Dies Irae

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Sounds good! I know Howard Shore used a bit of the Dies Irae with his Ring theme, so connecting that motif to 'fate' rather than 'death' in our project might be good. I think it could work with your Doom piece, maybe. Certainly, I wasn't expecting these to be stand alone chants, but rather figured there would be opportunities to use chanting/singing (like in those two examples) to enhance a piece of music you were working on. I like both the Duel of the Fates and the Ringwraiths as pieces of music, so it would be really cool if we could do something like that!

Logistically, though...I imagine you'd have to figure out how to work it in before I could get a singer to do something with it? Or should I get a voice recording it and let you try to fit that to the music? Let me know if there's something useful I can do there!



And here is my updated "Oath of Fëanor" with some editorial help from Gladhaniel at TORc:
http://forums.theonering.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=103457&start=1121
Also, line nine was translated by Erunno at Quenya101: https://quenya101.com/2014/07/15/oath-of-feanor-in-quenya/

Qui nás notto hya nildo (1)
Arauco Moringotto hya Vala calima
Elda hya Maia hya Apanóna
Hildor i uië onostier Endorenna
Ilar axan, ilar melme, ilar tiriste maciliva (5)
Ilar thossë, ilar raxë, ilar Umbar insa
Antuva cauma Fëanárollo ar Anonillon Fëanáro
Ye nurta hya harya haura hya mapa nondasse
Hiriessë harya hya háya hatë
Silmaril. Vanda sina carilmë: (10)
Fírië mahtuvalme sena fai ré-metta,
Rúþë tenn' Ambar-metta! Á hlarë vandalma
Eru Ilúvatar! Oiala lúmenna
Á húta mé cénai cardalma loita
Mi Oiolossë á hlarë ar ná astarmo (15)
Ar á enyalë vandalma, Manwë Vardayë!

I don't know what piece of music to fit this to, but I figured it would come up when the Fëanoreans were making particularly regrettable decisions. So, in this season, during the Kinslaying, the Shipburning, the Death of Fëanor, and/or when they decide to leave Maedhros to his fate as Morgoth's prisoner. It might disappear for awhile, but it would certainly be back for the later Kinslayings.
 
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Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
So Mithluin, here is your final translation from the Official Quenya translation thread. I think what you have done is fantastic and I would not have a hope in the world of doing this. I would like to use your translation rather than a random one from the internet. It makes it more of a joint SilmFilm project.

Qui nás notto hya nildo (1)
Arauco Moringotto hya Vala calima
Elda hya Maia hya Apanóna
Hildor i uië onostier Endorenna
Ilar axan, ilar melme, ilar tiriste maciliva (5)
Ilar thossë, ilar raxë, ilar Umbar insa
Antuva cauma Fëanárollo ar Anonillon Fëanáro
Ye nurta hya harya haura hya mapa nondasse
Hiriessë harya hya háya hatë
Silmaril. Vanda sina carilmë: (10)
Fírië mahtuvalme sena fai ré-metta,
Rúþë tenn' Ambar-metta! Á hlarë vandalma
Eru Ilúvatar! Oiala lúmenna
Á húta mé cénai cardalma loita
Mi Oiolossë á hlarë ar ná astarmo (15)
Ar á enyalë vandalma, Manwë Vardayë!

I have started to write something but will need some guidance as to firstly syllables so I know how to space the words through the music. After that I will need some help with the big one, pronunciation. I may just get it published first with ahhs for voice and then spend time getting people to sing it and put it all together. I don't think that will be possible before the end of the season.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Thanks, Phillip! I've broken down the words into syllables below, in the hopes that that gives you a starting point. Quenya pronunciation isn't something I'm any good at, but I can likely look up some guidelines to help get started there as well. This is mostly taken from Appendix E in Lord of the Rings, but more comprehensive resources are available, such as Lesson 1 of Helge Fauskanger's Quenya Course available for download here:
Lesson 1: https://folk.uib.no/hnohf/qcourse.htm

