On the passing on of Narsil

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Can he get away with that and still be "fulfilling the oath"?

But more importantly, I think it goes against the spirit of the Kinslaying stories if any son of Feanor doesn't have blood on his hand(s) (unless he died beforehand).
I didn't mean to imply no blood on his hands. I simply meant that perhaps there are many things soaked with blood, including his hands and kitchen utensils and a broken bannister and a goldfish bowl and a chandelier, but NOT including his sword, for a great reason we could contrive.
 

Brian Dimmick

Active Member
Back to the idea of the Eresseans passing Narsil to Numenor--I agree that it is a bit odd for the elves to just decide that a sword is the perfect gift for the Numenorean lord who has everything. But what if the Numenoreans (one of the Lords of Andunie in particular) have a strong historical interest in the events of the First Age and want something like Narsil as a connection to their past in Beleriand? No one would have to ask for a sword directly, but the elves could perceive the Numenorean interest in the past and respond to that. While it wouldn't readily occur to the elves to give Narsil as a gift, they wouldn't have any particular reason to hold onto it either--it represents a part in their history that they might like to forget, or at least not dwell on. And they would have no reason to think that it would actually be used as a sword in Numenor or anywhere else. It could be a case of "You should have this, because you will cherish and appreciate it far more than we will." Some of the elves might find the historical interest odd, though, which could fit into a story we will probably want to tell about the gradual estrangement of the elves even from the faithful Numenoreans. (It might or might not actually be a reason for worry--elves might just be unable to really fathom the interest of men in history they didn't live through).

Obviously this would have to fit in with Second Age storylines that we haven't developed yet, but I think it could be done if we wanted to.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
For the elves, there's also the angle of "we didn't make this sword, and it kind of doesn't belong with us".
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
For the elves, there's also the angle of "we didn't make this sword, and it kind of doesn't belong with us".
There is also an element that we are creating with Ringil in S03, that reforging a sword somehow redeems it from its terrible past. Fingolfin breaks his sword in S03E07 in repentance of the Kinslaying. Later in the season, he will reforge it as Ringil, and wield it against Morgoth.

In a way, if Narsil is involved in a Kinslaying, Elendil carrying it could be seen as evidence that the Dunédain are still holding on to some of the pride and hubris from the past (you can certainly argue that Isildur is, despite his obvious courage).

There is something to be said for the idea that brokenness is followed by redemption.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I want to avoid Narsil being present on the Feanorian side of any Kinslaying. There are so many other options that don't taint it or make it less than desirable for Elros (or anyone else who lived in the Havens) to want.

If Maglor is going to pass along any thing of his very own, I would vote for his harp. Since he burns his hands so badly he can't play.


I like Brian's ideas about the Eresseans passing it. One of the Lords of Andunie might even be a member of the Guild of Swordsmiths, who continued the practice of forging swords as the most difficult, demanding level of metalwork known to Numenor, with no intention of ever using the swords.

It would also work as a gift during the time when the Numenoreans had started helping the Elves in Middle-earth against Sauron. The Eresseans hear about the troubles in Middle-earth (from Numenoreans, or from Elves who flee West) and wish there was something they could do to help, but by sailing West (or dying) they have been removed from direct participation in history. Passing on one of the finest swords they have left might even be a symbol of the dominion passing (gradually) from Elves to Men. Already in the mid-Second Age, Numenoreans have far more power to resist Sauron than the remaining Elves.

If the Eresseans pass it on, whose sword should it have been, initially? Mablung? Finrod Felagund?
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I want to avoid Narsil being present on the Feanorian side of any Kinslaying. There are so many other options that don't taint it or make it less than desirable for Elros (or anyone else from who lived in Havens) to want.

If Maglor is going to pass along any thing of his very own, I would vote for his harp. Since he burns his hands so badly he can't play.


I like Brian's ideas about the Eresseans passing it. One of the Lords of Andunie might even be a member of the Guild of Swordsmiths, who continued the practice of forging swords as the most difficult, demanding level of metalwork known to Numenor, with no intention of ever using the swords.

It would also work as a gift during the time when the Numenoreans had started helping the Elves in Middle-earth against Sauron. The Eresseans hear about the troubles in Middle-earth (from Numenoreans, or from Elves who flee West) and wish there was something they could do to help, but by sailing West (or dying) they have been removed from direct participation in history. Passing on one of the finest swords they have left might even be a symbol of the dominion passing (gradually) from Elves to Men. Already in the mid-Second Age, Numenoreans have far more power to resist Sauron than the remaining Elves.

If the Eresseans pass it on, whose sword should it have been, initially? Mablung? Finrod Felagund?
So, where would the Eresseans get it? I thought there was a ban on weapons in Valinor, hence why Feanor was banished to Formenos.
 

Brian Dimmick

Active Member
If the Eresseans pass it on, whose sword should it have been, initially? Mablung? Finrod Felagund?
How about Aegnor? We would have to have Narsil rescued after his death at the DagorBragollach, and have someone keep it for the rest of the First Age, but I like the idea of the sword of Aegnor, who loved Andreth, then passing from teh elves to the men of Numenor.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Let’s see, the sword of Aegnor or Finrod would be at Nargothrond, then if rescued would cone to Doriath. So like Mablung’s sword they’d have to come to Eressea via the Havens. Well, everyone who survived ended up at the Havens or with Cirdan or the Feanorians.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Let’s see, the sword of Aegnor or Finrod would be at Nargothrond, then if rescued would cone to Doriath. So like Mablung’s sword they’d have to come to Eressea via the Havens. Well, everyone who survived ended up at the Havens or with Cirdan or the Feanorians.
So what great deeds would be attributed to Narsil in the hands of Aegnor?
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Well now.

