Script Discussion: S06E02

How dangerous is nan Dungortheb in daylight? If Beren is very desperate he could put everything on one map and bet he could cross it in the light hours, it is 40 miles... a tough ranger could think that way.

No daylight comes there I do understand?

Ered Gorgoroth, the Mountains of Terror, and none dared go thither, or
pass nigh them; there life and light were strangled,

There spiders of the fell race of Ungoliant abode, spinning their unseen webs in
which all living things were snared; and monsters wandered there that were born
in the long dark before the Sun
,
(...)

The place is covered in cobwebs which block the light out and the "unlight" of Ungoliant seems to linger there still.

And Beren does not follow the shortest line through - he first has to travel through the Ered Gorgoroth South-West making his passage through the mountains about trice as much as it has to be were he to go straight South. But then he would end up in Dor Dínen and not Neldoreth.
 
Last edited:
If he does not know the route itself how can he know that? Orcs can climb mountains too, they are born mountaineers after all. As an experienced orc-fighter Beren has to know that much.



? He is a native there. He has grown up with horror stories about the mountains. He knows his own land.



That explicitly stated there in the text. He was the only one to ever attempt such a feat.



The occupation has too little time to tighten to such a degree in the short amount of time. You have to remember that you have changed the story by removing several years from it so that Beren decides to leave just after having accomplished succesfully his revenge at the very other end of Dorthonion and having traveled back undisturbed to a location that was already known to the enemy without any trouble.



? If he has less than perfect awareness of the danger of the situation around him that makes him less prone to enter Ered Gorgoroth than more?



I've actually re-checked the Silmarillion. It does say little about his choice. Beren sees Doriath from afar while already in Ered Gorgoroth and decides to go there because he likes the look of the forest. It is not even clear he understands it is Doriath at this very moment - the description is a little vague - not necessarily restricted to his own perspective.

Here some citations (without page number, as from an online source)
https://archive.org/stream/TheSilmarillionIllustratedJ.R.R.TolkienTedNasmith/The Silmarillion (Illustrated) - J. R. R. Tolkien; Ted Nasmith;_djvu.txt :

About Ered Gorgoroth in the Silmarillion from stories predating Beren:

Soon afterwards Ungoliant fled from the north and came into the realm of King
Thingol, and a terror of darkness was about her; but by the power of Melian she
was stayed, and entered not into Neldoreth, but abode long time under the
shadow of the precipices in which Dorthonion fell southward. And they became
known as Ered Gorgoroth, the Mountains of Terror, and none dared go thither, or
pass nigh them; there life and light were strangled, and there all waters were

poisoned.
(...)
Between Mindeb and the upper waters of
Esgalduin lay the no-land of Nan Dungortheb; and that region was filled with
fear, for upon its one side the power of Melian fenced the north march of
Doriath, but upon the other side the sheer precipices of Ered Gorgoroth,
Mountains of Terror, fell down from high Dorthonion. Thither, as was earlier
told, Ungoliant had fled from the whips of the Balrogs, and there she dwelt a
while, filling the ravines with her deadly gloom, and there still, when she had
passed away, her foul offspring lurked and wove their evil nets; and the thin
waters that spilled from Ered Gorgoroth were defiled, and perilous to drink, for
the hearts of those that tasted them were filled with shadows of madness and
despair. All living things else shunned that land,
and the Noldor would pass
through Nan Dungortheb only at great need, by paths near to the borders of
Doriath and furthest from the haunted hills.



And here is the very passage about Beren deeds after finishing his revenge:

Thereafter for four years more Beren wandered still upon Dorthonion, a
solitary outlaw; but he became the friend of birds and beasts, and they aided him,
and did not betray him, and from that time forth he ate no flesh nor slew any
living thing that was not in the service of Morgoth. He did not fear death, but
only captivity, and being bold and desperate he escaped both death and bonds;
and the deeds of lonely daring that he achieved were noised abroad throughout
Beleriand
, and the tale of them came even into Doriath. At length Morgoth set a
price upon his head no less than the price upon the head of Fingon,
High King of
the Noldor; but the Orcs fled rather at the rumour of his approach than sought
him out. Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron;
and Sauron brought were-wolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he
had imprisoned in their bodies.


