Dies Irae

Discussion in 'Season 3' started by Ange1e4e5, Mar 30, 2017.

  1. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Active Member

    I think we should hear some of that, particularly during the Oath of Feanor scene, a scene that would be full of grim resolve. In particular, I had the Burning Homestead scene from Star Wars: A New Hope in mind.
     
  2. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I completely agree that Dies Irae should find a place somewhere in our score! A musical theme like this does its job so well because it is already quite familiar to the audience...but can be introduced in new ways. The music for the Oath and the music for the Kinslaying should be strongly tied, and this may be one way of doing that.



    Alternate compilation:


    Of course, we should probably be mindful of what Howard Shore has already done with this theme, associating it strongly with the Ring.

    (I am sure my neighbors love me for playing the Dies Irae over and over at 1 AM.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
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  3. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I am *not* going to offer to translate the entire thing into Quenya, but I will offer this modest starting point. [Did Tolkien ever translate this himself? That would make it a lot easier!]

    Dies iræ, dies illa, dies tribulationis et angustiæ, dies calamitatis et miseriæ, dies tenebrarum et caliginis, dies nebulæ et turbinis, dies tubæ et clangoris super civitates munitas et super angulos excelsos. (Which is the Latin Vulgate version of Zephaniah 1:15-16)
    That day is a day of wrath, a day of tribulation and distress, a day of calamity and misery, a day of darkness and obscurity, a day of clouds and whirlwinds, a day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high bulwarks. (Being the Douay–Rheims Bible translation of the same passage)

    this day = síra (hyárë - archaic)
    day = aurë (particularly a reference to sunlight)
    upon the day = aurenna
    last day of the year = quantien
    last day of the century = haranyë

    THAT (1) (demonstrative): tana (an adjectival word, VT49:11; in one version of the language also tanya, as in tanya wendë "that maiden", MC:215-16). Also yana with meaning “the former” (e.g. *loa yana “that year” referring to a former year). Adj. OF THAT SORT taitë; IN THAT WAY tanen; THAT MATTER tama. Also see THIS regarding the word talumë “at this [or, that] time”.

    wrath = rúsë (Þ), ormë (wrath, haste, violence, rushing)

    tribulation = ???
    punishment = paimë

    distress = ???
    fear = caurë

    calamity = ???
    horror = norto

    misery = angayassë

    darkness = lómë (night, darkness), mórë (darkness, blacknesss), huinë (darkness, shadow)

    obscurity = mordo (shadow, stain, smear, dimness)

    clouds = fanyar (white clouds), lumbor (dark lowering clouds)

    whirlwinds = ??? hwinya- (swirl, gyrate); hwindë (whirlpool); wanwavoitë (windy); vista (= air as substance)

    trumpet = romba (horn, trumpet)

    alarm = róma(trumpet-sound)

    against = The allative case in -nna

    fenced = peler (fenced field), Pelóri (defensive heights)

    city = osto (town with wall round); ossa (wall with moat)

    high bulwarks = ??? oromardi (lofty halls, high-halls)
     
  4. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Síra rúsëo, tana aurë,
    This day of wrath, that day,

    or

    Aurë rúsëo, sana aurë,
    Day of wrath, that day,

    I am having difficulty maintaining the very distinctive syllables of dies irae, which I would imagine is important in any translation. You can't just sing 'the day of wrath' the way you sing 'Dies irae'! But to get that 'of' in there, I'm using genitive case, and that slips an 'o' onto wrath, messing everything up. There is almost definitely a way around that, so I'm going to try again....

    Aurë rúsëo, aurenna,
    (The) Day of Wrath, upon the day,

    Aurë rúsëva, aurenna,
    Wrath's Day, upon the day,

    Rúsë aurë, tana aurë,
    Wrath-day, that day,
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2017
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  5. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Here are some of the pieces Phillip has already done that will be important to use in the Oath of Fëanor scene:

     
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  6. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    And while we are at it, we should probably translate the Oath of Fëanor itself into Quenya.

