Episode 4: Not the Trail of Tears (or Episode 3)

I know - I'm disappointed that they won't let us show how the Island Ferry works before it becomes a dramatic plot point, but....this is the way Tolkien wrote it, so it's not like they're terribly out of line to tell us 'cut it out' here.

The situation is that we saw a way to address a structural problem, and the idea was struck down as being our problem without any consideration of the structural issue that led to the problem in the first place. Like when they told us that we 'made the problem ourselves' by wanting to have Ingwë have a dead relative, as if the only reason we were objecting to the 'First Elf' idea was because we wanted him to have dead parents.

But such is life. It's the Execs' jobs to shoot down all of our ideas without considering them fully 😛
 
MithLuin said:
I know - I'm disappointed that they won't let us show how the Island Ferry works before it becomes a dramatic plot point, but....this is the way Tolkien wrote it, so it's not like they're terribly out of line to tell us 'cut it out' here.
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We've got different tools and rules for the story than Tolkien.

And you're right, we can't have the island ferry turn up ex machina. It needs to be set up. Ideally, in act one, but since that is full to bursting with Ents as it is, it has to be early act two. In 7, can we steal half a page from Angband to have a scene that sets the island ferry? I'm thinking a scene with Uinen and Ossë asking Ulmo how exactly the elves are going to get across, Ulmo tartly mentioning that he thinks the whole business is a stupid idea and that they should figure it out before before making a non-obvious gesture to the island. It's not a great scene, but it solves a problem and doesn't out right tell the audience exactly what's going to happen, but does set it up.

The situation is that we saw a way to address a structural problem, and the idea was struck down as being our problem without any consideration of the structural issue that led to the problem in the first place. Like when they told us that we 'made the problem ourselves' by wanting to have Ingwë have a dead relative, as if the only reason we were objecting to the 'First Elf' idea was because we wanted him to have dead parents.

But such is life. It's the Execs' jobs to shoot down all of our ideas without considering them fully 😛
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I have no polite comment.
 
It is maybe relevant for me to point out that in real life, my name can be construed to mean 'Bitterness' 😛

I agree that we should have an Ulmo cameo early on to prepare for the Island, so it doesn't look like we got to that part and then were like 'huh - I wonder how all these people are going to cross the ocean - are they going to have to build boats or something?' Another issue to address is...where is Oromë in this episode and what is he doing? The main reason the Teleri lag behind is that they'll only move forward when he's there (in the book). Are we showing that? Are we going to show Oromë talk to Ulmo (or Ossë) to get this Island Ferry going? Does Oromë help the Vanyar and Noldor move on to the Island and create some of the 'hurry up the boat is leaving' tension?


One advantage of having the Angband update earlier is that it gives us the 'there are bad things out in the world' vibe before we meet Melian in the woods, but we also see Tom Bombadil right before we meet her. That invites the audience to consider both possibilities - evil enchantress or benign mystical being? I mean, assuming they don't recognize her from her scene in Episode 2.
 
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MithLuin said:
I agree that we should have an Ulmo cameo early on to prepare for the Island, so it doesn't look like we got to that part and then were like 'huh - I wonder how all these people are going to cross the ocean - are they going to have to build boats or something?'
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Cool. Done.
MithLuin said:
Another issue to address is...where is Oromë in this episode and what is he doing? The main reason the Teleri lag behind is that they'll only move forward when he's there (in the book). Are we showing that? Are we going to show Oromë talk to Ulmo (or Ossë) to get this Island Ferry going? Does Oromë help the Vanyar and Noldor move on to the Island and create some of the 'hurry up the boat is leaving' tension?
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We don't have enormous scope to graft Oromë into the episode... So we can drop him into the teaser – the Elves migrate and big ol's glowing Oromë is with them.

Maybe we can start 2 with Oromë leaving the Teleri to go check on the Noldor/Vanyar and then segue into disorganisation among the Teleri and thus imply, rather than be explicit, that Oromë is what is keeping them moving.

