How do the characters talk?

This question was raised again, and really needs to be answered satisfactorily.

Not only do we have to figure out how to depict the languages on screen, but also how to introduce the significance of the changing languages. Not for the Valar, so much, but how do we show the independent development of Quenya and Sindarin? How do we make this a plot point before Thingol decrees that Quenya is forbidden in his realm?
 
Yes Thingol's decree can't come out of the blue, the viewer's mustn't go "Quenya? What's Quenya?".
 
I agree with Atanvarno's suggestion of having the 'main' language always be English, and then using subtitled dialogue for conversations that are not meant to be understood by the main character(s). I think that is the most straightforward way of proceeding. The only confusion will come when English switches from being the language of the Noldor to the language of the Sindar, but....we can explain in the Frame.

In this season, we have the beginning of that divide, but no characters speaking to each other who do not understand one another. So, we shouldn't need to use subtitled dialogue in Season 2...but we *also* should not waste the opportunity to introduce the variations in elvish languages...in the Frame.

Galadriel's native language is Quenya, and when she sings 'Namárië' to the Fellowship, she uses it. Celeborn's native language is Sindarin, and he was around in Doriath when Thingol banned Quenya. Arwen's first language is...??? Sindarin, maybe? All three of our main frame characters can speak Quenya and Sindarin (and likely some other languages/dialects) fluently, though Quenya has gone out of 'daily' use, of course.

If the main theme of the Frame is Arwen weighing the pros and cons of going to Valinor vs staying in Middle Earth...then the question of language, and which language is the 'true' elvish language can arise quite naturally there. We can have a little discussion about elvish creativity extending to linguistics, and a desire to develop the best language resulting in the evolution of separate languages where the elves have separated geographically. It can come up that, hey, funny how we are using the SINDARIN names for everyone in this story, even the Noldor of Valinor, and Galadriel can reveal that when she lived in Valinor, she went by a different name (Alatáriel would be my choice, but also Nerwen or Artanis are available). In other words, some hint of what is to come can be revealed here, though the 'why' of it will wait for seasons 3 & 4.


Dwarves should only use Khuzdul when there is no one else around to overhear them, but....I am fine with letting 'private' dwarf conversations be subtitled just to make them seem more secretive. If we happen to have an all-dwarf episode, where we are looking at life in, say, Belegost, then...we might want to use English for the dwarves there, as they would 'naturally' understand one another. This is a question for Season 3, of course.


And then there is Westron, but probably no need to introduce that until we have hobbits in Season 4. :p
 
MithLuin said:
ll three of our main frame characters can speak Quenya and Sindarin (and likely some other languages/dialects) fluently, though Quenya has gone out of 'daily' use, of course.

If the main theme of the Frame is Arwen weighing the pros and cons of going to Valinor vs staying in Middle Earth...then the question of language, and which language is the 'true' elvish language can arise quite naturally there. We can have a little discussion about elvish creativity extending to linguistics, and a desire to develop the best language resulting in the evolution of separate languages where the elves have separated geographically. It can come up that, hey, funny how we are using the SINDARIN names for everyone in this story, even the Noldor of Valinor, and Galadriel can reveal that when she lived in Valinor, she went by a different name (Alatáriel would be my choice, but also Nerwen or Artanis are available). In other words, some hint of what is to come can be revealed here, though the 'why' of it will wait for seasons 3 & 4.
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Very good; I think it's beginning to sound like the Frame should be used to dig into the language differences, absolutely.
 
That was Trish's suggestion, and for Season 2 it seems to be the right idea. For Season 3, we can pick up the 'show, don't tell' injunction when the Noldor are reunited with the Sindar and....OH, hey, we speak different languages now!
 
I'm tempted to kick the can at the Hosts on this one.

I dunno. I find it hard to speculate about this without trying some of the different options out loud with someone.
 
They specifically asked that we discuss this on the message board to give them suggestions on HOW to introduce the idea of language evolution into this project.

Tolkien had Fëanor get upset at people 'mispronouncing' his mother's name, as the 'thorn' disappeared from Míriel Serindë. It's a very specific example that helps with character development, but I'm not sure we can make that happen on screen. (Life of Brian 'Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer' aside.)
 
Should have known they kicked the can first.