    Might as well use this as a starting point, but by no means do I consider this version set in stone:

    Vanda Feanáró Nossëo

    Nai kotumo ar nilmo, kalima Vala

    thauza ar poika, Moringothonna,

    Elda ar Maiya ar Apanóna,

    Endóressë Atan sin únóna,

    ilar thanyë, ilar melmë, ilar malkazon sammë,

    osta ilar harwë, lau Ambar tana,

    só-thauruvá Fëanárollo, ar Fëanáró nossello,

    iman askalyá ar charyá, ar mi kambë mapá,

    herá hirala ar haiya hatá

    Silmarillë. Sí vandalmë ilyai:

    unqualé son antávalme mennai Aurë-mettá,

    qualmé ten' Ambar-mettá! Quettalman lasta,

    Eru Ilúvatar! Oiyámórenna

    mé-quetamartya íre queluvá tyardalma.

    Ainorontessë tirtassë lasta

    ar lma-vandá enyalaz, Varda Manwë!

    Source: Milan Rezac http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/mrezac.htm

    It sounds like this:



    An alternative translation of a portion of it can be found here:
    https://quenya101.com/2014/07/15/oath-of-feanor-in-quenya/

    Lá axan, lá melmë, lá lár maciliva,
    Caurë hya raxë, lá mandë imma
    Varyuva quén Fëanáronna, ar nossenna Fëanáro,
    Aiquen nurta hya hosta, hya massë mapa,
    Hiriessë harya hya háya hatë
    Silmaril. Sina haryalmë ilyë vanda…
    Qualmë antuvalmë quén nó metta aureva,
    Nwalma tenna Ambar-metta!
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2017
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  7. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I will admit that I am tone deaf (especially when it comes to voices), so I'm not the best person to make musical decisions. Like...what key would we want this in? Here's some options, using all the instruments I have available to me ;)

    Various tin flutes and reed flutes:

    https://clyp.it/myongsvs

    https://clyp.it/iw3xar5v

    https://clyp.it/lhzr5tt2

    https://clyp.it/drhet05z

    https://clyp.it/cksckbuf

    https://clyp.it/p4sd2djs

    I have a 10-string lyre, but it's almost definitely out of tune. More significantly, when it's in tune, it has a G# rather than a G natural and a low D, so....I didn't really manage to transpose this tune correctly.

    https://clyp.it/ytyijcto

    https://clyp.it/va0uft01

    My attempts at getting an online piano keyboard to play have not been overly successful.

    https://clyp.it/le4je443

    https://clyp.it/mc2eqp0i

    Chant music available here:

    (If I am reading this correctly, the opening phrase is: F-E-F-D-E-C-D-D, with the F being the highest note)
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
  8. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Oh boy, Quenya translation is not easy. My goal is to match the syllables of the Latin chant, so that an arrangement of these lyrics will fit the 'Dies Irae'. So I'm breaking the lines up in sections (mostly of 8 syllables) to help with that. Luckily, chanting sometimes draws out words so you can fudge a bit. I am not sure how optional 'and' is in Quenya poetry, so.... Oh, and there has been no attempt to get the accents in the right place; this is a first draft.


    Aurë rúsëo, aurenna,
    (The) Day of Wrath, upon the day,

    Aurë paimëo [ar] caurëo,
    a day of punishment [and] of fear,

    Norto ar angayassëo,
    (a day) of horror and misery,

    Aurë lomëo ar mordo,
    a day of darkness and (of) dimness,

    Lumboro [ar] vaiwo hwinyala,
    (a day) of dark clouds [and] of swirling wind,

    Aurë rombaron [ar] rómaron
    A day of horns [and] of trumpet blasts

    Ostorinna [ar] pélorinna.
    against the walled cities, [and] against the fenced heights.


    Music like the 'Symphonie Fantastique' is more varied than the chant with just 8 syllable lines, so this would have to be modified based on what we're using as a base. But I feel it would fit well with the 'Doom' theme - it has bells! :p

    From 3-5 min in this video (as well as 7:55-8:15):



    Now, Phil's "Doom" piece has a lot of triplets in it, rather than 4-syllable stuff. So perhaps the 9-syllable lines can be 3 triplets. That can be interspersed with the distinctive 8 notes of the opening of the Dies Irae? [Obviously, the vocabulary I am using to express myself makes it clear that composing music is not a thing I....do.] "The Fall" is more 5-syllable phrases, I think, and quiet/reflective, so I'm not sure I would want that to be mixed with the Dies Irae stuff, but perhaps someone cleverer than I can put this all together and make something of it.

