Internal strife among Men

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Just spitballing this notion I had, based on reading a bunch of threads in a short time, pulling ideas here at there and adding my own.

Sauron needs something to do. Men are coming. By the end, we have three great houses of Men on the good guy side.

What if we had four great houses at first, and Sauron turns one of them? Like, four legitimate good guy houses at first, and Sauron steals one through his continual... Amlach-ishness. Amlachery. Amlachitude. The others resist, but one whole kindred is lost.

Is that too big a departure?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Just spitballing this notion I had, based on reading a bunch of threads in a short time, pulling ideas here at there and adding my own.

Sauron needs something to do. Men are coming. By the end, we have three great houses of Men on the good guy side.

What if we had four great houses at first, and Sauron turns one of them? Like, four legitimate good guy houses at first, and Sauron steals one through his continual... Amlach-ishness. Amlachery. Amlachitude. The others resist, but one whole kindred is lost.

Is that too big a departure?
What sort of tasks would this other kindred be doing? What would they look like?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Also, the main thing believed about those of the Edain who did not fight Morgoth became the Northmen, like the people of Rohan and the Men of Dale.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Something I've been toying with is sort of modifying the role of those later swarthy dudes. Not sure. It just seems like since we're inventing things for Sauron to do, we could make one of those things be actually impactful and important, but not in a way that hugely changes the outcome of the story (ie. we still end up with the three kindreds, but it would have been four if not for Sauron).
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Do you mean that four houses arrive in Beleriand then Sauron turns one, or do you mean he turns this fourth house before they arrive. In the latter case, I think this house could just be the people of Bor and Ulfang.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Do you mean that four houses arrive in Beleriand then Sauron turns one, or do you mean he turns this fourth house before they arrive. In the latter case, I think this house could just be the people of Bor and Ulfang.
Perhaps Sauron coerces the Easterlings to his cause, which plays into them fighting for him in ages to come?
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Do you mean that four houses arrive in Beleriand then Sauron turns one, or do you mean he turns this fourth house before they arrive. In the latter case, I think this house could just be the people of Bor and Ulfang.
It could be either, I suppose, but it would be more impactful (especially for non-readers) if it was four great kindreds of Elf-friends at the start and only three at the end.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
It could be either, I suppose, but it would be more impactful (especially for non-readers) if it was four great kindreds of Elf-friends at the start and only three at the end.
What sort of events do you propose for their elimination?
 

NotACat

Active Member
It could be either, I suppose, but it would be more impactful (especially for non-readers) if it was four great kindreds of Elf-friends at the start and only three at the end.
I feel that would be too great a change to the story.

For me, the Three Houses of the Edain mirror the Three Kindreds of the Elves. If we have an equivalent to the Avari (who refused to set out on the Great Journey) or the Úmanyar (who set out but dropped out along the way) that might work, but I don't think inventing a whole new House would sit well.

You might as well invent a fourth Kindred, to give poor Bobwë a family ;)
 

Octoburn

Active Member
Do you mean that four houses arrive in Beleriand then Sauron turns one, or do you mean he turns this fourth house before they arrive. In the latter case, I think this house could just be the people of Bor and Ulfang.
I could get behind showing the Easterlings communicating with Morgoth/Sauron earlier than shown in the Silmarillion.
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I think we're going to find the transition between S05 and S06 extremely difficult in a lot of ways. A lot of compression is going to happen one way or another, so I'd be really careful about working on this transition in a vacuum, not considering the season arc of S05.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I think we're going to find the transition between S05 and S06 extremely difficult in a lot of ways. A lot of compression is going to happen one way or another, so I'd be really careful about working on this transition in a vacuum, not considering the season arc of S05.
There is bound to be some in media res going on for sure, like the events pertaining to The Children of Hurin (Hurin and Huor in Gondolin, the attack where Galdor the Tall is killed and Hurin becomes Lord of Dor-Lomin).
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
There is bound to be some in media res going on for sure, like the events pertaining to The Children of Hurin (Hurin and Huor in Gondolin, the attack where Galdor the Tall is killed and Hurin becomes Lord of Dor-Lomin).
This is why I think we ought to postpone some of those events to Season 7 and begin that season by going back in time to right after the Dagor Bragollach. It could encompass Hurin and Huor in Gondolin, Hurin becoming lord of Dor-lomin, Turin's childhood, the arrival of the Easterlings and formation of the Union of Maedhros, and then end with a few episodes devoted to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
This is why I think we ought to postpone some of those events to Season 7 and begin that season by going back in time to right after the Dagor Bragollach. It could encompass Hurin and Huor in Gondolin, Hurin becoming lord of Dor-lomin, Turin's childhood, the arrival of the Easterlings and formation of the Union of Maedhros, and then end with a few episodes devoted to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
So Season 8 would begin with the departure of Turin?
 