All that land was now become filled with evil, and all clean things were
departing from it
; and Beren was pressed so hard that at last he was forced to
flee from Dorthonion
. In time of winter and snow he forsook the land and grave
of his father, and climbing into the high regions of Gorgoroth, the Mountains of
Terror, he descried afar the land of Doriath. There it was put into his heart that he
would go down into the Hidden Kingdom
, where no mortal foot had yet trodden.

Terrible was his southward journey. Sheer were the precipices of Ered
Gorgoroth, and beneath their feet were shadows that were laid before the rising
of the Moon. Beyond lay the wilderness of Dungortheb, where the sorcery of
Sauron and the power of Melian came together, and horror and madness walked.
There spiders of the fell race of Ungoliant abode, spinning their unseen webs in
which all living things were snared; and monsters wandered there that were born
in the long dark before the Sun, hunting silently with many eyes. No food for
Elves or Men was there in that haunted land, but death only
. That journey is not
accounted least among the great deeds of Beren
, but he spoke of it to no one
after, lest the horror return into his mind; and none know how he found a way,
and so came by paths that no Man nor Elf else ever dared to tread to the borders
of Doriath. And he passed through the mazes that Melian wove about the
kingdom of Thingol, even as she had foretold; for a great doom lay upon him.

It is told in the Lay of Leithian that Beren came stumbling into Doriath grey
and bowed as with many years
of woe, so great had been the torment of the road.


[Citations' end.]

This is just an overview. This is not a story.
But even here it is said that he was driven out of Dorhonion by:
"an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron;
and Sauron brought were-wolves, fell beasts [...]
was pressed so hard that at last he was forced to
flee from Dorthonion
."


You have already changed what little of a story there is by:

-removing Beren's Beleriand-wide fame as an orc killer (I do admit to reset that change a little)
-removing Morgoth's price on Beren's head
-removing Sauron personally chasing after him with an army of werewolves and monsters
-removing the four years of encroaching corruption that made all clean things leave Dorthonion
-making Beren decide to leave straight after his revenge and on his own accord by making a rational decission

This story has already been changed beyond recognition to have completly different dynamic.

Please do make it coherent, because at the moment it simply is not. - If you have changed it this far so that actually little is left of the original then please do change it farther - enough so that it does make sense again.

P.S.
Beren is a warrior who knows his land, not a foreigner who does not know what he is doing. He knows what Ered Gorgoroth is. He has grown up right next to it.

Going there was "not accounted least among the great deeds of Beren" - it was a deed of a hero, he knew what he was up to when he entered there. But what has brought him thus far? In this version of the story there is simply yet no reason for it.

So some valid reason needs to be created.

And the time to set it up is EP2.

;)

"Make the story make sense again!"
I thought Sauron doesn't personally chase after Beren, he doesn't seem to recognize him when the companions' disguises are removed after Finrod loses the song battle.
 
I thought Sauron doesn't personally chase after Beren, he doesn't seem to recognize him when the companions' disguises are removed after Finrod loses the song battle.

Not in our story, here he does not.

But in the original texts Sauron does chase after Beren just to ignore him when he captures him later. Same with Morgoth - who places a price on Beren's head but disregards Beren when he comes to him. But this is how Tolkien wrote it.
 
Not in our story, here he does not.

But in the original texts Sauron does chase after Beren just to ignore him when he captures him later. Same with Morgoth - who places a price on Beren's head but disregards Beren when he comes to him. But this is how Tolkien wrote it.
The text says that Sauron sent an army (including werewolves to chase Beren, it says nothing about him personally chasing him. Likewise, Morgoth never sets eyes on Beren until he comes to Angband (he's Orcus on his Throne).
 