First, stress. One syllable words are easy ;). In two syllable words, the accent is typically on the first syllable (exception: a). In longer words, it usually falls on the penultimate syllable, but there are exceptions. If the second-to-last syllable contains a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel followed by two or more consonants, it will be stressed.
Tolkien's examples: Isildur, Elenri, anne, Pelargir, silivren, periannath
If the penultimate syllable contains a short vowel followed by only one (or no) consonants, then the stress falls on the syllable before that one (third from the end). Very common in Quenya!
Tolkien's examples: ancalima, anor, Oromë, Eressëa, Denethor, Ecthelion
{Denethor may seem confusing. You might expect Denethor based on these rules! But -th here counts as one consonant. The second-to-the-last syllable is a short vowel with the digraph (single consonant) th after it, so...accent goes on Denethor! Similarly, 'x' will count as 2 consonants (ks)}

Second, basic pronunciation: y is a consonant in Quenya, not a vowel as in Sindarin. All c's are pronounced as k, not s. All g's are hard (no j sound). Final f is pronounced v {not relevant here}. R is trilled (unless hr). Hy = hew, huge
For the vowels, going with the sounds of Italian wouldn't be a bad approximation for Quenya vowels!
The short vowels are to be pronounced i as in pit, e as in end, a as in padre (or Han Solo!), o as in box, and u as in put
The long vowels are to be pronounced í as in machine, é as in were, á as in father, ó as in for, and ú as in brute
The falling diphthongs ai (rye), au (loud), oi (boy), ui (ruin), eu (?), iu (yule*), (and rarely ei (grey)) are to be pronounced with the stress on the first element. [Yule is a rising diphthong and represents 3rd Age pronunciation; I don't have an example for eu or iu in the First Age, but they are rare. *scans text* We're good. :) ]
Umlauts don't mean anything except 'don't forget to pronounce this vowel!' So ë on the end is just a regular short e, but the umlaut is there to remind you it's not a silent letter. In other cases, the umlaut is to alert you that two vowels together are not a diphthong and must be pronounced separately.
er (air), ir (eer), ur (oor) are not pronounced like fern, fir, fur.
ng is like finger, unless it's at the end, in which case it's like sing. I'll split the n and g into separate syllables to make this more clear.
th is like 'thin cloth' dh is like 'these clothes' Rare in Quenya (became 's'), but the Fëanoreans definitely pronounce archaic th! Not sure I can correctly predict whether the two instances here are 'dh' or 'th', though....

Qui nás notto hya nildo (1)
Kwi nás not-to hya nil-do​
Arauco Moringotto hya Vala calima
A-rau-ko Mor-in-got-to hya Va-la ka-lim-a​
Elda hya Maia hya Apanóna
El-da hya Mai-a hya A-pan-ón-a​
Hildor i uië onostier Endorenna
Hil-dor i ui-ë on-os-ti-er En-dor-en-na​
Ilar axan, ilar melme, ilar tiriste maciliva (5)
I-lar ak-san, i-lar mel-me, i-lar tir-is-te ma-ki-li-va​
Ilar thossë, ilar raxë, ilar Umbar insa
I-lar thos-së, i-lar rak-së, i-lar Um-bar in-sa​
Antuva cauma Fëanárollo ar Anonillon Fëanáro
An-tu-va kau-ma Fë-a-nár-ol-lo ar A-non-il-lon Fë-a-nár-o​
Ye nurta hya harya haura hya mapa nondasse
Ye nur-ta hya har-ya hau-ra hya ma-pa non-das-se​
Hiriessë harya hya háya hatë
Hi-ri-es-së har-ya hya -ya ha-të​
Silmaril. Vanda sina carilmë: (10)
Sil-ma-ril. Van-da si-na kar-il-më:​
Fírië mahtuvalme sena fai ré-metta,
Fír-i-ë mah-tuv-al-me se-na fai ré-met-ta​
Rúþë tenn' Ambar-metta! Á hlarë vandalma
-thë tenn' Am-bar-met-ta! Á hlar-ë van-dal-ma​
Eru Ilúvatar! Oiala lúmenna
Er-u I-lú-va-tar! Oi-a-la lú-men-na​
Á húta mé cénai cardalma loita
Á -ta mé -nai kar-dal-ma loi-ta​
Mi Oiolossë á hlarë ar ná astarmo (15)
Mi Oi-ol-os-së á hlar-ë ar ná as-tar-mo​
Ar á enyalë vandalma, Manwë Vardayë!
Ar á -al-ë van-dal-ma, Man-wë Var-da-yë​

Comments: hya obviously appears a lot here! It's a single syllable, so consider it as if someone were to 'huff' the sound...probably not easy to do while singing! There's a small 'h' sound before the 'y', pronounced as in German ich. But it's not two syllables like the 'hiya' in karate. [For a terrible example of that, here's the Green Ranger fighting in Might Morphin Power Rangers..]