In act two, at 6, we can have Oromë hanging around the Noldor/Vanyar as a background detail. Likewise in act three, 12, he can be there and some artful camera work will make it clear he is responsible for getting Ossë to do his thing.

We can have him turn up at the top of act four, 13, giving Olwë a whole tick tock speech.
MithLuin said:
One advantage of having the Angband update earlier is that it gives us the 'there are bad things out in the world' vibe before we meet Melian in the woods, but we also see Tom Bombadil right before we meet her. That invites the audience to consider both possibilities - evil enchantress or benign mystical being? I mean, assuming they don't recognize her from her scene in Episode 2.
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Well we're not actually showing that it is Melian at the midpoint – that's revealed in the dénouement – so there should be about half an episode of the audience wondering what ensnared Elwë.

Eugh, Tom Bombadil.
 
Since a good bit of the tension at the end of the episode is 'No one knows where the Teleri are' it's probably best to make Oromë distracted with the Island and not meeting up with them. The disappearance of Elwë is something the Noldor remain ignorant of for a few more episodes. But I've tried to edit Oromë in accordingly.
 
MithLuin said:
Like so: Revised Outline

Teaser
1. (Up to 4 pages)
Main: the Eldar journey across Middle Earth - sweeping vistas and awesome music! The Eldar are singing as they traverse majestic terrain under starlight. Oromë is with them.

Act One
2. (4 pages)
Frame: Arwen expresses grief at being left behind by her mother.
[Oromë leaves.] Disorganization in the Teleri camp - no one knows the plans, everyone is doing their own thing, impossible to get the group to work together.
Olwë, acting for his brother Elwë, expresses frustration to Lenwë, urging him to get his people together.

3. (4 pages)
Lenwë is organizing his 'lost tribes', but while journeying to and fro, he comes upon a walking tree. In wonder, he stops to investigate. The tree (actually Treebeard) makes some "Hoom, hoom" noises, but fails to talk. After the first attempts at communication reveal that the creature is sentient, Lenwë's folk are delighted. (There are multiple elves and ents present, including Treebeard's wife!)

4. (4 pages)
Lenwë informs Olwë that moving now is out of the question. They've just met the tree-people and have to stay to learn to talk with them! Olwë tells Elwë of the - as he sees it - disaster of Lenwë's people staying behind.

Act Two
5. (4 pages)
Frame: [Arwen something something looking at the Misty Mountains.]
The rest of the Teleri press on, crossing the Misty Mountains. Elwë decides he better tell Finwë about this development, that he has 'lost' some of his people. He leaves Olwë in charge and sets out with Celeborn, Beleg (and Mablung?) to journey to the Noldor camp.

6. (4 pages)
In the Noldor camp, Elwë is happy to see his friend Finwë. [Random Noldor - Mahtan or Rúmil?] makes a disparaging remark about the disorganized, lagging behind Teleri - Finwë defends his friend. Elwë is also frustrated with his group, and wants to know how Finwë keeps the Noldor on task. The ingenious timekeeping device of the hourglass is revealed, and Finwë gifts one to Elwë to help. Elwë is none-to-pleased when he has to share Finwë's attention with Míriel [and Ingwë], but their tension is mild. Oromë is here.

7.1 (2 pages)
Angband update: Mairon visits the dungeons, and chastises Tevildo for his harsh methods. "They're no good to me dead" type of complaints, and that Tevildo is pushing them too hard. Sauron shows him how it is done, and brings an elf in for a 'good cop' interrogation. He wipes away the blood, tells him it doesn't have to be this way, and starts preaching the cult of Melkor. The elf is obviously terrified of Tevildo (who is prowling in the corner), but responds hesitantly to Sauron's overture.

7.2 (1 page)
Ulmo, annoyed with the elvish migration project, wants nothing to do with it, but tells Ossë and Uinen to help out Oromë if he needs them. They meet Oromë on the shore of Middle Earth, but we don't see their conversation.

7.3 (1 page)
Olwë leads the Teleri across Eriador to the Ered Luin. Tom Bombadil cameo.