First blush, the only two solutions that come to me are:
a) Accents. English is a language that has a large number of extremely distinctive accents that we can use, and not just those found on the British Isles. There's potential for a lot of fun, here, and I really think it's my preferred choice. I would go so far as to say that the initial meeting could be between actors speaking with a flat, standardized accent facing actors speaking a heavy Scots brogue or something similar. I can see why this would be unappealing to some, but for instantly understandable, easily relateable on-screen representation, it's pretty attractive.

b) The Warcraft Movie handled this by having an orc change over from speaking "orcish"to English in mid-sentence, then having those around him switch to something sort of like Simlish, which sounded vaguely English but was otherwise just gibberish. This worked okay, but was otherwise generally side-stepped by the presence of a translator who actually stood there and said in English what was said in Orcish, and vice versa. It was a tiny bit stiff, but a pleasant attention to detail, I guess.
 
This is still my preference:
Atanvarno said:
In any given episode, be it in the frame or the main narrative, the language of the protagonist is represented as English.
This has the benefit that most dialogue will naturally be in English, but allows Tolkien's languages to showcased occasionally. In the season 1 frame, Estel (or arguably occasionally Gilraen) is the protagonist, hence most dialogue is in English, but there will Elf on Elf conversations in Sindarin. In the main narrative, everyone will speak English as they are all Ainur (or Ilúvatar). This also sidesteps us coming down one side or another on whether Valarin is a spoken language or not.

In later seasons, when the Noldor (Quenya speakers) return, they return to hear Sindarin (subtitled). Then when Quenya falls out of general use, Quenya becomes subtitled.
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I think that it was important to Tolkien that characters not just instantly be able to understand one another when speaking different languages. So, the meeting of the Sindar and the Noldor should probably *not* be handled simply with accents differentiating them. HOWEVER, once they've met and mingled and learned each others languages, then the accents would be a good way of showing who is not speaking the language on screen 'natively'.

So, I do like the accent idea, but I don't think it address the overall issue satisfactorily. I want the viewers to know that the Noldor speak Quenya and that the Sindar speak Sindarin, and that the dwarves have their own secret dwarf language that we don't know too much about.

[Orcs can just speak crudely, but if we want to have some Black Speech, well, I suppose we can work that in. Maybe the orcs don't even 'speak' in their earliest incarnations, but are much more beastly?]

In Season 2, there are a few specific things we can do to start introducing the divergent languages idea.

One, when the Teleri do finally arrive in Alqualondë, they can have a few unique words in their own language that the Noldor do not have. Probably relating to ships or the Sea. So, when a Teleri is speaking of these things (in English), we can slip in a Sindarin word that either needs to be explained on screen or subtitled.

If we decide to have Rumil on screen, he can complain about the changes in the language, or explain the need to write stuff down in the context of 'see, even the next generation speaks differently, and now that we are in Valinor, we are forgetting the Great Journey and what we learned then.'

The Shibboleth of Fëanor (don't mess up my Mom's name!!) might not be great on screen. But if Rumil needs someone to argue with....well, Fëanor is available!

But mostly we have the Frame. All of the names - Fëanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel, etc are the SINDARIN names of these characters. Their Quenya names are Fëanáro, Nolofinwë, Alatáriel, etc. I am fairly certain we don't want to use the characters' Quenya names. But we can mention that we are using their names as they were remembered in Middle Earth, in Sindarin, in the Frame. A discussion of 'what is the *true* language of the elves?' should fit the theme we are trying to develop in the Frame.
 
MithLuin said:
I think that it was important to Tolkien that characters not just instantly be able to understand one another when speaking different languages. So, the meeting of the Sindar and the Noldor should probably *not* be handled simply with accents differentiating them. HOWEVER, once they've met and mingled and learned each others languages, then the accents would be a good way of showing who is not speaking the language on screen 'natively'.

So, I do like the accent idea, but I don't think it address the overall issue satisfactorily. I want the viewers to know that the Noldor speak Quenya and that the Sindar speak Sindarin, and that the dwarves have their own secret dwarf language that we don't know too much about.

[Orcs can just speak crudely, but if we want to have some Black Speech, well, I suppose we can work that in. Maybe the orcs don't even 'speak' in their earliest incarnations, but are much more beastly?]

In Season 2, there are a few specific things we can do to start introducing the divergent languages idea.

One, when the Teleri do finally arrive in Alqualondë, they can have a few unique words in their own language that the Noldor do not have. Probably relating to ships or the Sea. So, when a Teleri is speaking of these things (in English), we can slip in a Sindarin word that either needs to be explained on screen or subtitled.

If we decide to have Rumil on screen, he can complain about the changes in the language, or explain the need to write stuff down in the context of 'see, even the next generation speaks differently, and now that we are in Valinor, we are forgetting the Great Journey and what we learned then.'