So... here's the deal: I have not perceived any argument convincing enough that Beren's mission in E02 *must* be to the Pass of Anach. The arguments made for that thus far rely heavily on hyperbole and subjectivity. The story is certainly neither unrecognizable nor incoherent to my perception. Beren's knowledge of the areas outside of Ladros does not have to be that complete. The occupation can be severe enough to warrant choosing not to pass through it.

Beren travelling to the Pass is an option, but one of several. It will be considered tomorrow night, amongst the other options equally workable if not more so.
 
What is if he is wounded and possibly delirious? He could be on the run, being chased and get into the valley of spiderwebs and dark idols by mistake because his mind is clouded... in theory he should die there but that is not how fate works in tolkien's world... Illuvatar still has plans for him and so he somehow gets out alive, somehow is able to cross meians girlde and is found by Luthien...
 
So... here's the deal: I have not perceived any argument convincing enough that Beren's mission in E02 *must* be to the Pass of Anach.

You wouldn't - in my entries at least - as I have never claimed it. All I said was he must be made aware the Pass is being hold against him. He does not need to go there himself, he just has to get to know that orcs do hold the Pass, both for him and later for Finrod and Daeron.

After all his family/mother are still down this very Pass - in Brethil. So it would be his most natural route to take and why he does not requires an explanation. Or does he hate his mother for some reason and wants to avoid her for the rest of his life?

But even if it were to be so - which I do not hold - still mere courtesy places a duty on him to inform the women that they have been widowed and the children that they have been orphaned - if this were at all feasible to accomplish. So still Pass of Anach would be his first choice as a way out of Dorthonion - if there were any change of getting to and through it.

The arguments made for that thus far rely heavily on hyperbole and subjectivity.

If you consider the desciptions from the Silmarillion both about the dangers of Ered Gorgorth/Nan Dungortheb and about the heroism of Beren and the importance Morgoth/Sauron seem to place on him in the Silmarillion fragment that I've cited - then yes. But then you do have to propose a de-hyperbolised but still coherent narrative yourself.

The story is certainly neither unrecognizable nor incoherent to my perception. Beren's knowledge of the areas outside of Ladros does not have to be that complete. The occupation can be severe enough to warrant choosing not to pass through it.

Where was this occupstion then a moment ago when Beren traveled to Rivil's Well and back again without any trouble and dares to return to his father's grave - a place he knows the enemy knows already too? And his orientation is well enough to manage this journey on his own even if it is completely outside of Ladros proper. And after leaving Doriath he finds Finrod in Nargothrond without any problems either - so his geography seems fine - thank you very much for you concern on his behalf. ;)

Beren travelling to the Pass is an option, but one of several. It will be considered tomorrow night, amongst the other options equally workable if not more so.

Whatever works, just set the circumstances so that Beren choice in EP 3 is understandable.

What started to worry me after looking at the maps more closely is the proximity of the Pass of Aglon to Beren's starting point at his band's grave site at Tarn Aeluin - if the Pass of Aglon has been already retaken in EP 1 by Maedhros and Maedhros has already reestablished contact with Bëor's people in Dorthonion, then this would be a natural destination for Beren due to its sheer proximity.

He knows those elves to be his allies - why does he go to Doriath which is:
1. far farther away
2. known as unwelcoming to humans?

Does not seem as a rational decission for me either on his part.

Haerangil 's suggestion of making Beren delirious seems more and more necessary to explain it.

Even the no man's land of Dor Dínen seems a more profitable destination - as far we know there are neither spiders no monster there - it is just unsettled.

What is if he is wounded and possibly delirious? He could be on the run, being chased and get into the valley of spiderwebs and dark idols by mistake because his mind is clouded... in theory he should die there but that is not how fate works in tolkien's world... Illuvatar still has plans for him and so he somehow gets out alive, somehow is able to cross meians girlde and is found by Luthien...

If that choice is not rational than it works. The two questions then are how would Beren then be able to make it through if impaired from the very start of his journey and how we differentiate that "irrational" choice from the preceeding rational one to leave Dorthonion itself - which The Tolkien Profesor stated to want to be a free and conscious decission on Beren's part.

