S04E11 Script Discussion

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Just what i could say by now by looking at the outline... i never had the impression that Melian's magic works this way! Or she was the kinda person to apply her "maze" to non-enemies..

But as i said, i am curious how you'll make it look at the end of the day!
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
The vibe to go for, I think, is "I'm not an idiot, and neither are you. So stop acting like one." She's not angry, but she is disappointed. She is by definition condescending, in the positive older sense of the word, just by being there, but she isn't condescending in the negative modern sense.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Thanks to everyone for the input on Thingol and Melian's relationship. I'll keep it in mind when I get to writing that scene.

Right now, I'm working on Act I, and I have two questions:

Is Saeros in Doriath at this time? I think I remember it being decided that he had moved there after the Green-elves lost Denethor. If he is, this episode would be a good chance to show him as one of Thingol's counselors.

Could Egalmoth also go to Tumladen with Turgon and Glorfindel and Ecthelion? Since Egalmoth, Glorfindel, and Ecthelion are the three lords who will accompany Aredhel when she leaves Gondolin, having them accompany Turgon in this episode would parallel this later event and be a good chance to develop Egalmoth's character.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Thanks to everyone for the input on Thingol and Melian's relationship. I'll keep it in mind when I get to writing that scene.

Right now, I'm working on Act I, and I have two questions:

Is Saeros in Doriath at this time? I think I remember it being decided that he had moved there after the Green-elves lost Denethor. If he is, this episode would be a good chance to show him as one of Thingol's counselors.

Could Egalmoth also go to Tumladen with Turgon and Glorfindel and Ecthelion? Since Egalmoth, Glorfindel, and Ecthelion are the three lords who will accompany Aredhel when she leaves Gondolin, having them accompany Turgon in this episode would parallel this later event and be a good chance to develop Egalmoth's character.
Saeros would be present, but not sure what side he’d take on the Noldor and Celeborn issues.

I have no problem with Egalmoth if the rest agree.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, Saeros is present in Doriath - feel free to include him at the Breakfast, Hunt, Feast, etc!

As for Egalmoth, I'd say no. We are still establishing Glorfindel and Ecthelion as Turgon's right-hand guys...and we want those two to be the standouts among the Lords of Gondolin.

As for Aredhel's guards - there's a reason CJRT didn't name them in the published Silmarillion. It seems a bit out of character for Glorfindel and Ecthelion to abandon their mission to protect the king's sister because of some giant spiders. Those guards come across as rather timid/incompetent, and it's difficult to reconcile those actions with those characters. So, when it comes time to discuss Aredhel's departure from Gondolin...we may decide to rework who we send along.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
You could use Hendor who rescues Earendil later - so he has to make up something and the option to do so and does.Or Talagand who is shown as quite incompetent anyway...

well and Laiqalasse... doesn't exist in our version !
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yes, Saeros is present in Doriath - feel free to include him at the Breakfast, Hunt, Feast, etc!

As for Egalmoth, I'd say no. We are still establishing Glorfindel and Ecthelion as Turgon's right-hand guys...and we want those two to be the standouts among the Lords of Gondolin.

As for Aredhel's guards - there's a reason CJRT didn't name them in the published Silmarillion. It seems a bit out of character for Glorfindel and Ecthelion to abandon their mission to protect the king's sister because of some giant spiders. Those guards come across as rather timid/incompetent, and it's difficult to reconcile those actions with those characters. So, when it comes time to discuss Aredhel's departure from Gondolin...we may decide to rework who we send along.
On Aredhel’s guards: the published Silmarillion says that they were lords of his households (so they’re pretty high on the totem pole), got separated from Aredhel in Ered Gorgoroth, and were forced to leave without finding her by the creatures of Ungoliant after searching a long time there. It could be weeks, even months. Aredhel stays with Celegorm’s people for most of a year (Celegorm is not actually present and does not appear at all) and Aredhel leaves late in the year; by the end of the year she winds up in Nan Elmoth.

We could have a plot line of them searching and not coming back until say Episode 3 or 4. Either way, Turgon’s not going to be happy with them for not being able to find her. But how much shame would there be in not finding someone in Ered Gorgoroth? By the time they get out Aredhel could be in Nan Elmoth and nobody but Eol, the master of the forest, could find her.
 
