched and shuddered through him. Through him and through the ship, the Aglarrâma, grand flagship of the fleet, tossing and, he could swear, groaning with some sort of shiply pain of its own. What could have happened?

He tried opening his eyes again, but things were no better. Dim, flickering lights from the instrument panels barely penetrated a film over his eyes that felt like the gritty accumulation of a thousand years of sleep. He raised his head a little from the cold deck: yes, he really was still on the Bridge, strange as it had become. Other crumpled forms were starting to moan and shift.

“Status report!” The grunted words barely seemed like speech, but a sense of duty struggled with the pain and he rolled over and tried to stand. On the second try he made it into a chair – his familiar chair – and promptly slumped forward onto the console as the blackness returned and his head swam. A pulsing red lamp like the gush and surge of arterial blood from a fatal wound flickered in his left eye.

Status did not look good.​
 
I whole-heartedly second Fiondil's work!!!

He was the inspiration (and beta) for my Maedhros-in-Mandos story. He helped me with all the Quenya I used in that.

I would say that his work is very gentle and focused on healing. So, it has some of the same wholesome goodness that you find in Tolkien writing about hobbits, even though his characters tend to be elves (and Valar). Like Lord of the Rings, it leaves you with a strong feeling of hope despite describing dark circumstances.


For anyone interested in Silmarillion fanfic, I can recommend the Silmarillion Writers' Guild as a great archive:
http://www.silmarillionwritersguild.org/archive/home/index.php
Stories have ratings on them there, so you don't have to click on anything you don't want to read.


The only time I've tried writing from the villain's perspective in Tolkien fanfic was this short piece:
Rebuffed
 
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