Script Discussion S04E13 Finale!

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Something we need for this episode is elvish wedding vows.
It's really important that this wedding (and all the other weddings in our show) not look/sound just like a wedding in any other movie set in a human culture. We can have flowers and rings, and familiar elements, but it shouldn't be so interchangeable as to completely pull someone out of the story.

So, for instance, I only want Galadriel to wear a white dress if she *always* wears white dresses on our show. If we've been costuming her in another color - she should wear that color. And I think we can skip the officiant, just having Galadriel and Celeborn marry one another without someone standing there as MC. And, naturally, the wedding vows have to sound like something other than "for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, til death do us part." There can't be a line about 'speak now or forever hold your peace' nor a line about 'what God has joined, let no man put asunder' or anything that screams wedding ceremony in the (English) Christian tradition. While still being...a wedding ceremony.

"Til death" is a human concept; the elvish equivalent is "til world's end" (tenn' Ambar-metta) Tolkien used that in several different Oaths (granted, mostly Numenorean, but also the Oath of Fëanor), so it would fit fine here. But what are they vowing to one another?

The Catholic understanding of marriage is that it is meant to be free, total, fruitful, and faithful. Arwen says she'll cleave to Aragorn; we can use that word for the faithful concept. I'm not sure how elves would express doing something without coercion. Perhaps something about it being declared publicly in sight of witnesses? We had discussed invoking the names of Tulkas and Nessa. For total, I feel like a duality is called for - body and soul, mind and heart, etc - some way of saying all of me for all of you. And would elves express a desire for children as part of their wedding ceremony? I would think that that would be part of the hope, but I'm not sure how they'd word it, or if that would be part of the 'blessing' the parents of the bride and groom would express - hope that they live a long life together, that they not be sundered by anything to come, that they have a family of their own, that their love for one another continue to grow, etc.

Any suggestions for language for elven wedding vows? Anyone have experience writing their own and care to lend a hand?
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I found this, might be worth a look.

 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Something we need for this episode is elvish wedding vows.
It's really important that this wedding (and all the other weddings in our show) not look/sound just like a wedding in any other movie set in a human culture. We can have flowers and rings, and familiar elements, but it shouldn't be so interchangeable as to completely pull someone out of the story.

So, for instance, I only want Galadriel to wear a white dress if she *always* wears white dresses on our show. If we've been costuming her in another color - she should wear that color. And I think we can skip the officiant, just having Galadriel and Celeborn marry one another without someone standing there as MC. And, naturally, the wedding vows have to sound like something other than "for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, til death do us part." There can't be a line about 'speak now or forever hold your peace' nor a line about 'what God has joined, let no man put asunder' or anything that screams wedding ceremony in the (English) Christian tradition. While still being...a wedding ceremony.

"Til death" is a human concept; the elvish equivalent is "til world's end" (tenn' Ambar-metta) Tolkien used that in several different Oaths (granted, mostly Numenorean, but also the Oath of Fëanor), so it would fit fine here. But what are they vowing to one another?

The Catholic understanding of marriage is that it is meant to be free, total, fruitful, and faithful. Arwen says she'll cleave to Aragorn; we can use that word for the faithful concept. I'm not sure how elves would express doing something without coercion. Perhaps something about it being declared publicly in sight of witnesses? We had discussed invoking the names of Tulkas and Nessa. For total, I feel like a duality is called for - body and soul, mind and heart, etc - some way of saying all of me for all of you. And would elves express a desire for children as part of their wedding ceremony? I would think that that would be part of the hope, but I'm not sure how they'd word it, or if that would be part of the 'blessing' the parents of the bride and groom would express - hope that they live a long life together, that they not be sundered by anything to come, that they have a family of their own, that their love for one another continue to grow, etc.

Any suggestions for language for elven wedding vows? Anyone have experience writing their own and care to lend a hand?
The vow about Cleaving to someone may not be necessary, since Elves typically do not engage in extra-marital sex (if at all). Marriages down the road like Beren and Luthien and Tuor and Idril may include something like this, however. Maybe a scene with Thingol and Turgon changing the vows to reflect this?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
I was thinking of including in the wedding vows some of the language from this poem Tolkien wrote to Edith:

Lo! Young we are and yet have stood
like planted hearts in the great Sun
of Love so long (as two fair trees
in woodland or in open dale
stand utterly entwined and breathe
the airs and suck the very light
together) that we have become
as one, deep rooted in the soil
of Life and tangled in the sweet growth.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I agree that faithfulness to one's marriage is assumed among elves, but that does not mean that you wouldn't mention it at the wedding as part of what you are pledging to do.

Monogamy may be more 'natural' to Elves than to Men, but they are still very much aware of what they are doing when they get married and make those promises!
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I agree that faithfulness to one's marriage is assumed among elves, but that does not mean that you wouldn't mention it at the wedding as part of what you are pledging to do.

Monogamy may be more 'natural' to Elves than to Men, but they are still very much aware of what they are doing when they get married and make those promises!
In that case I'm fine with a vow of faithfulness. It's just that the wording will be different.

On the other hand, who will stand in for the mother of the bride in Galadriel's case? Earwen is on the other side of the ocean, Edhellos is dead as a doornail (is there anything particularly dead about a doornail?), while Finrod and Aegnor are unmarried. Will it be Meril, as Galadriel's closest living female relative?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
In that case I'm fine with a vow of faithfulness. It's just that the wording will be different.