8. Midpoint (4 pages)
On their return, Elwë's party is nearing the camp in Estolad when they reach the forest of Nan Elmoth. They hear nightingales singing. They approach a glade in the forest, but only Elwë can enter. The others are turned around and stumbling, confused, and unable to see what is in the glade. Elwë's party searches and calls for him, but to no avail. They decide they have to report back to Olwë (who is in the camp nearby).
Melian's POV: Elwë is in awe and reaches out his hand...

Act Three
9. (4 pages)
When Olwë hears the news, he is stricken, immediately assuming his brother is lost forever. He thinks this the work of the Dark Hunter. Celeborn speaks up, assuring him that this was *nothing* like the Hunter, and that there is still hope if they keep searching for Elwë. Olwë gives them permission to search, and makes the decision to stay in the camp in the interim.

10. Second pinch point (4 pages)
The [Vanyar and] Noldor have arrived at the Bay and are waiting on the shore. Now what? Much confusion over how to cross the Sea. Oromë leaves camp.
Frame: Arwen looks into the Mirror of Galadriel and witnesses her mother's rescue from the den of the orcs at the hands of her brothers

11. (4 pages)
Back at Anduin: The Nandor have succeeded in teaching speech to the ents! It's still slow going, and their communication is limited, but the entwives are in turn teaching the Nandor farming. Best inter-species collaboration ever!

12. (4 pages)
Mouth of Sirion/Bay of Balar: Oromë returns. Suddenly, a massive island appears! Ossë went to fetch the volcanic island Melkor made in Season 1. The elves are excited to see it, but Finwë is now upset, because the Teleri are nowhere in sight.

Act Four
13. (4 pages)
Olwë realizes that time is passing and a decision must be made. He announces that those who wish to stay and search for Elwë are free to do so, but that the rest of them will soon be leaving to continue the journey (as Elwë would have wanted).

14. Climax 1 (4 pages)
Finwë asks some of his companions if there has been any news, or if anyone knows where the Teleri camp is at present. There is no information. [Ingwë] speaks some kind words about the Teleri, suggesting they will be along shortly.
Oromë urges the elves to get on board the Island Ferry.
Reluctantly, Finwë agrees that it is time to go, and gives the order for the Noldor to board the island.
As it sails away into the sea, he has a moment of doubt and panic, a premonition that he will never see Elwë again, and almost suggests stopping the island or going back to wait. Míriel reassures him.

15. Climax 2 (4 pages)
Olwë leaves camp, and is dismayed that only half the Teleri are coming with him; the other half have chosen to remain behind in the camp and be part of the effort to search for Elwë. Círdan gives Olwë a bit of a pep talk.
Olwë realizes that it's okay if half his people want to stay for Elwë; they're not going to miss out, they're just going to do something different. It's okay for him to leave them behind and they're fine with being left behind.
Frame: Arwen explains to Celeborn that knowing what happened doesn't give her the peace she thought it would - she still feels the same as she did before seeing the vision in the Mirror. She still misses her mother. But she can accept her mother's choice.

Dénouement
16. (Up to 4 pages)
Olwë and Círdan have their first view of the Sea as their people make their way down the River Sirion.
Elwë and Melian frozen together with the trees growing taller around them and fade out to the sound of nightingales.



The frame is now a mess, and we've now linked the Mirror of Galadriel with Angband rather than the disappearance of Elwë, but other than that, I think this is close to being workable.

Edit based on Atanvarno's comments.
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What format would you like this in, Atanvarno? I don't want to make you re-edit/re-format any more than necessary, so...
 
Thank you! I've re-listened to the broadcast, and realized that the critique of the early island trip was not given in a definitive way, but in a 'we can decide later' vein. So I should stop complaining about them vetoing something they did not understand. Yes, there was a lack of understanding - we did not manage to convey to them what it did for the structure of the episode (so that's our fault for not explaining well, I guess). But they basically were asking for a viable explanation before they approved rather than vetoing without listening. So....there is that.

