On Tom Bombadil's brief history of time

[maswan]

Hi, I'm catching up in the podcast feed as fast as I can (just got to Bree), and if this is concerning things too far in the past feel free to ignore for the class. I couldn't see any recommendations for time window for questions here vs "Let's talk..", but please point me that way if this is too old. It could of course have turned up in an episode that I haven't listened to yet, but I did wait for a fair number of episodes, and I haven't found anything about this in the forum.


My observation when the class discussed Tom's enchanting look at the past at the end of chapter 7, regarding this passage:

"and still on and back Tom went singing out into ancient starlight, when only the Elf-sires were awake. Then suddenly he stopped, and they saw that he nodded as if he was falling asleep."​

I found it significant that as Tom goes singing back in time, that he falls silent as he moves past the waking of the Quendi, and while the class did spend some time discussing the nature of the enchantment and if Tom actually fell asleep or not, I could just hear that in the time before the first speakers there were no words in the song.


And, my speculation: Tom Bombadil is still singing (the hobbits are still enchanted), but in the way of the Ainur before they met the elves: With enchantment delivered directly into minds without the need of flapping fleshy bits around to make waves in air. In this way, this might be the closest we get to seeing how the original Song of the Ainur would have appeared to mortals had they been around before the creation.


My question: Am I reading too much into this? The speculation is of course speculative, but I'd love to hear some thoughts on the significance silence before the word (or if it is more likely that Tom needed a nap).

 

[Katriana]

It strikes me that another possibility is that he reached the point in his story that coincided with his own "birth" or "awakening" and thus he didn't know how the song went before that point. It's been way long since I've read the Silmarillion, and haven't read the other early histories yets, so I'm possibly mis-remembering or missing something, but the quotes you provide make it sound like the elf-sires were there already, they just had to be awakened. So perhaps Tom was already there as well and just had to be awoken? That would fit with him being oldest and fatherless...among non-valar/maiar type beings at least.

I can't remember now if such points were already covered in the classes or not, so if they've already been discussed to death, please feel free to ignore

 

[maswan]

If Tom was in the first group among the Ainur to go down into the world, then he would have been around and (most likely) awake for quite some time before the elf-sires woke by the lake-shore, there was certainly lots of Vala and Maia action going on before then including the building and breaking of the lamps.

 

[Faelivrin]

I think both suggestions have merit!

I am convinced that Tom isn't an Ainu. Whatever he is, he's a creature native to Ea.

 

[Haerangil]

I also think that Tom and Goldberry may be something like "spirits of arda". They do not come from the outside like the Ainur but were created as living embodyments of parts of the world, most likely given souls to by eru, but they were not spirits who MADE the world, like the Valar.

 

[amysrevenge]

Personally I'm not firmly convinced one way or the other, as both sides can make convincing arguments. And there are things about both ways that I really like. In a way, I enjoy having this dissonance in my brain where Tom (and Goldberry) are simultaneously of the Ainur and not of the Ainur.

(Come not to me for council.)

 

[maswan]

Sorry, I didn't mean to reopen that old discussion, I thought this was settled by Corey in class, but I guess there might still be opinions on that.

My point was just that since Tom says he "was here before the river and the trees", "made paths before the Big People", and "knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless - before the Dark Lord came from Outside" he was around long before the Elves woke up at Cuiviénen. And he doesn't make the impression of having slept all that time, having performed actions like knowing the dark and making paths (if we can include Elves in "Big People").