    Personally, I would like to start with some quieter music (no chant)...maybe 'the Fall'?, and then use the Dies Irae (either the chant or the Symphonie Fantastique or some other version) to start the chant, and then switch to the 'Doom' music to finish out the chanting, and finally switch to the Oath of Fëanor. Which is a lot of music, and probably doesn't actually work as one continuous scene at all, but, well, good scores blend a lot of different elements. I mean, we'll be the only ones chanting Zephaniah 1:15-16 in Quenya! Now if I can just figure out the elf-Latin equivalent of 'saecula saeculorum'...
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
  9. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    For the Oath, I very much would like 'Fëanor's kin' to really be 'the Sons of Fëanor.' That is how they are collectively known, and that is who takes the Oath (Nerdanel, Celebrimbor, any random wives present - they are *not* involved in this oath-taking!) In Sindarin, that's easy: Fëanoriónath = the Sons of Fëanor (collectively).
    In Quenya, I'm not sure.
    yondo = son, so...Yondor Fëanáron? Yondor Fëanárova? Yondor Fëanárollo? Yondor Fëanáronen? No idea what case to use to indicate fatherhood. Genitive? Possessive? Allative? Instrumental? Or just Fëanároyondor?

    Starting with Quenya that Tolkien wrote:

    hildinyar = my heirs

    tenn' Ambar-metta! = until world's ending!

    vanimálion nostari = parents of fair children, or begetters of fair ones

    Nai tiruvantes i hárar mahalmassen mi Númen ar i Eru i or ilyë mahalmar eä tennoio. = "may they keep it, the ones who are sitting upon thrones in the West and the One who is above all thrones for ever."

    Vanda sina = this oath

    Ah, got it!
    Híni Ilúvataro “Children of Ilúvatar” Tolkien used the genitive to indicate the relationship between father and sons. So "Sons of Fëanor" would be Yondor Fëanáro. Yondi Fëanáro?

    Except, shoot, the Litany of Loreto (1950s Quenya) uses 'Eruion' for "Son of God," specifically preferring this to a phrase starting 'Yón-'. So perhaps Fëanároioni? That looks ridiculous. You can't really use a patronymic collectively.

    anon (post-LotR) is another possible way of saying 'son' in Quenya, and is later than yondo (which goes back to the 'Gnomish' stuff). But I'm not sure it 'stuck'? Anoni Fëanáro?


    I suppose we should use the version of the Oath found in Morgoth's Ring?

    "Be he foe or friend, be he foul or clean,
    brood of Morgoth or bright Vala,
    Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,
    Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,
    neither law, nor love, nor league of swords,
    dread nor danger, not Doom itself,
    shall defend him from Fëanor, and Fëanor's kin,
    whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh,
    finding keepeth or afar casteth
    a Silmaril. This swear we all:
    death we will deal him ere Day's ending,
    woe unto world's end! Our word hear thou,
    Eru Allfather! To the everlasting
    Darkness doom us if our deed faileth.
    On the holy mountain hear in witness
    and our vow remember, Manwë and Varda!"


    Alternatively, there is the Lay of Leithian version:

    "Be he friend or foe or seed defiled
    of Morgoth Bauglir, or mortal child
    that in after days on earth shall dwell,
    no law, nor love, nor league of hell,
    not might of Gods, not moveless fate
    shall him defend from wrath and hate
    of Fëanor's sons, who takes or steals
    or finding keeps the Silmarils,
    the thrice-enchanted globes of light
    that shine until the final night."

    or as Celegorm later recites it:

    "Be he friend or foe or demon wild
    of Morgoth, Elf, or mortal child,
    or any that here on earth may dwell,
    no law, nor love, nor league of hell,
    no might of Gods, no binding spell,
    shall him defend from hatred fell
    of Fëanor's sons, whoso take or steal
    or finding keep a Silmaril.
    Those we alone do claim by right,
    our thrice-enchanted jewels bright."

    Obviously, a lot of concessions to make that rhyme in English (though worth pointing out that 'silmaril' rhymes with 'steal').
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2017
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  10. Ange1e4e5

    Ange1e4e5 Active Member

    I actually did have Howard Shore's score in mind (as well as Star Wars) when I proposed it.
     