The 'a' in Han Solo is a Quenya short a (see Harrison Ford's introduction at the 3 minute mark in this clip):
Christopher Lee's elvish as Saruman (pronouncing Caradhras) is also a good example



This is just a 'first pass' - I likely made mistakes and will have to check it over later. But I wanted to give you some idea of the stress, syllables, and pronunciation to get you going.
 
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Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Thanks, Phillip! I've broken down the words into syllables below, in the hopes that that gives you a starting point. Quenya pronunciation isn't something I'm any good at, but I can likely look up some guidelines to help get started there as well. This is mostly taken from Appendix E in Lord of the Rings, but more comprehensive resources are available, such as Lesson 1 of Helge Fauskanger's Quenya Course available for download here:
Lesson 1: https://folk.uib.no/hnohf/qcourse.htm

First, stress. One syllable words are easy ;). In two syllable words, the accent is typically on the first syllable (exception: a). In longer words, it usually falls on the penultimate syllable, but there are exceptions. If the second-to-last syllable contains a long vowel, a diphthong, or a vowel followed by two or more consonants, it will be stressed.
Tolkien's examples: Isildur, Elenri, anne, Pelargir, silivren, periannath
If the penultimate syllable contains a short vowel followed by only one (or no) consonants, then the stress falls on the syllable before that one (third from the end). Very common in Quenya!
Tolkien's examples: ancalima, anor, Oromë, Eressëa, Denethor, Ecthelion
{Denethor may seem confusing. You might expect Denethor based on these rules! But -th here counts as one consonant. The second-to-the-last syllable is a short vowel with the digraph (single consonant) th after it, so...accent goes on Denethor! Similarly, 'x' will count as 2 consonants (ks)}

Second, basic pronunciation: y is a consonant in Quenya, not a vowel as in Sindarin. All c's are pronounced as k, not s. All g's are hard (no j sound). Final f is pronounced v {not relevant here}. R is trilled (unless hr). Hy = hew, huge
For the vowels, going with the sounds of Italian wouldn't be a bad approximation for Quenya vowels!
The short vowels are to be pronounced i as in pit, e as in end, a as in padre (or Han Solo!), o as in box, and u as in put
The long vowels are to be pronounced í as in machine, é as in were, á as in father, ó as in for, and ú as in brute
The falling diphthongs ai (rye), au (loud), oi (boy), ui (ruin), eu (?), iu (yule*), (and rarely ei (grey)) are to be pronounced with the stress on the first element. [Yule is a rising diphthong and represents 3rd Age pronunciation; I don't have an example for eu or iu in the First Age, but they are rare. *scans text* We're good. :) ]
Umlauts don't mean anything except 'don't forget to pronounce this vowel!' So ë on the end is just a regular short e, but the umlaut is there to remind you it's not a silent letter. In other cases, the umlaut is to alert you that two vowels together are not a diphthong and must be pronounced separately.
er (air), ir (eer), ur (oor) are not pronounced like fern, fir, fur.
ng is like finger, unless it's at the end, in which case it's like sing. I'll split the n and g into separate syllables to make this more clear.
th is like 'thin cloth' dh is like 'these clothes' Rare in Quenya (became 's'), but the Fëanoreans definitely pronounce archaic th! Not sure I can correctly predict whether the two instances here are 'dh' or 'th', though....

