Elrond isn't an elf?

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
I thought the whole point about Tuor was that he is the one and only Tuor.

Dior? Why?still don't understand.Everything JRRT wrote hints towards Earendil's crossing of the line is the reason.

As for your explanation... i won't say it hasnt't any merit to it, but i still won't understand why. Theres no immortal x-chromosome, also elvishness is not a genetic condition or mutation caused by contact/contamination.It is frankly i don't see the logic, it doesn not convince me.Of course it COULD be, i won't say it can't be/is impossible.But i don't see it as necessarily so and nothing in the text hints towards it in my eyes.

My whole point is: it is not your explanation i dislike.I actually dislike Tolkien's explanation, i just fear as it is the author's choice i'll have to roll with it.

His entire newly released writings on elven and numenorean lifespans are confusing to me.It is however that he gave lots of thought to it... if a half-elf becomes elf or mortal his entire perception of time and lifecircle changes. Elrond became elf shortly after his birth.Arwen when she married Aragorn.I do not have to understand or like it but it seems to be the in-world rules at work.

As far as i can see it is never upbringing, education, nourishment or culture. JRRT does not seem to think in categories of socialisation or biology about it but in category of mythology and by the end religion or faith.It is because of the grace of Eru that Elronds children are bound to their fathers choice (and maybe Elrosses, it is unclear if he changed his mind or not, however i think even a half-elvish Vardamir who made the choice of mortality wouldn't seriously conflict with the canon).
 
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Odola

Active Member
I thought the whole point about Tuor was that he is the one and only Tuor.

Dior? Why?still don't understand.Everything JRRT wrote hints towards Earendil's crossing of the line is the reason.

As for your explanation... i won't say it hasnt't any merit to it, but i still won't understand why. Theres no immortal x-chromosome, also elvishness is not a genetic condition or mutation caused by contact/contamination.It is frankly i don't see the logic, it doesn not convince me.Of course it COULD be, i won't say it can't be/is impossible.But i don't see it as necessarily so and nothing in the text hints towards it in my eyes.

My whole point is: it is not your explanation i dislike.I actually dislike Tolkien's explanation, i just fear as it is the author's choice i'll have to roll with it.

His entire newly released writings on elven and numenorean lifespans are confusing to me.It is however that he gave lots of thought to it... if a half-elf becomes elf or mortal his entire perception of time and lifecircle changes. Elrond became elf shortly after his birth.Arwen when she married Aragorn.I do not have to understand or like it but it seems to be the in-world rules at work.

As far as i can see it is never upbringing, education, nourishment or culture. JRRT does not seem to think in categories of socialisation or biology about it but in category of mythology and by the end religion or faith.It is because of the grace of Eru that Elronds children are bound to their fathers choice (and maybe Elrosses, it is unclear if he changed his mind or not, however i think even a half-elvish Vardamir who made the choice of mortality wouldn't seriously conflict with the canon).
This is confusing indeed. Elrond became elf shortly after birth and Arwen at her marriage? Do you mean "human at her marriage"?
And upbringing and faith actually do hang together. That's actually the point. If you are brought up to place your Hope in the West or beyond the circles of Arda, that is a mayor difference in your life. See Arwen's difficulties at Aragorn's death. She was not taught to live human Hope as a child. It was foreign to her. She might have known about it but she did not know it. As such with my elvish newborn findling raised by humans example. Such an biological elf would be raised with human perspective on dying, laws, and paryskie in the human Hope. The West could not fill its heart if it would chooses and not work hard to reclaim its elvish heritage.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
No because faiths can be different but within Arda there is only one true faith and the author had his own strong faith.So it is, within these lines, not a cultural construct that can be made or changed.The Valar have just one faith and it is Eru's grace.

That Arwen was completely elf until she married Aragorn and after that became human, without fully understanding what it means until shortly before her death precisely is that point.
 

Rachel Port

Well-Known Member
"These children [Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen] were three parts of Elven-race, but the doom spoken at their birth was that they should live even as the Elves so long as their father remained in Middle-earth; but if he departed they should have then the choice either to pass over the Sea with him, or to become mortal, if they remained behind (Peoples of Middle-earth, 234-5)."
This is not somethng Tolkien published, and seems to be part of his later thoughts on the subject. I do not think it is definitive. But it is interesting. But Arwen says in LOTR, when Aragorn is dying and tells her she can depart and go West, that she cannot because she has made the choice of Luthien. I have always believed her.
 