  11. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I've never really thought about conjunctions in elvish before....

    or = hya (though var...var could mean 'either/or' in earlier versions)

    and = -yë (for the second of a pair, like 'sun and moon' or 'fire and water'....so for 'Manwë and Varda' - Manwë Vardayë?) or yo, so Manwë yo Varda
    Not to be confused: ye (1) singular personal relative pronoun "who", maybe also object "whom" (plural form i). Compare the impersonal form ya (which). Also attested in the genitive and the ablative cases: yëo and yello, both translated "from whom" (though the former would also mean *"whose, of whom"). (VT47:21)

    "and yet, but yet" = ananta

    but = apa or mal

    that = i (the)

    if = qui
     
  12. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    *first draft* - Part 1

    This text is easier to deal with when broken up into several parts, I think, so....

    Be he foe or friend,


    'Nai' may it be, has too much 'perhaps' to it, I think, for this purpose. I would like something a little more...emphatic, and less...wistful. Sure, that's probably the Enya song talking, but....edging away from the 'Namárië' stuff is probably good here. But only if that works in Quenya....

    , interj. “yes, it is so, it is a fact”
    násië, interj. “*amen, (lit.) may it be so”
    náto, interj. “it is that; *yes (emphatic)”

    That has a bit more of the 'Amen, amen I say to you' or 'So be it' - fits a bit more with inevitable doom.

    #cotto (“k”)noun “enemy”, isolated from Moricotto “Dark Enemy”, a Quenya form of Morgoth(VT49:25). Compare cotumo, *notto
    *notto
    (ñ) noun “enemy”, reconstructed simplex form of the second element of the Moringotto “Dark Enemy”, a Quenya form of Morgoth (VT49:25). Compare #cotto.

    sermë noun "friend" (fem.) (SER)
    sermo noun "friend" (evidently masc., since sermë is stated to be fem.) (SER)
    seron noun "friend" (SER)
    -ndil is the usual suffix meaning 'friend of', but also can be -ser: Elesser masc. name, = Old English Ælfwine, Elf-friend. (SER)
    nildë noun "friend" (fem.) (NIL/NDIL)
    nildo noun "friend" (apparently masc.; contrast nildë) (NIL/NDIL)
    nilmë noun "friendship" (NIL/NDIL)
    nilmo noun "friend" (apparently masc.) (NIL/NDIL)
    meldo noun "friend, lover". (VT45:34, quoting a deleted entry in the Etymologies, but cf. the pl. #meldor in Eldameldor "Elf-lovers", WJ:412) Meldonya *”my friend” (VT49:38, 40). It may be that meldo is the distinctly masculine form, corresponding to feminine #meldë (q.v.)

    So many choices! Masculine or generic? Dear friend or someone you are devoted to? Do we need to establish the connection to 'mellon' or to all the names like 'Elendil'?


    Náto var notto var seron
    or
    Násië cotto hya meldo


    (be he foul or clean),


    Honestly, this seems superfluous, so we could cut this line. IF the idea is to establish that the Oath applies to both good and evil individuals, the next line should take care of that.


    brood of Morgoth or bright Vala,

    Is Fëanor implying that Melkor is going to have children to create an evil force to be reckoned with? That's...an odd choice.
    But Fëanor *can't* know about orcs yet....can he? I mean, he does have a palantir, and he does know about the elves who were captured, but.....
    So what evil creatures would Fëanor have in mind? The Balrogs?

    There doesn't seem to be a recorded Quenya word for 'spawn' or 'brood' at any rate. So I think 'demon of Morgoth' is preferable to 'children of Morgoth.' But there is a word that can mean either 'child' or 'creature' that might work:

    onna noun "creature" (ONO), “child” (PE17:170), also translated "child" in the plural compound Aulëonnar "Children of Aulë", a name of the Dwarves (PM:391), and apparently also used = “child” in the untranslated sentence nai amanya onnalya ter coivierya (“k”) *”be it that your child [will be] blessed thoughout his/her life” (VT49:41). The form onya (q.v.), used as a vocative *"my child", is perhaps shortened from *onnanya.

    arauco for 'demon' with valarauco being specifically a balrog. 'A balrog of Morgoth' What did you say? That is how Fëanor meets his death, at least.


    Arauco Moringotto hya Vala calima


    Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,

    apa = after
    arta = et cetera
    verb tul- “come"
    Apanónar noun "the After-born", an Elvish name of Mortal Men as the Second-born of Ilúvatar

    Elda hya Maia hya Apanóna


    Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,

    Less superfluous than it appears, as obviously Men are unknown to the speakers and listeners here. Probably best to avoid 'Atani' for that reason.