Qui nás notto hya nildo (1)
Kwi nás not-to hya nil-do​
Arauco Moringotto hya Vala calima
A-rau-ko Mor-in-got-to hya Va-la ca-lim-a​
Elda hya Maia hya Apanóna
El-da hya Mai-a hya A-pan-ón-a​
Hildor i uië onostier Endorenna
Hil-dor i ui-ë on-os-ti-er En-dor-en-na​
Ilar axan, ilar melme, ilar tiriste maciliva (5)
I-lar ak-san, i-lar mel-me, i-lar tir-is-te ma-ci-li-va​
Ilar thossë, ilar raxë, ilar Umbar insa
I-lar thos-së, i-lar rak-së, i-lar Um-bar in-sa​
Antuva cauma Fëanárollo ar Anonillon Fëanáro
An-tu-va cau-ma Fë-a-nár-ol-lo ar A-non-il-lon Fë-a-nár-o​
Ye nurta hya harya haura hya mapa nondasse
Ye nur-ta hya har-ya hau-ra hya ma-pa non-das-se​
Hiriessë harya hya háya hatë
Hi-ri-es-së har-ya hya -ya ha-të​
Silmaril. Vanda sina carilmë: (10)
Sil-ma-ril. Van-da si-na car-il-më:​
Fírië mahtuvalme sena fai ré-metta,
Fír-i-ë mah-tuv-al-me se-na fai ré-met-ta​
Rúþë tenn' Ambar-metta! Á hlarë vandalma
-thë tenn' Am-bar-met-ta! Á hlar-ë van-dal-ma​
Eru Ilúvatar! Oiala lúmenna
Er-u I-lú-va-tar! Oi-a-la lú-men-na​
Á húta mé cénai cardalma loita
Á -ta mé -nai car-dal-ma loit-a​
Mi Oiolossë á hlarë ar ná astarmo (15)
Mi Oi-ol-os-së á hlar-ë ar ná as-tar-mo​
Ar á enyalë vandalma, Manwë Vardayë!
Ar á -al-ë van-dal-ma, Man-wë Var-da-yë​

Comments: hya obviously appears a lot here! It's a single syllable, so consider it as if someone were to 'huff' the sound...probably not easy to do while singing! There's a small 'h' sound before the 'y', pronounced as in German ich. But it's not two syllables like the 'hiya' in karate. [For a terrible example of that, here's the Green Ranger fighting in Might Morphin Power Rangers....45s into this clip.]

The 'a' in Han Solo is a Quenya short a (see Harrison Ford's introduction at the 3 minute mark in this clip):
Christopher Lee's elvish as Saruman (pronouncing Caradhras) is also a good example



This is just a 'first pass' - I likely made mistakes and will have to check it over later. But I wanted to give you some idea of the stress, syllables, and pronunciation to get you going.
All I can say is WOW. You've given me alot to think about. As I said this is way outside of my league. I might bat things back and forth with you. Lucky I have been listening to ExLOTR and taking notice of Corey's commenatary on the poetry (not my forte) so I will be thinking about which syllables can be moved around, effectively making exceptions to the rhythm. I am playing with the rythm of the Dies Irae and adding some of my established elements so that it doesn't come over as a direct copy.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
While I'm thinking of this, I might as well do the syllables for the Dies Irae lyrics I came up with....

Aurë rúseva, aurenna,
Au--se-va, aur-en-na​
Aurë paimeva [ar] caureva,
Au-rë pai-me-va [ar] cau-re-va,​
Nortova [ar] angayasseva,
Nor-to-va [ar] an-ga-yas-se-va,​
Aurë lomeva [ar] mordova,
Au-rë lo-me-va [ar] mor-do-va​
Lumboiva [ar] hwinyala súriva or [Aurë lumboiva [ar] súriva]
Lum-boi-va [ar] hwi-nya-la -ri-va​
Au-rë lum-boi-va [ar] -ri-va
Aurë rombaiva [ar] rómaiva,
Au-rë rom-bai-va [ar] ró-mai-va​
Ostonnar [ar] pélorinnar.