They did not like the idea though (particularly for the way it changed the relationship of the Vanyar and Noldor), so, fine, the rewrite can be offered.



If someone wants to give a last gasp to the idea (to present this with the newly revised episode outline, I guess), I offer the following:

The focus of Episode 4 is on the splintering of the Teleri, and how all the various groups are left behind before reaching the Sea. The disappearance of Elwë happens in the middle of the episode and is the key to how the Teleri get left behind. We wanted to show Finwë's reaction to the Teleri not showing up, and the tension between waiting for his friend and going to Valinor. The Vanyar have no tension, so they push ahead, showing the viewer how the Island Ferry works. Then, in the climax of the episode, Finwë is waiting on the shore for his friend to arrive with the Teleri...when the Island returns. Time is up, and the Noldor begin loading up. We see Olwë make his decision to press on without Elwë. So, now there is tension of...is he going to miss the boat?

Given that...we really, really REALLY can't introduce the 'cross the Sea with a floating island' concept in the end of the episode. It comes out of nowhere, and makes it look like the writers forgot they hadn't invented ocean-going vessels yet and threw in a magic island at that last minute. Showing how it works with the Vanyar establishes all of those details earlier in the episode. Without this, we need to rely on dialogue between Ulmo, Ossë and Oromë to explain the island, and talking about something like this is less interesting than seeing it in action.

Certainly, there are other ways of doing this, and it's not a necessity to make this change to the story. If you would prefer developing the Vanyar/Noldor relations, we can do that. But I wanted to make sure you understood the choice you were making, as the contention during the review was more 'just cut it' without much indication of how to solve this structural problem in a different way.
 
Well, I'm afraid, if anything, this is my fault. I was aware that there was an issue with this prior to the broadcast and sent the following message several days before:




Dear Esteemed Producers,

I will include here a link to the video where this came up, which you are more than welcome to watch (feel free to watch more if you like, but I'm aware that it is a lot of material. The video is not, however, required to make sense of the case I am about to make, so feel free to skip it as well.

Firstly, a little timeline so that we all know what we are talking about just in case you haven't gotten around to reading the outlines yet:

Vanyar arrive on the shores of Beleriand. (They are a smaller, and more motivated group, and thus travel more quickly)

Tol Eressea Ferry introduced. The Vanyar board and cross the sea. No drama.

Nandor abandon the journey west (at least for now).

Finwë gets a visit from Elwë.

Elwë goes missing.

Noldor arrive on the shores of Beleriand.

Olwë decides to move on without Elwë, while some of the Teleri do not.

Tol Eressea Ferry returns, Finwë and the Noldor leave, unaware that Elwë is missing.



Ok, so.. why? Firstly, this allows us to introduce the ferry island in a way that is suitably epic, and not overshadowed by the only Noldorin drama that exists in the episode. We see how it gets there and how it works. We also give the Vanyar something to do that isn't: travel with the Noldor.

If the audience doesn't understand how the ferry island works, there could easily be some confusion as to why Finwë would abandon the Teleri.

Tension-wise, it allows us to mirror Finwë's decision to move on with that of Olwë.

If we use the alternative, either the Noldor have to leave at the beginning of the episode, which will necessitate a diminishing of the dramatic tension there. Or, we have to take a detour from the upward tension train to demonstrate the arrival of this ginormous island (which I think will require at least some explanation to the audience).

In the following episode, it allows us to better highlight the growing differences between the Noldor and the Vanyar. The Vanyar have been living on the hill of Tuna in blissful quiet, the Noldor show up and go, "This place is great, let's build a huge city, and a tower with a light pointed out towards my buddy Elwë, but is totally dedicated to you, Ingwë..." We get to see the Vanyar's growing dissatisfaction with the Noldor as "roommates".

To clarify, the Teleri have not arrived at the sea until we get to episode 5, so Finwë and Olwë are not hanging out together there. We wanted to leave Finwë in the dark about Elwë's disappearance until the Teleri arrive in Valinor.