Octoburn

Active Member
This is why I think we ought to postpone some of those events to Season 7 and begin that season by going back in time to right after the Dagor Bragollach. It could encompass Hurin and Huor in Gondolin, Hurin becoming lord of Dor-lomin, Turin's childhood, the arrival of the Easterlings and formation of the Union of Maedhros, and then end with a few episodes devoted to the Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
I've always had issues trying to fit The Nirnaeth into series format. The guy who did the Silmarillion series website tacked it onto the end of the B&L season, which I felt was not giving the battle it's due. But I also feel the season 7 you outlined is pretty lacking in content, until the battle itself. I think it would be very hard to fill out 13 episodes like that.

My personal outline I did a few years ago had B&L intwined with the other Beleriand stories, in 8 episodes/chapters. Then I simply had a 4 episode/chapter miniseries on the Nirnaeth. That's 12 episodes. Maybe we could close out the B&L story in 8-9 episodes and have 4 episodes dedicated to the Nirnaeth at the end? It still feels tacked on, and a separate story to me, though.

We are putting the cart Waaaaay ahead of the horse here, aren't we? :D
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I've always had issues trying to fit The Nirnaeth into series format. The guy who did the Silmarillion series website tacked it onto the end of the B&L season, which I felt was not giving the battle it's due. But I also feel the season 7 you outlined is pretty lacking in content, until the battle itself. I think it would be very hard to fill out 13 episodes like that.

My personal outline I did a few years ago had B&L intwined with the other Beleriand stories, in 8 episodes/chapters. Then I simply had a 4 episode/chapter miniseries on the Nirnaeth. That's 12 episodes. Maybe we could close out the B&L story in 8-9 episodes and have 4 episodes dedicated to the Nirnaeth at the end? It still feels tacked on, and a separate story to me, though.

We are putting the cart Waaaaay ahead of the horse here, aren't we? :D
Might as well figure some of these kinks out.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I've always had issues trying to fit The Nirnaeth into series format. The guy who did the Silmarillion series website tacked it onto the end of the B&L season, which I felt was not giving the battle it's due. But I also feel the season 7 you outlined is pretty lacking in content, until the battle itself. I think it would be very hard to fill out 13 episodes like that.
My last post was not really an outline so much as suggestions for things that could happen in the season. There are many other things we could include, e.g., Gelmir captured and Gwindor's reaction, Fingon becoming high king, the arrival of the Swarthy Men, the doings of the Haladin, the retaking of Dorthonoin, Thingol getting dangerously obsessed with the Silmaril, Galadriel and Celeborn in the east, Sauron in the east, a Gondolin storyline of some kind, etc.

I think there is plenty of content to flesh out a season. Most of these are not events; they are arcs that would be told over one or more episodes. Hurin and Huor in Gondolin need not be a scene or two; there could be a whole episode or more devoted to the differences between Elven and Human perspectives in Gondolin. Think of how many groups are involved in the Union of Maedhros: Feanorians, Fingon's people, the Edain, Gwindor's company from Nargothrond, Beleg and Mablung, the folk of Bor and Ulfang plus the other Men from the east they send for, and Dwarves of both Nogrod and Belegost. There is a lot to do to get them together, and Maedhros does not even start doing so until after Beren and Luthien get the Silmaril. That could certainly take multiple episodes. Also, the Nirnaeth itself could take sevral episodes. We talked about the Dagor Bragollach taking two episodes, and if it does, the Nirnaeth should take at least as many, if not three or four episodes.

I am also worried about what the Nirnaeth would do to the tone of the Beren and Luthien season. I am afraid it would drastically overshadow the happy(ish) ending of that story, which I think would be a mistake.
 
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