Ost-on-nar [ar] pé-lor-in-nar.​
 

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
I can only think of one more thing that will help me at this point. I have a basic tune in mind and I need to put the lyrics together in a sensible way. Are you able to give me a direct translation back into English for your final translation (line by line if possible). I was not certain which version you fonally settled on. I can then work out which lines to start with, which lines can be repeated and which bits can be split and still make sense.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
For each line below, you will see:
1) Tolkien's English 'translation'​
2) My Quenya translation
3) Quenya line broken up into accented syllables​
4) word-for-word English translation​

Let me just say that this is a very literal translation. If there are passages that are giving you problems (particularly if they have too many/too few syllables), please let me know and I'll work on an alteration. There are plenty of choices that can go differently - 'ilar' can be 'alvar,' and is only 'ilar' because a) someone else did that first, and b) it works with 'insa'

Tolkien worked very hard to keep the alliteration going throughout (Death we will Deal him ere Day's ending, etc.) Working hard to keep the exact meaning while losing the alliteration is probably...not the best way to translate this. A 'looser' but more poetic translation could be preferred. After all, Tolkien had no trouble rewriting it as rhyming, so...(see earlier in the thread).

Also worth pointing out that while the stresses may fall on these syllables when speaking, there's no need to keep those stresses in those places while singing, most likely....



The Oath of Fëanor

Be he foe or friend, [be he foul or clean,]
Qui nás notto hya nildo (1)
Kwi nás not-to hya nil-do​
If he-is enemy or friend​
brood of Morgoth or bright Vala,
Arauco Moringotto hya Vala calima
A-rau-ko Mor-in-got-to hya Va-la ka-li-ma​
Demon of-Morgoth or Power bright​

Elda or Maia or Aftercomer,
Elda hya Maia hya Apanóna
El-da hya Mai-a hya A-pa--na​
Elf or Angel or Aftercomer(human)​

Man yet unborn upon Middle-earth,
Hildor i uië onostier Endorenna
Hil-dor i ui-ë on-os-ti-er En-dor-en-na​
Followers(Men) who have-not been-begotten upon-Middle-earth​

neither law, nor love, nor league of swords,
Ilar axan, ilar melme, ilar tiriste maciliva (5)
Il-ar ak-san, il-ar mel-me, il-ar tir-is-te ma-kil-i-va​
And-not law/commandment, and-not love, and-not guard of-swords,​

dread nor danger, not Doom itself,
Ilar thossë, ilar raxë, ilar Umbar insa
Il-ar thos-së, il-ar rak-së, il-ar Um-bar in-sa​
And-not fear(poetic), and-not danger, and-not Doom itself​

shall defend him from Fëanor, and Fëanor's kin,
Antuva cauma Fëanárollo ar Anonillon Fëanáro
An-tu-va kau-ma Fë-a-nár-ol-lo ar An-on-il-lon Fë-a-nár-o​
Will-give protection from-Fëanor and from-the-Sons of-Fëanor​
whoso hideth or hoardeth, or in hand taketh,
Ye nurta hya harya haura hya mapa nondasse
Ye nur-ta hya har-ya hau-ra hya ma-pa non-das-se​
Who hide or possess a-hoard or grasp in-a-fist,​

finding keepeth or afar casteth
Hiriessë harya hya háya hatë
Hi-ri-es-së har-ya hya -ya ha-të​
Find possess or far-off throw​

a Silmaril. This swear we all:
Silmaril. Vanda sina carilmë: (10)
Sil-ma-ril. Van-da si-na ka-ril-më:​
a-Silmaril. Oath this we-make:​

death we will deal him ere Day's ending,
Fírië mahtuvalme sena fai ré-metta,
-ri-ë mah-tuv-al-me se-na fai ré-met-ta,​
Death we(exclusive)-will-handle to-him before day's-end​

woe unto world's end! Our word hear thou,
Rúþë tenn' Ambar-metta! Á hlarë vandalma
-thë tenn' Am-bar-met-ta! Á hla-rë van-dal-ma​
Wrath until world's-end! (Imperative) hear our-oath,​

Eru Allfather! To the everlasting
Eru Ilúvatar! Oiala lúmenna
E-ru I--va-tar! Oi-a-la lú-men-na​
The-One All-Father! Everlasting to-the-darkness​

Darkness doom us if our deed faileth.
Á húta mé cénai cardalma loita
Á -ta mé -nai kar-dal-ma loi-ta​
(Imperative) curse us if-it-be-that our-deed falls-short​

