Gondolin

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Well the only common thing is really that both cities are circular. ATLANTIS however is obviously flat and on the coast while Gondolin is on the top of a hill... in a way it's a romanticized hill-top settlement, like there were many historical ones..

The Atlantis map could be used for cities on numenor when we get to that ppint in the far future...
 

Octoburn

Active Member
Honestly, I'm really not in favor of that design. The Silmarillion says, "Turgon appointed its name to be Ondolinde ... the Rock of the Music of Water, for there were fountains upon the hill." In "The Fall of Gondolin" from The Book of Lost Tales mentions that there are "threadlike waterfalls seeking the plain from the fountains of Amon Gwareth," and describes some of the city as follows:

"Now the streets of Gondolin were paved with stone and wide, kerbed with marble, and fair houses and courts amid gardens of bright flowers were set about the ways, and many towers of great slenderness and beauty builded of white marble and carved most marvelously rose to the heaven. Squares there were lit with fountains and the home of birds that sang amid the branches of their aged trees, but of all these the greatest was that place where stood the king's palace, and the tower thereof was the loftiest in the city, and the fountains that played before the doors shot twenty fathoms and seven in the air and fell in a singing rain of crystal: therein did the sun glitter splendidly by day, and the moon most magically shimmered by night."

I think waterworks are an integral part of Gondolin, but they should be slender and elegant and musical. I don't think there should be nearly that much standing water.
See, what I'm suggesting isn't replication. Despite what we like, the hosts said they liked the presence of some standing water in the Gondolin pictures that were presented. I don't want waterways, Venice style, that people would travel by, or have to travel through and what not. What I'm suggesting is the concentric circles, which most of the concepts of Gondolin already had, so I'm not even sure why I brought it up ‍♂ What I'm suggesting might not even be standing water, but a redirecting of the springs into the layout of the city, again similar to how the art at the beginning of the thread shows it.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I think that we could incorporate some waterways in Gondolin if we focused on fountains and springs and waterfalls, not still water. After all, the Gondolindrim don't want mosquitoes and biting flies! So, in Haerangil's map design, there are several different layers to the city. Having waterfalls from the higher levels to the lower levels certainly would fit the description. :) And to get a waterfall...you need a stream of water.

There is a unique pump that was used in the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. Let me go look up the design for that....

Edit: Yeah, Archimedes screw pump is wanted for irrigation on higher levels, I think.
Here's a nice simple variation:




Alternately, it can be a chain with buckets, but the screw pump is a more elegant solution.
 
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Octoburn

Active Member
I think that we could incorporate some waterways in Gondolin if we focused on fountains and springs and waterfalls, not still water. After all, the Gondolindrim don't want mosquitoes and biting flies! So, in Haerangil's map design, there are several different layers to the city. Having waterfalls from the higher levels to the lower levels certainly would fit the description. :) And to get a waterfall...you need a stream of water.

There is a unique pump that was used in the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. Let me go look up the design for that....

Edit: Yeah, Archimedes screw pump is wanted for irrigation on higher levels, I think.
Here's a nice simple variation:




Alternately, it can be a chain with buckets, but the screw pump is a more elegant solution.
How do they keep either of these turning continuously? Because if they stop moving... Standing water. I think the best thing would be to have a natural spring (or springs) originate at the highest point of the Hill. They could build around it, redirecting the spring to the places they want.

How the heck elves engineer a fountain that shoots 30 fathoms (about 180 feet) in the air, I have no idea.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
How do they keep either of these turning continuously? Because if they stop moving... Standing water. I think the best thing would be to have a natural spring (or springs) originate at the highest point of the Hill. They could build around it, redirecting the spring to the places they want.

How the heck elves engineer a fountain that shoots 30 fathoms (about 180 feet) in the air, I have no idea.
Natural springs are formed by the overflow of groundwater. Usually, they occur below the water table, and the force of gravity is what causes enough pressure to build up that the water seeks a way to the surface.


For a spring to flow from the top of hill, that point would need to be the weakest place the water could exit from. I found this diagram, which illustrates a way an artesian well could exist at the top of a hill. Perhaps Amon Gwareth could be something like a larger version of this.


Such a design would require fairly significant water pressure to keep the water flowing from the top. However, Tumladen is ringed with mountains and basically bowl-shaped, so I imagine a lot of water could gather in the valley from the runoff and snowmelt from the Echoriath.

To make a fountain that shoots high into the air, maybe the Gondolindrim could increase the pressure of the natural spring. Perhaps Tumladen could originally have multiple small springs and the Elves could block these springs up or redirect their flow just to the places they want to have their fountains.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, when Corey was discussing what he wanted for Gondolin in the most recent session, I asked him if that meant artesian wells. He seemed amenable to that suggestion.

How do they keep either of these turning continuously? Because if they stop moving... Standing water.
Well, in Babylon, it was slave labor. We probably don't want to go that route! You can have animals turn a wheel, or you can generate power in other ways. I wasn't going to suggest electricity, but that's not the only option here.

How the heck elves engineer a fountain that shoots 30 fathoms (about 180 feet) in the air, I have no idea.
A pump with 200 ft of head, clearly.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yes, when Corey was discussing what he wanted for Gondolin in the most recent session, I asked him if that meant artesian wells. He seemed amenable to that suggestion.



Well, in Babylon, it was slave labor. We probably don't want to go that route! You can have animals turn a wheel, or you can generate power in other ways. I wasn't going to suggest electricity, but that's not the only option here.



A pump with 200 ft of head, clearly.
Perhaps Ulmo charms the water?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Perhaps Ulmo charms the water?
I don't think we should rely completely on Ulmo's magic as an explanation, but perhaps his power could be involved in making the fountains shoot higher than should be physically possible. The Gondolindrim might also be able to magically enhance their own fountains.
 

Haakon

Administrator
Staff member
Natural springs are formed by the overflow of groundwater. Usually, they occur below the water table, and the force of gravity is what causes enough pressure to build up that the water seeks a way to the surface.


For a spring to flow from the top of hill, that point would need to be the weakest place the water could exit from. I found this diagram, which illustrates a way an artesian well could exist at the top of a hill. Perhaps Amon Gwareth could be something like a larger version of this.


Such a design would require fairly significant water pressure to keep the water flowing from the top. However, Tumladen is ringed with mountains and basically bowl-shaped, so I imagine a lot of water could gather in the valley from the runoff and snowmelt from the Echoriath.

To make a fountain that shoots high into the air, maybe the Gondolindrim could increase the pressure of the natural spring. Perhaps Tumladen could originally have multiple small springs and the Elves could block these springs up or redirect their flow just to the places they want to have their fountains.
Just the other day I saw a program about the Minoans and their waterworks. Their city Knossos was situated on a hilltop but they used the high water levels of the adjacent mountains in just the way you describe. Although it does fall snow on the mountains of Crete, the Encircling Mts should provide a lot more, relatively speaking, and the Encircling Mts are also probably a bit taller, and my guess is that the elves shouldn’t have any trouble creating the fountains using the natural forces of the water.
 
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