In today's session, it was mentioned almost in passing in the "Concerning Balrogs" discussion that we might reserve a Balrog for Aegnor. This would be justifiable, because a) we know the time but not the detailed circumstances around Aegnor's death, b) we have a small surplus of Balrogs that we want to kill off on screen before the War of Wrath, and c) we are going to be greatly elevating Aegnor's status compared to the PubSil by including the Andreth love story.

So that would mean that if Narsil was Aegnor's blade, it is also a balrog bane. That's a pretty great deed. Especially for something not made in Gondolin...
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
It was made by Telchar, though, so it can still be more amazing than even the average Noldorin sword. Maybe it was designed as a dragon's-bane, and that happens to make it able to wound Balrogs, too. It has to be good enough to wound Sauron, after all.

But he'd probably need to plunge the Balrog into Tarn Aeluin or Sirion or Rivil's Well, or off a cliff of Dorthonion, in addition. I don't want to defile Tarn Aeluin since it will remain important as a "blessed" place in Beren's story, but we can use a cliff or Rivil's Well (the headwaters of Serech). Technically Serech does flow into Sirion, but once Tol Sirion is defiled Ulmo's power won't extent upriver to the Fen of Serech confluence anyway. So the Sirion itself upriver of the Isle can still be fair game for Balrog-ashes defilement. If Ulmo's power originally extended all the way to Rivil, that would be a significant aid in slaying a Balrog. And there are surely many cliff options in Dorthonion.


I don't see a particular "surplus" of Balrogs, though. We must start with 7 because Tolkien said there aren't more than that, and there's no reason we need any more. After the War of Wrath, only 1 is left, and we have 2 accounted for in Gondolin. The other 4 don't "have" to die in the War of Wrath, but they can all do so.
 
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amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but there are three commonalities to all the published Balrog deaths so far - mutual death, a fall, and weapons forged in Gondolin. This would break one of those three (which is fine, we just should be consciously doing it, not accidentally doing it).
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I think it can work, as long as it doesn't happen on a flat plain. :) We can even put Rivil's Well (or another part of Serech) at the foot of a cliff, to have both a fall and pure water.

We'd need somebody brave to retrieve his body and blade out of deep, near-boiling, poisoned water. I nominate Orodreth, who comes across as a total loser in the Silmarillion. He deserves at least one great deed, darnit.

I am 100% happy with having Aegnor wield Narsil and slay a Balrog with it. :D The Fell-Fire wields the Flame of Sun and Moon against the Flame of Udun. I love it.
 
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amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
(This isn't the place to talk of Balrogs, but the notion of throwing in a dramatic Balrog death here and there across the seasons leading up to the War of Wrath was very well received - only for characters we love who are already slated to die but whose deaths aren't specifically noteworthy in their circumstances, of which Aegnor is the poster child example. We are going with 9 Balrogs rather than 7, even after reading the quote that said 3 to 7, and we only have the fates of 3 of them nailed down. It was suggested that one more Balrog escape death or capture in the War of Wrath, to never be seen again, just to have a bit of mystery in the world. Of the other 5, we can choose to have as many perish in the War of Wrath as we like, and we can "spend" one or two earlier without hurting the War of Wrath. This ability to use a couple more Balrogs was the main reason to go to 9 rather than 7.)
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
(This isn't the place to talk of Balrogs, but the notion of throwing in a dramatic Balrog death here and there across the seasons leading up to the War of Wrath was very well received - only for characters we love who are already slated to die but whose deaths aren't specifically noteworthy in their circumstances, of which Aegnor is the poster child example. We are going with 9 Balrogs rather than 7, even after reading the quote that said 3 to 7, and we only have the fates of 3 of them nailed down. It was suggested that one more Balrog escape death or capture in the War of Wrath, to never be seen again, just to have a bit of mystery in the world. Of the other 5, we can choose to have as many perish in the War of Wrath as we like, and we can "spend" one or two earlier without hurting the War of Wrath. This ability to use a couple more Balrogs was the main reason to go to 9 rather than 7.)
And to mirror the Ringwraiths, right? Maybe Narsil was forged by Telchar and quenched in Tarn Aeluin? There’s no indication of who inhabited Ladros in Dorthonion before Beor’s people arrived in the 4th century FA.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I can accept a tiny increase in Balrogs if we get something good out of it, and still keep them as scary as possible.

Yeah, but there are three commonalities to all the published Balrog deaths so far - mutual death, a fall, and weapons forged in Gondolin. This would break one of those three (which is fine, we just should be consciously doing it, not accidentally doing it).
It's like a game of Clue. We need a great but doomed hero, a blessed weapon, and a suitable location.
 
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Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
I don't want it to become at all common. Honestly, one extra is enough.
Or we could have no extra Balrog deaths, and Aegnor can slay and be slain by a fire-drake instead.
 
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