On the holy mountain hear in witness
Mi Oiolossë á hlarë ar ná astarmo (15)
Mi Oi-ol-os-së á hla-rë ar ná as-tar-mo​
On Mount-Ever-White (imperative) hear and be witness​

and our vow remember, Manwë and Varda!
Ar á enyalë vandalma, Manwë Vardayë!
Ar á e-ña-lë van-dal-ma, Man-wë Var-da-yë!​
And (imperative) remember-it our-vow, Manwë and-Varda!​


{Edit: finished!}
 
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MithLuin

Well-Known Member
Okay, any word in red is optional or up for alteration as a 'starting point' of what I'd change first if you asked for changes. Obviously, you can shift words back or forth between lines if necessary.

Qui nás notto hya nildo (1)
There are other variations of 'be' with more syllables, but it would still start with 'n' - just maybe 2-3 syllables instead of one.​

Arauco Moringotto hya Vala calima
The description of the Valar is superfluous, so it could be anything, not necessarily 'bright' (which was chosen to go with 'brood'). Maybe 'holy' (aina) would fit better here.​

Elda hya Maia hya Apanóna
This one has to stay as-is​

Hildor i uië onostier Endorenna
Ehhhh...this is a tough line *throws hands up in despair*​

Ilar axan, ilar melme, ilar tiriste maciliva (5)
Anything representing 'force' would fit here; law/love/league of swords was for alliteration, but I think law and love need to stay. (melehta = mighty; nírë = force)​

Ilar thossë, ilar raxë, ilar Umbar insa
Again with dread/danger/doom alliterating. You've gotta keep doom, but the others could be changed to other negative things designating risk/fear/danger - maybe even something poetic like 'kindled fire'. If you change 'thossë,' I will have to insist on keeping 'ruthë' in line 12; this translation needs a th for shibboleth of Fëanor reasons.​

Antuva cauma Fëanárollo ar Anonillon Fëanáro
It's harder to say 'Sons of' in Quenya than you'd think! I can alter this to another variation if needed.​

Ye nurta hya harya haura hya mapa nondasse
That's super literal, and as an expression in English might not even work in Quenya. I can try something else to represent 'take in hand' - something like 'steal', maybe (arpo = thief)​

Hiriessë harya hya háya hatë
I did not write this line, and there is zero chance I can do better than the person who did. So elegant!​

Silmaril. Vanda sina carilmë: (10)
I had originally considered a more 'artistic' form of make, to imply that Fëanor has 'composed' the oath (like a song), and that would make this the last creative work he ever does. The generic 'to make' is the better fit here, but I can change it if desired (the ending would be unchanged).​

Fírië mahtuvalme sena fai ré-metta,
Technically, there's no sun yet, so there's no 'day' based on sunrise/sunset. And the Trees are dead, so there's no more days of the Trees, either. When the Oath is spoken, the concept of 'day' isn't really there....so perhaps this should be some other indication of 'immediately' or 'right after' or 'without delay' or 'before he sleeps'​

Rúþë tenn' Ambar-metta! Á hlarë vandalma
'Wrath' wasn't in the original, but it fit and I chose it for shibboleth purposes. The rest of this line can't be changed (even though I have substituted 'our oath' for 'our word'.)​

Eru Ilúvatar! Oiala lúmenna
I've moved 'darkness' to this line.​

Á húta mé cénai cardalma loita
No suggestions for changes​

Mi Oiolossë á hlarë ar ná astarmo (15)
This could be Taniquetal or 'holy mountain'​

Ar á enyalë vandalma, Manwë Varda!
You can put 'ar' between Manwë and Varda and delete the ending.​
 
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Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Musically I will be finishing the oath music with the Doom theme which means I want a different line to end it. Mithluuin, can you also translate this line from one of the other versions of the Oath into Quenya as well?
"Darkness doom us if our deed faileth."
I just have to have the meaning of the lines fit the music. I think we can have that license. It is an adaptation anyway.
 

MithLuin

Well-Known Member
That is lines 13-14 in my translation. So "Oiala lúmenna
Á húta mé cénai cardalma loita"
means 'to the everlasting darkness curse us if our deed falls short'
 
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