The text says that Sauron sent an army (including werewolves to chase Beren, it says nothing about him personally chasing him. Likewise, Morgoth never sets eyes on Beren until he comes to Angband (he's Orcus on his Throne).

? I have already given the citation above:

At length Morgoth set a
price upon his head no less than the price upon the head of Fingon, High King of
the Noldor; but the Orcs fled rather at the rumour of his approach than sought
him out. Therefore an army was sent against him under the command of Sauron;
and Sauron brought were-wolves, fell beasts inhabited by dreadful spirits that he
had imprisoned in their bodies.


"Sauron brought" - not "Sauron sent".

If Sauron brought the army and the army was sent under his command then I do understand him to be there?

And Morgoth's disregard for someone whose head he had set a price on as high as he set on the Noldo High King himself in the original text is a little strange. Imho Morgoth would not disregard Fingon for sure this way were Fingon to come before him.
But our story does not have this last problem as Morgoth is less involved here.
 
Last edited:
What about the pass, on the contrary, being too open? From hiking in the alps, i know that if you're traveling over a broad pass, you are very, very visible, for a long time. Those broad passes are very popular and well trodden because they are easy to do, but you just need one little cabin up on the mountain flank surveying it where you can shoot ppl down from or get reinforcements, there need not be 10'000 orcs just idly hanging around the pass. There need to be a couple who can light a signal fire & shoot a bow. These passes were in the alps often subject to tolls, had a lot of infrastructure for accomodating travelers/defending territory along them. And then there are the "smuggler passes", that are much less traveled because the terrain is less open and flat, which also makes them difficult to survey. To me it makes total sense why Beren would just use the second one out of principle, he doesn't to me need to do the calculation if he can fight his way through the pass or not. It's been the tactic of Barahirs band all along, stay hidden and strike from hiding, retreat again.
 
What about the pass, on the contrary, being too open? From hiking in the alps, i know that if you're traveling over a broad pass, you are very, very visible, for a long time. Those broad passes are very popular and well trodden because they are easy to do, but you just need one little cabin up on the mountain flank surveying it where you can shoot ppl down from or get reinforcements, there need not be 10'000 orcs just idly hanging around the pass. There need to be a couple who can light a signal fire & shoot a bow. These passes were in the alps often subject to tolls, had a lot of infrastructure for accomodating travelers/defending territory along them. And then there are the "smuggler passes", that are much less traveled because the terrain is less open and flat, which also makes them difficult to survey. To me it makes total sense why Beren would just use the second one out of principle, he doesn't to me need to do the calculation if he can fight his way through the pass or not. It's been the tactic of Barahirs band all along, stay hidden and strike from hiding, retreat again.

There is no second one - or do you mean the Pass of Aglon?

But that one goes between the Ered Gorgorth and the hills of Himring. To reach it he would have to pass through the South-Eastern edge of the Ered Gorgorth if starting from Tarn Aeluin - the part of Ered Gorgorth that is relatively far away from Nan Dungortheb (and as so maybe a little safer) - while this would make sense geopolitically but would never bring anywhere into Doriath and especially not into Neldoreth.
I agree he might start his road intending to go there and then change his mind while in Ered Gorgoroth already when seeing the forest of Doriath from afar "calling out to him" - but that would be a very significant change of plans - a far longer and far more dangerous road with an uncertain goal - if survivable at all.

Anlon.png
 
Well, by second one, i just mean passing the mountains otherwise. Every little inbetween two peaks where you can hike through to the other side is technically a pass, they just mostly aren't named passes, because they're not commonly used enough. So a smuggler's pass is basically just crawling up the mountains and down the other side again.
 
Well, by second one, i just mean passing the mountains otherwise. Every little inbetween two peaks where you can hike through to the other side is technically a pass, they just mostly aren't named passes, because they're not commonly used enough. So a smuggler's pass is basically just crawling up the mountains and down the other side again.