Last edited:

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Yes, Saeros is present in Doriath - feel free to include him at the Breakfast, Hunt, Feast, etc!

As for Egalmoth, I'd say no. We are still establishing Glorfindel and Ecthelion as Turgon's right-hand guys...and we want those two to be the standouts among the Lords of Gondolin.

As for Aredhel's guards - there's a reason CJRT didn't name them in the published Silmarillion. It seems a bit out of character for Glorfindel and Ecthelion to abandon their mission to protect the king's sister because of some giant spiders. Those guards come across as rather timid/incompetent, and it's difficult to reconcile those actions with those characters. So, when it comes time to discuss Aredhel's departure from Gondolin...we may decide to rework who we send along.
I think we could make the scene where they lose Aredhel work in a way that Egalmoth, Glorfindel, and Ecthelion do not look incompetent. I don't like the idea of replacing them with less important characters. Turgon wants to protect Aredhel and is concerned about those who leave Gondolin not keeping the secret of its location, so I think he would only send his most trusted lords with her.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Three lords of "his household", well what does household mean in thos case? I guess it means Turgon's own family and retainers and none of the other great houses...

But... i mean we COULD decide otherwise! He COULD assingn Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Egalmoth... three formidable lords and some of Gondolins greatest , if not THE greatest, warriors.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Three lords of "his household", well what does household mean in thos case? I guess it means Turgon's own family and retainers and none of the other great houses...

But... i mean we COULD decide otherwise! He COULD assingn Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Egalmoth... three formidable lords and some of Gondolins greatest , if not THE greatest, warriors.
Glorfindel would technically fall under that, since he’s Turgon’s kinsman (we still need to establish how he is related to Turgon). So even if we restrict Aredhel’s companions to kin, Glorfindel would be going regardless.
 
Last edited:

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Three lords of "his household", well what does household mean in thos case? I guess it means Turgon's own family and retainers and none of the other great houses...

But... i mean we COULD decide otherwise! He COULD assign Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Egalmoth... three formidable lords and some of Gondolins greatest , if not THE greatest, warriors.
Turgon does definitely go overboard with Aredhel, particularly since he defies her last request for Eol's life and has him executed. Most other sources state that it was Glorfindel, Ecthelion and Egalmoth who accompanied Aredhel, so he definitely put up the best bodyguards he could.

Am I wrong?
 
Last edited:

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I finally finished the scripts for this episode.

I went ahead and included Egalmoth in the guards that go with Turgon, but I can take him out if his being there is too much of a problem.

I tried the plotline of Thingol and Melian arguing and then Melian ensorcelling Thingol a couple different ways, but I found it hard to set up the climactic event in the one other scene of them together. Instead, I had Melian in the first scene discussing the limits of her foresight and reminding Thingol that other Ainur still care about the Elves of Middle-earth. In the other scene, she allows others to reveal things to Thingol that cause him to have a change of heart. I did keep the dark and scary forest element in the version of script where Angrod died in the Dagor Aglareb.
 

Attachments

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I titled this episode "Devices of the Heart," a reference to the warning that Ulmo will later give to Turgon, since both Turgon and Celeborn find themselves needing to trust their hearts. My best guess at a Sindarin translation is: "In Inc e-Gûr."

"Device" in this case does not mean a physical device, but a devising or idea. I went with the word inc, the plural form of which is in inc.

Gûr means "heart (inner mind)." With the genitival article en, I think it is a case of mixed mutation and would become e-gûr.

Sources:
https://www.elfdict.com/w/thought#
https://www.elfdict.com/w/heart
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_grammar.htm#article
http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/sindarin_phonetics.htm#mutation
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
What about "Nawath Gûren"?
Nawath would work. You're probably right that the collective plural would be more appropriate. However, I'm not sure about Gûren. I think that means "my heart," and I want to be clear that it's "the heart" in the abstract sense of potentially any and every individual heart. Maybe just Gûr without an article would convey that, indicating that it's not just one person's heart? If you think Gûren is best, though, I can definitely change it to that.
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yes there is a controversity if -en is an adjective ("of the tongue, related to the tongue") or a suffixed possessive ...
personally i tend to the former, i see little evidence for the latter in Sindarin, but i might be wrong.
 
Top