On the other hand, who will stand in for the mother of the bride in Galadriel's case? Earwen is on the other side of the ocean, Edhellos is dead as a doornail (is there anything particularly dead about a doornail?), while Finrod and Aegnor are unmarried. Will it be Meril, as Galadriel's closest living female relative?
We talked about this in the script discussion. Luthien will stand in for Galadriel's mother since she is Earwen's cousin.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
It's an interesting thought. The wedding ceremony for Elves is almost more the formalizing of an already accomplished deed, rather than initiating at the beginning.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
It's an interesting thought. The wedding ceremony for Elves is almost more the formalizing of an already accomplished deed, rather than initiating at the beginning.
From what I've been reading, the most important aspect of the marriage is the consummation. Only then are the (telepathic?) bonds between spouses formed. Will be interesting to see how this is applied to marriages like Beren and Luthien and Tuor and Idril down the line.
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Here is the script for Episode 13 (with Angrod alive). Whether or not I need to write another version will depend on how the session goes tonight.

Fingon's lieutenant, a female Elf who replaced Rhogrin and is killed by Glaurung, needs a name. So does the horse that used to belong to Rhogrin and Elrhun's new horse.

I split Thingol's arrival in Nargothrond and the wedding itself into two scenes and put the wedding after the execution of the plan to trap Glaurung.

I added Ents to the second peace montage in addition to Entwives and slightly changed the order of it.
 

Attachments

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Did we have a herald for him before this point?
It's a matter of terminology. In our discussion, we referred to this Elf as Fingon's lieutenant. She took over that position after Rhogrin was captured, and Rhogrin took over that position from her father after he died on the Helcaraxe. Elrhun is going to be the next lieutenant until Rhogrin gets back. I was just wondering if "lieutenant" and "herald" should be equivalent.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
It's a matter of terminology. In our discussion, we referred to this Elf as Fingon's lieutenant. She took over that position after Rhogrin was captured, and Rhogrin took over that position from her father after he died on the Helcaraxe. Elrhun is going to be the next lieutenant until Rhogrin gets back. I was just wondering if "lieutenant" and "herald" should be equivalent.
I think in the context of the setting, "herald" and "lieutenant" are said in the same breath since Elrond is herald to Gil-galad and must be high on the totem pole since he was entrusted with Gil-galad's Ring of Power.

On the other hand, Elrhun is killed here. Who should hold the position before Rhogrin returns? Should he even be the lieutenant anymore? When should he get back?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Elrhun isn't killed here. Fingon's yet-unnamed female lieutenant is killed by Glaurung, and Elrhun volunteers to be bait with Celegorm in the canyon and then is heroic in the battle. The next time we show Fingon's army, Elrhun will be the lieutenant/herald. He will give up that position when Rhogrin gets back.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Elrhun isn't killed here. Fingon's yet-unnamed female lieutenant is killed by Glaurung, and Elrhun volunteers to be bait with Celegorm in the canyon and then is heroic in the battle. The next time we show Fingon's army, Elrhun will be the lieutenant/herald. He will give up that position when Rhogrin gets back.
Ok, so Elrhun and the unnamed Lieutenant are different people.

So what's the rundown on Elrhun? Who is he, what does he do, and how long should he be around?
 

Rhiannon

Well-Known Member
Elrhun is the son of Annael. In the current version of Episode 9, Rhogrin helps Elrhun and Annael's wife, Linwen, escape from some giant cats, but Rhogrin and Annael are captured. Elrhun and his mother then go to live in Dor-lomin with Fingon, and Elrhun joins Fingon's army when he is old enough (he is there when Aredhel visits on her farewell tour). Elrhun is part of Fingon's force of mounted archers that faces Glaurung. The script team's plan is for him to be herald of Fingon until Rhogrin escapes and returns, at which point Elrhun will gladly give up his position to the Elf who saved his life. He will in some way be affected by Annael's treachery, whatever that turns out to be. We haven't discussed how long Elrhun will be around, but maybe he could be part of Fingon's guard that falls around him in the Nirnaeth since Rhogrin needs to escape to Gondolin.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Elrhun is the son of Annael. In the current version of Episode 9, Rhogrin helps Elrhun and Annael's wife, Linwen, escape from some giant cats, but Rhogrin and Annael are captured. Elrhun and his mother then go to live in Dor-lomin with Fingon, and Elrhun joins Fingon's army when he is old enough (he is there when Aredhel visits on her farewell tour). Elrhun is part of Fingon's force of mounted archers that faces Glaurung. The script team's plan is for him to be herald of Fingon until Rhogrin escapes and returns, at which point Elrhun will gladly give up his position to the Elf who saved his life. He will in some way be affected by Annael's treachery, whatever that turns out to be. We haven't discussed how long Elrhun will be around, but maybe he could be part of Fingon's guard that falls around him in the Nirnaeth since Rhogrin needs to escape to Gondolin.
Is he worth casting?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
No, we're not casting him in Season 4. If he winds up having a bigger role in the story later, we can decide to cast him.


I think it might be okay to use the term 'herald' here - this might be an opportunity to show that a herald could be male or female.

We were going to try to show that heralds were more typically healers not fighters, though. So, they're high-ranking in this society and play a pivotal role in the military, but...not exactly the kind of person you'd want at your back in a skirmish.

So, knowing that, would you prefer that this person be a lieutenant (ie, military rank for a skilled combatant) rather than a herald (support role that is high in the command structure, but not a skilled fighter)?
 
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