The Shibboleth of Fëanor (don't mess up my Mom's name!!) might not be great on screen. But if Rumil needs someone to argue with....well, Fëanor is available!

But mostly we have the Frame. All of the names - Fëanor, Fingolfin, Galadriel, etc are the SINDARIN names of these characters. Their Quenya names are Fëanáro, Nolofinwë, Alatáriel, etc. I am fairly certain we don't want to use the characters' Quenya names. But we can mention that we are using their names as they were remembered in Middle Earth, in Sindarin, in the Frame. A discussion of 'what is the *true* language of the elves?' should fit the theme we are trying to develop in the Frame.
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I mean, a heavy Scots brogue is basically unintelligible to me. If there was a nice sister-language to English in the way that Spanish and Portuguese or even Spanish and Italian are sister languages, I'd vote we go with that, but there really isn't one. We could try Middle English to get the effect of "every other word" the way you do with Spanish and Italian (or Cantonese and Mandarin), but frankly I just don't care for the way Middle English sounds. The issue I'm having is really that I think having the characters speak English and then be confronted by Quenya or vice versa with Sindarin doesn't fit the vibe very well.

I think we should avoid having the orcs speak much at first, primarily because there really aren't any meditations on what the orcs are or what their culture is, and certainly an Elvish perspective on them isn't very interested in these questions. I think we should address those points eventually, but now, while we're establishing the Elves, really isn't the time for it.
 
ouzaru said:
The issue I'm having is really that I think having the characters speak English and then be confronted by Quenya or vice versa with Sindarin doesn't fit the vibe very well.
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How about viewing the conversation from each side in turn?

From the Quenya-speakers' POV, have them talk in English and the Sindarin chaps talk in Welsh.

Then switch POV, have the Sindarin-speakers ask each other in English what the Quenya chaps are saying, and have the latter talking in Finnish ;-)

I think I have the "real world analogue" languages the correct way around…

I think we should avoid having the orcs speak much at first, primarily because there really aren't any meditations on what the orcs are or what their culture is, and certainly an Elvish perspective on them isn't very interested in these questions. I think we should address those points eventually, but now, while we're establishing the Elves, really isn't the time for it.
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Apropos your comment above, you could have them talking Glaswegian, or some variant on "Scots English": it's definitely "Common Tongue" but not easy to make out for the amateur ;-)
 
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Yes, Sindarin is Welsh-like and Quenya is Finnish-like, so you have the correct analogues. But the connection between Welsh and Sindarin is more in the grammar than in how it sounds - both make heavy use of lenition.

But why not just use Sindarin and Quenya for those conversations? I mean, if we're trying to show Tolkien's invented languages on screen, without using any of Tolkien's invented languages.....that's just....weird. :p Every single place and character name is in either Quenya or Sindarin (mostly Sindarin).

I am not going to say that Peter Jackson's films used the exact right amount of subtitled Elvish, but the point is that you *can* use subtitled elvish in a largely English-language film, and it's not overly weird. He has characters switch from English to {other languages} mid-conversation, and the viewer can follow easily enough. Game of Thrones uses Valyrian sometimes without losing the viewer. Star Trek has Klingon. Avatar (which I've never seen) also did something with its own language. It's not even *groundbreaking* to have an invented language in a film!

I realize that the actors are not going to be best pleased if we hand them scripts with pages of dialogue in Sindarin. Moderation is important here. But I am not understanding the resistance to occasionally having a conversation in Quenya or Sindarin, with the vast majority of the show still in English.
 
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Options:
  1. The ENTIRE show is in English. No character ever says any lines in any language that is not English. Names are translated into English (ie, Unnumbered Tears rather than Nírnaeth Arnoediad, Black Sword rather than Mormegil). There are no indications of language differences between characters.
  2. The show is almost entirely in English. There are some elvish place names, and the battle cries (Aurë entuluva!). English accents are used to denote different language speakers.
  3. The show is mostly in English. Side conversations or meetings between different cultures have at least the first line in subtitled elvish (Sindarin/Quenya), followed by accented English.
  4. The primary language of the show is English, but there are many instances where conversations are held in other languages (Sindarin/Quenya with English subtitles). Untranslated lines may be used sparingly.
  5. The primary language of the main story is not English, but the frame is in English. English represents the 'Westron' of the 3rd Age, and Quenya, Sindarin, and Adunaic are spoken in the primary story (as appropriate). Untranslated lines show when people on screen are not speaking the same language.
  6. The show is entirely in 'foreign' languages with subtitles.
No one wants #6. Yes, yes, it *can* be done. Mel Gibson managed to film both The Passion of the Christ and Apocolypto this way. But still, there is zero interest in trying that for this project. Those were R-rated films with a limited audience. Filming in dead languages is a challenge; filming in incompletely invented languages would be more like a nightmare. So, NO, we're not doing that, but it's on the spectrum of ways to handle this question. #5 is equally too difficult to pull off.