    Atani = name for men
    Hildor = name for men (Followers)
    onta- (pa.t. ónë or ontanë) vb. "beget, create" (ONO, PE17:170) For instance, the verb onta- "to beget, create" may have the past tense form ónë (as an alternative to the regular form ontanë)
    nosta- “to beget; to be begotten”
    ua = negative for verbs
    man = who

    so, 'they have not been begotten' might be 'uantë onostier' or 'uiënte onontier' I'm thinking this isn't right, but I am not skilled enough to fix it.
    Giving us: The Followers upon Middle Earth (who) have-not-been-begotten

    Hildor Endorenna (man) uiënte onostier
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2017
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  13. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    Having listened to a bunch of different versions of the Dies Irae now, I think I can rule out Mozart and Verdi. Those are fine for what they are (part of a Requiem mass), but wouldn't work so great on film (in my opinion).

    There is the original chant; I'm fine with using that.

    (The actual text of the chant will fit better with the Doom of Mandos than the Oath or the Kinslaying.)

    There is also Dvorak's version. In general, I am a fan of his 'From the New World' symphony, so it's not surprising I also like his Dies Irae:

    It's a little bombastic. Maybe not to Carmina Burana levels, but....getting there.

    I think my favorite version, though, is Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique (up to 1:33 on this clip):

    There is something scattered and hectic to this, which fits the mood well. Also, he uses bells!
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
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  14. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    *first draft* - Part 2

    neither law, nor love, nor league of swords,

    axan n. “law, rule, commandment”
    #mel- v. “to love”
    melme n. “love”
    *tiriste n. “*watch, guard” [I didn't find a word like 'battalion' or 'company' or some other more appropriate synonym for 'league']
    macil n. “sword, forged sword blade, cutting sword” [There are other words for specific types of swords.]
    al(a)-¹ pref. “in-, un-, not; †-less, without”
    la- pref. “not, in-, un-”
    lá¹ adv. “no, not”
    *lavar = neither/nor? [I made this up....] Not to be confused with lávar n. “(golden) blossom”, so *alvar might be a better choice

    Alvar axan, alvar melme, alvar tiriste maciliva
    or
    Lá axan, hya lá melme, hya lá tiriste maciliva

    dread nor danger, not Doom itself,

    †þorya- v. “to dread, feel fear” thoryame? for the noun?
    †þossë n. “fear” [poetic 'Book Quenya' - only reason to use this is to slip in the 'th' which has to appear somewhere in the Oath]
    caurë n. "fear" (used in the Dies Irae above)
    #raxë n. “*danger”
    umbar n. “fate, doom, curse”
    imma pron. “same, self-same, same thing”
    insa pron. “itself”

    Lá thossë, hya lá raxë, hya lá Umbar insa

    shall defend him from Fëanor, and Fëanor's kin,
    hampa adj. “restrained, delayed, kept”
    varya- v. “to protect” (old)
    cauma n. “protection, shelter, shield”
    onna n. "child, creature"
    yondo n. "son" later: anon

    Aulëonnar "Children of Aulë" (dwarves), Híni Ilúvataro “Children of Ilúvatar” so
    Sons of Fëanor = Fëanáronnar or Yondor Fëanáro or Anoni Fëanáro or...?

    To be continued....
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2017
  15. MithLuin

    MithLuin Well-Known Member

    I shared my Quenya translations of the Dies Irae with someone quite a bit more skilled with elvish languages than I am, and got the following response:

    Gladhaniel at TORc:

    original: http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=103457&start=1115

    I agreed that súriva is the better correction in line (5), and that allative is appropriate in line (7) because of the preferred meaning 'against.'

    So, the final first draft to hand off to the musicians for this piece is as follows:

    Aurë rúseva, aurenna,
    Aurë paimeva [ar] caureva,
    Nortova [ar] angayasseva,
    Aurë lomeva [ar] mordova,
    Lumboiva [ar] hwinyala súriva or [Aurë lumboiva [ar] súriva]
    Aurë rombaiva [ar] rómaiva,
    Ostonnar [ar] pélorinnar.

    All of the superfluous 'ar' (and) can be removed to fix the syllables in a line. Alternatively, the 'ar' can be kept and the 'aurë' (day) dropped from the beginning of the line if that would be better. IF anything is problematic, I will happily go back and alter it, but at least I've got a working translation to begin with. Have at it!

    (And on to the Oath....)
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2018

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