Hope this explains where our heads were on this. Feel free to watch us meandering through the discussion, but I'll include a link to the segment where this came up .... here:

SilmFilm Script Discussion S02E04 - Part 2


Humbly,
Nick Palazzo




Thanks! I'll mull this over as I read the outlines this week. I'll have some comments on this at the start of next week's episode.

Corey Olsen
President
[email protected]
Signum University
www.signumuniversity.org
Show quoted text






Given the above, I'm frankly a bit mystified about some of the comments made during the podcast, and many of the points I brought up in the email and during the broadcast went unaddressed, while the weaker arguments were focused on.

Having made this case several times, I'm not sure how much more can be accomplished here. The episode, on it's own, is stronger with the seperate trip for the Vanyar, but it is not impossible to write without it. We just need to see the island near the beginning of the episode before the elves do. It lessens the impact, but it isn't the Lamps of Almaren.
 
I prefer to solve this problem the way we discussed two weeks ago, by making Ingwe's relationship to Elwe and Finwe much closer so that it's less bizarre that he and Elwe, and by extension, the Vanyar and the Noldor, are milling about together. I would argue it's more interesting for them to arrive at the sea and have either Osse or Ulmo present the island to them, have it being pulled up to the coast before their eyes so we understand the basics of how it works pretty quickly, and then just have them both insist on waiting for Elwe until the end of the episode. I'm not convinced that the Episode is stronger for having the separate trip, per se, and I think the angle that the execs have suggested makes for a better overall depiction of the relationships between the high kings.

Just so nobody is surprised when I turn my coat and assail your flanks next weekend. 😉

Edit: How exactly are we concerned that people are going to be confused about an island that is being used as a boat, by they way? This particular element has struck me as kind of a bizarre defense of the decision to have two trips.
 
I say we send them MithLuin's defence of the original along with the revised outline then accept one of the two:
  • They are content with the original
  • They are content with the revision
I'm not really interested in any further revision: we've got enough to be getting on with what with a total rewrite of episode two, episode six still needs properly breaking (I'll get on with that some point this weekend) and we're discussing episode seven (which seems like it wants to do a lot but might be hard to find a coherent narrative out of) tomorrow. There's only so much time I have available and this episode is way down the list since we now have two viable outlines I consider acceptable.
ouzaru said:
I prefer to solve this problem the way we discussed two weeks ago, by making Ingwe's relationship to Elwe and Finwe much closer so that it's less bizarre that he and Elwe, and by extension, the Vanyar and the Noldor, are milling about together. I would argue it's more interesting for them to arrive at the sea and have either Osse or Ulmo present the island to them, have it being pulled up to the coast before their eyes so we understand the basics of how it works pretty quickly, and then just have them both insist on waiting for Elwe until the end of the episode. I'm not convinced that the Episode is stronger for having the separate trip, per se, and I think the angle that the execs have suggested makes for a better overall depiction of the relationships between the high kings.
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Ingwë's relationship with the others will be dealt with by the episode two rewrite. If you want to redraft along that model, crack on and we'll all pitch in, comment and make it as good as it can be. My initial concern is I think the acts might come out quite uneven and you'll struggle to get a rising through-line of conflict (very much a signature of this episode in general throughout its iterations). But that's just a first impression, I hope I'm wrong and you produce something that solves all our problems.

Edit: How exactly are we concerned that people are going to be confused about an island that is being used as a boat, by they way? This particular element has struck me as kind of a bizarre defense of the decision to have two trips.
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My issue isn't that the audience will be confused, it's that without a setup the magical moving island turning up at the climax is deus ex machina. We can't have new story elements appear in act four that weren't established earlier. We lose credibility with the audience.

I'm not worried about the audience being dumb, I'm worried about them thinking we are.
 
I don't really see how the island qualifies as Deus Ex Machina other than in the most literal sense. It is the next step on the journey, and a further complication in the "Elwe is missing" plot, not a resolution.