I think that while #1 could work for a TV show, it would definitely lose a key component of Tolkien's world, making the story flatter and falling closer to generic fantasy rather than anything that had to do with Tolkien's work. So, yes, we *could* make that choice - but why would we want to?!

That leaves options #2-#4. I think that #2 is too weak; too much is lost, and not enough of the elvish culture will show up. My preference is option #4, but I think either #3 or #4 could be done well.
 
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The issue I have is that I would like the audience to feel what the elves would be feeling, which is that these words should be intelligible, but are just out of reach, so to speak. If I really, really pay attention to a Taiwanese speaker, my knowledge of Mandarin allows me to make a best guess based on cognates that have only slightly shifted from whatever base vocabulary the two languages shared however many hundreds of years ago before they branched. It's an interesting feeling, and it's one I'd prefer to communicate as directly as possible, which you cannot get from Sindarin if you're a native English speaker.

Having said that, it is a very personal language nerd thing that I may well have to give up. But that's what I'm angling for with this approach.
 
Ah....I see what you mean. And based on your description of what they did in Warcraft, they were trying for that. I know a little Spanish, so I always get the impression I can understand Spanish speakers, but really...I cannot. I understand a handful of words, but usually the incidental ones, not the significant ones. If they speak slowly, I do better, but I cannot pretend to understand (say) a soccer announcer. Same with me trying to 'read' French. I pretend I can understand Le Petit Prince, but really I just try to recall the story in English and see if I can make sense of it. (Clearly, I am *not* a language nerd!)


As to how to do that with Sindarin, it would take some major cleverness on our part. We would have to teach the audience a handful of very specific Sindarin words, and then use all of those words in the first meeting with the Noldor. Not...impossible, but daunting. We have Season 2 to introduce that there are 2 different languages, and we can teach a few words there. We also have the beginning of Season 3 with the Sindar before they meet the Noldor, and we could certainly get the names squared away then. Perhaps we could show greetings between the Sindar in Sindarin (Mae govannen), and then when they greet the Noldor, the audience will have heard that before, at least? Whereas the Noldor would use the 'A star shines on the hour of our meeting' greeting?
 
MithLuin said:
That leaves options #2-#4. I think that #2 is too weak; too much is lost, and not enough of the elvish culture will show up. My preference is option #4, but I think either #3 or #4 could be done well.
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I would love to have as much spoken Quenya and Sindarin as possible, so I vote for option #4 as well.
 
So now the challenge is....how?

How do we incorporate these languages in a way that makes sense? How do we teach the viewer the difference between Quenya and Sindarin? Because if they do not understand that there are 2 different elvish languages...then we have missed the point.
 
MithLuin said:
But why not just use Sindarin and Quenya for those conversations? I mean, if we're trying to show Tolkien's invented languages on screen, without using any of Tolkien's invented languages.....that's just....weird. :p Every single place and character name is in either Quenya or Sindarin (mostly Sindarin).
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(sorry for the late reply)

My main reason was that you can actually create entire conversations in those languages, which I am not aware of being possible in Quenya or Sindarin since we simply don't have enough vocabulary. I would be very happy to be proven wrong, however!
 
About the development of differences: In the session, Dr Olsen said that we can't show language division until around episode 4. I'm not sure. Already in episode one, the diffrent elven tribes are going to have different areas of interest - the Noldor are into shaping and constructing, the Teleri are singers and like water, and the Vanyar are poets (and star-gazers?). They are also seperate families. These areas of interest and family memberships will have shaped the way they express themselves, if not the language on a more fundamental level. The Noldor will have a certain way of expressing themselves, recognizable idioms, special phrasing and so on, which will be different from the way the Teleri express themselves. Then, during the journey, another difference can be shown: how the intonation changes. Maybe the Teleri develops a king of singsong way of speaking, while the Vanyar sound more like they are reciting poetry (just an example). The changes will have to be subtle because otherwise viewers will think, 'hey what happened to those guys, why are they talking like that all of a sudden?' but it has to be a change that is noticeable. They will have to be big enough to make a greater change (when the division of the elves is complete) seem like a natural thing.
 
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