There are no passes there - that is stated in the text, the Highland of Dorthonion just breaks of down there suddenly in sheer cliffs and precipices which form the Ered Gorgoroth - there some peaks where the chain of Ered Gorgorth turns North in the East of Dothonion, but in the South the Highland just suddenly falls down into Nan Dungortheb and the cliffs are the mountains.

I've proposed somewhere above Beren's family having a secret passage there for emergencies as a solution - but that would be change to the given text. But such a passage would not lead into Nan Dungortheb directly but into Dor Dínen - for obvious reasons.

But such a passage would also have to be mentioned in EP 2 if it is to be used in EP 3.
 
Last edited:
That is not how mountain passes work. Technically you would only need to be a good mountaineer and will find a way...
Practically that may end deadly, but herders and smugglers know these ways, depending on seasons and weather of course, they might be dangerous though.
 
Last edited:
That is not how mountain passes work. Technically you would only need to be a good mountaineer and will find a way...
Practically that may end deadly, but herders and smugglers know these ways, depending onnseasons and wethaer of course, they might be dangerous though.

Winter. ;-) Sheer cliffs down. Probably covered like this all the way down through:


You would need a secret passage in a crevice to small for spiders to enter with some steps hewn into the rock here and there imho. But it should lead somewhere sensible to.
 
That is not how mountain passes work. Technically you would only need to be a good mountaineer and will find a way...
Practically that may end deadly, but herders and smugglers know these ways, depending onnseasons and wethaer of course, they might be dangerous though.
Speaking of which, what season is it?
 
Speaking of which, what season is it?

Originally Beren starts out in winter time and MithLuin said this would be kept. But Beren sees Luthien in summer in Doriath when hemlock is high in bloom (July and August according to the internet) - as such autumn and another winter pass when he sees her from afar only before he catches her in next spring. So if we make him leave late winter/early spring then he has the whole of spring and early summer to wander through - that makes about 4-6 months for the journey itself (and feeding and clothing himself somehow)?

(Also imho Doriath seen from afar from a mountain peak would be more appealing in spring or summer than in a yet leafless winter - but that just me.)

The good thing about winter is that Beren can melt snow to get clean water in areas where there is none. The rest of it is one big logistic problem.
 
Last edited:
What a good eye for detail! While of course Doriath itself still could have unnatural seasons...

I still have to add, we're not dealing with extreme distances, Ered Gorgoroth and Dungortheb to Girdle of Melian is 50 miles or less...
If i get Karen wynn-Fonstadts estimations right she thought the Ered Gorgoroth would be two-thousanders, about 1500-1700 miles above sealevel or up to 1300-1500 meters above lower Beleriand, from peaks.

Beren possibly from the highlands COULD see as far as 70 miles or more so he COULD really see the Forests of Doriath from afar. Interestingly she also stated that his flight from Dorthonion happened in Winter...
 
Also means Beren would be aware he technically could make it in 2-3 tough days!
He also could hope if he found the Esgalduin and Region sources his way would be a bit more safe.
 
Also means Beren would be aware he technically could make it in 2-3 tough days!

Without the fighting spiders and monster part you mean? - Yeah - such a time-consuming passtime to have.

I do not remember how long Beren has been already in Doriath before seeing Luthiem for the first time - that time (without showing all of it, just adjusting the seasons - of course) might be used to adjust the timeframe if needed.

Still one issue remains - does he steal evlish clothes from some random washing lines somewhere or does he run around without?

Another one - I've mentioned it above but do not want it to be forgotten - has he Beren Shelob? - We know from TLOTR she lives yet at Nan Dongortheb at that very time. Propably just Huan-sized at the moment.
 
Last edited:
Depends on how many miles we think he could do, without fighting orcs or spiders a tough hiker can do up to 25-35 miles a day, other far less fit people might only do 9, might equal fighting spiders and beasts for a tougher person.

I think in the books he was only dressed in his wild hair and animal skins if i remember correctly... he certainly smells, is unshaved and does not look very appealing or trustworthy to a civilized person.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top