Edit: saying we "can't" do something simply because it appears to defy narrative convention at first glance is a poor defense. I'm very comfortable setting up the appearance of the island thematically as the "end of the journey" across middle earth and a "crossing the threshold" moment rather than explicitly referencing the existence of the island. If we absolutely must do so, I think a better option would be to use Ulmo-dreams to portend the location they are searching for and the promise of a gift than having a whole extra trip.
 
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ouzaru said:
I don't really see how the island qualifies as Deus Ex Machina other than in the most literal sense. It is the next step on the journey, and a further complication in the "Elwe is missing" plot, not a resolution.

Edit: saying we "can't" do something simply because it appears to defy narrative convention at first glance is a poor defense. I'm very comfortable setting up the appearance of the island thematically as the "end of the journey" across middle earth and a "crossing the threshold" moment rather than explicitly referencing the existence of the island. If we absolutely must do so, I think a better option would be to use Ulmo-dreams to portend the location they are searching for and the promise of a gift than having a whole extra trip.
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Well, firstly, we set up the early island trip to solve the structural problem. There are other ways to do it, of course, but it wasn't without cause.

The island ferry is only Deus Ex Machina if we don't explain it, and the climax of the episode is not the time to do setup.

As far as the use of Ulmo-dreams, I feel like we're already doing that quite a lot. The hosts want dreams from Ulmo appearing in episodes 3 and 5, I'd more or less rather not dip into that well in episode 4, making it thrice in a row.

It's a simple enough matter to show a conversation between Ulmo, Ossë, and Uínen and then show them fetching said island.
 
Ulmo's disapproval of the Elvish Migration to Valinor should be clear in this episode...so as long as that is conveyed in his conversation with Ossë and Uinen, we don't need dreams. But it will be a little awkward to write a conversation in which Ulmo orders Ossë to start up the Valinorean Ferry Island Service while at the same time disapproving of this action. Hmmm...I guess this is the 'Ulmo is obedient, even when he thinks the other Valar are idiots' moment.

Where do Ulmo, Ossë and Uinen hang out to talk, anyway? Are the bobbing about in the open sea, in Ulmo's deep underwater throneroom, chilling on the shores of islands just off the coast of Middle Earth, or...?

The actions of Ulmo, Oromë and Ossë will make it clear that the Valar have considered the 'how do you cross the ocean?' question before the Vanyar and Noldor arrive on the shore, so that's enough set up for me.

Since version two features more character development (particularly with Ulmo and Ingwë), it might be the better idea regardless. And avoiding explicitly contradicting the published Silmarillion is likely a positive. I don't mind the separate trips being vetoed; I was more annoyed that they were vetoed without much (apparent) consideration as to why we had suggested doing it that way in the first place.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Well, firstly, we set up the early island trip to solve the structural problem. There are other ways to do it, of course, but it wasn't without cause.

The island ferry is only Deus Ex Machina if we don't explain it, and the climax of the episode is not the time to do setup.

As far as the use of Ulmo-dreams, I feel like we're already doing that quite a lot. The hosts want dreams from Ulmo appearing in episodes 3 and 5, I'd more or less rather not dip into that well in episode 4, making it thrice in a row.

It's a simple enough matter to show a conversation between Ulmo, Ossë, and Uínen and then show them fetching said island.
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I think this is probably the best solution so far, giving the Valar space to do stuff is definitely a good thing, and I'm inclined to agree that Ulmo dreams should not be overused.

Marie, after the argument over how to make the orcs, I've found that there is an implied "isn't there a better way to do this?" attached to every disagreement over content. People are not merely scrapping your hard work thoughtlessly (even when they are), they're offering you a chance to dig into what you've written, analyst it's effectiveness, and come up with comething better.
 
I like the way the Teleri on the coastlands are described and how Beleg and Mablung are introduced early on.What makes me feel kind of uncomfortable is the idea that Melkor had his hands in the making of Tol Eressea in some way ;-) but I love how it is the Teleri who teach the Ents and how Mahtan is an active Persona so early on. I'd like short mentioning or alluding to Caradhras, at last it was Morgoth who made the Misty mountains if I remember correctly to hinder Orome's hunti9ng expeditions.
 
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