Odola

Active Member
This is not somethng Tolkien published, and seems to be part of his later thoughts on the subject. I do not think it is definitive. But it is interesting. But Arwen says in LOTR, when Aragorn is dying and tells her she can depart and go West, that she cannot because she has made the choice of Luthien. I have always believed her.
The problem with the doom spoken at their bitrh is that the brothers and the sister were born at different times.

Haerangil There might be not different confessions per se but still the elven and the human paradies/ultimate destinations/ fates do not match. As such an elf does not normally partake directly in the human Hope. That is what I mean with "faith"(fate). As such a mixed heritage person who is not innitiated into the human Hope by being accepted or being claimed by a human community at a young age might be rendered unable to access it.
As such I think Arwen want it to fi2lmów Luthien overestimated her own limitation. She was not Luthien, how ever Great się resembled her. The solution that Aragorn proposed would actually be the best for her as a person imho. Her fate might have been changed but her heart was still elvish. This makes actually visible why she was granted the choice in the first place, according to her bloodline she had a legally rightfull claim on the Hope of Men that could not be denied her should she choose to embrace it. But she was free not to embrace it as it was foreign to her. She choose to embrace it not for itself but for the side-effect of marrying her lover. That was simply not a good reason to do it.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
This is not somethng Tolkien published, and seems to be part of his later thoughts on the subject. I do not think it is definitive. But it is interesting. But Arwen says in LOTR, when Aragorn is dying and tells her she can depart and go West, that she cannot because she has made the choice of Luthien. I have always believed her.
Excellent point.But Luthien... which one of her choices?
Her first choice to die of grief for Beren or her second choice, to live with him again as a mortal?

I think my quotes above indicate Tolkien meant she chose to live and die with him as a mortal is what he meant, and from the point of her marriage on there was no way back for her as she'd already become mortal.

@Odola
I do not see a contradiction, fate can be spoken two times or three times, ultimately it was each time a repetition of Manwe's judgement on Earendil and Elwing.

I think even humans who are initiated into human hope/faith not necessarily get it very well. I am not sure if choice of mortality by marrying her lover was a bad reason.Ultimately she chose to follow his soul beyond the circles of the world... that is a very good reason to choose mortality i think. But i agree, her heart was elvish... until her last days when she understood mortal sorrow, her understanding that i believe shows her heart had turned human as well.
 
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Odola

Active Member
Excellent point.But Luthien... which one of her choices?
Her first choice to die of grief for Beren or her second choice, to live with him again as a mortal?

I think my quotes above indicate Tolkien meant she chose to live and die with him as a mortal is what he meant, and from the point of her marriage on there was no way back for her as she'd already become mortal.

@Odola
I do not see a contradiction, fate can be spoken two times or three times, ultimately it was each time a repetition of Manwe's judgement on Earendil and Elwing.

I think even humans who are initiated into human hope/faith not necessarily get it very well. I am not sure if choice of mortality by marrying her lover was a bad reason.Ultimately she chose to follow his soul beyond the circles of the world... that is a very good reason to choose mortality i think. But i agree, her heart was elvish... until her last days when she understood mortal sorrow, her understanding that i believe shows her heart had turned human as well.
The issue with that is that marriages are resolved at death. Even for elves it is so should the dead party refuse or be refused reembodiment. Marriage is at its basis still a bodily union. That is why widowed people are able to remarry. If Arwen is not interested at all in the reality beyond Arda, she will feel cheated.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well there's certainly more than just marriage if you wish to join a persons soul even after death. I can't believe she lives for thousands of years and never gave a single thought about all of that what she considered. To not understand life and death is also a very human thing i believe. Anyway it is a sad and tragic story, but not only.If she will feel cheated? In the end it was her fate, wasn't it?
 

Rachel Port

Well-Known Member
Did she feel cheated? She tells Aragorn that now she is, for the first time, feeling and understanding the bitterness of the human condition (my words, not hers), but bitterness does not just come from feeling cheated - that she is missing out on something. She is bitter about loss, a part of the feelings humans have on the death of a loved one. I wonder what her children felt when she leaves Gondor and ends her life in Lorien.
 
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