Script Discussion S06E03

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Revenge vs spiders huh?

Technically...
The Beren kills Gorgol thing is really just a short scene... it is a nice ending for his time being lone ranger in Dorthonion and if he maybe got wounded by some poison arrow we can use that as an excuse for him stumbling deliriously into spiderland.

But spiderland? What ever happens there? Is there much to tell after all? So far i do not see any story that coul not be skipped directly into him stumbling i to doriath...
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
Technically...
The Beren kills Gorgol thing is really just a short scene... it is a nice ending for his time being line ranger in Dorthonion...
Also my opinion.

But spiderland? What ever happens there? Is there much to tell after all? So far i do not see any story that coul not be skipped directly into him stumbling i to doriath...
So you would like only a nice short intense combat montage and on we go?
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I’d say a travel montage, on shot of which is him fighting a giant spider. And just get to story
I'm not sure I follow. Are not the motivations for the psychological and physiological trauma that have Beren beauty able to walk by the time he arrives in Doriath a part of the story? It might not be a part of the story in which you're particularly interested, but it is certainly part of the story.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I'm not sure I follow. Are not the motivations for the psychological and physiological trauma that have Beren beauty able to walk by the time he arrives in Doriath a part of the story? It might not be a part of the story in which you're particularly interested, but it is certainly part of the story.
Its show don’t tell though right. We see the trauma of losing people. We see him travelling. You can show it all in a montage. Or a sequence of events. Conservative is key. His journey is obviously vital. But scenes of him killing spiders or being alone, as cool as they are, are real estate we can’t afford when the same story can be told in a number of frames
 

Odola

Well-Known Member
I'm not sure I follow. Are not the motivations for the psychological and physiological trauma that have Beren beauty able to walk by the time he arrives in Doriath a part of the story? It might not be a part of the story in which you're particularly interested, but it is certainly part of the story.

The problem is also logistic and logic. How can a person stay alive for at least a month or more while traveling in an area where there is absolutely no drinkable water nor any food nor shelter for sleep - and neither night nor day. A week maybe with some water stored, 60 or more days? Unbelievable, The more we show of it, the more obvious it becomes.
 
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Icon5235

New Member
Its show don’t tell though right. We see the trauma of losing people. We see him travelling. You can show it all in a montage. Or a sequence of events. Conservative is key. His journey is obviously vital. But scenes of him killing spiders or being alone, as cool as they are, are real estate we can’t afford when the same story can be told in a number of frames
I think what we show depends on what story we're trying to tell, and what Beren is feeling. We're not simply presenting events for no reason. The events that we present need to illustrate the story we're trying to tell. They need to communicate the emotions that Beren is experiencing. If we have Beren fighting a bunch of spiders just because we know there are spiders there and he needs to travel through that area, then absolutely all we need is just a combat montage and then let's get on with it.
But, IMO this space of time is an amazing opportunity for us to drive home the trauma that Beren is experiencing, and the fact that, at this point, he has nothing to live for. This sequence is a tool to show through his actions and behavior exactly what Luthien saved him from, and how powerful that is.
"Spiderland" is our emotional investment into that payoff.
On the other hand, I am a recovering Emo sooo lol
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
I think this is the problem we keep coming back to is that the planning starts with events first not story arcs. I’m gonna check out of this one I think. I just find the podcast and the planning too jarring a process to know where to contribute personally. Sorry folks. I think for this project, casting and design is something I can really get behind
 

Kathrin

Well-Known Member
Another thing to consider is whether or not we need to revisit Nargothrond in this episode. We will NOT be seeing Nargothrond in Episode 4, and then will return there in Episode 5 when Beren asks Finrod for aid with his Quest. So, is everything set and in place for that story, or do we need to see some tension or political machinations from the Fëanoreans or...?
Oh, I had a thought about this at work today. In the Silm there is this line about Finrod sharing his doom with Galadriel (when Beren comes to Nargothrond: "and he (finrod) knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before he had foretold to Galadriel") I don't think we have done this yet? If I am not forgetting things. I think it might be a very good episode to do it. Due to our timeline compression it won't be "long ago" anyway, but it will be early enough so it isn't just right before beren walks in. (*sad trombone sound, finrod looks to camera "i'm doomed")
But yeah, either he can open up to Galadriel now, or he already did, but it comes up between them again. I can imagine a scene where maybe he is on some errand outside Nargothrond, let's say for instance, the northern watchtower of, say Edrahil, or sth. He could also be showing around the Feanorians/receiving them there or sth, so we could have both.
Afterwards I could imagine a scene where Finrod stays in the watchtower, or climbs a hill in the evening and watches out over the woods, and we could have a quiet little Osanwë scene (we havent used osanwe a lot so far, but i think two close siblings with a lot to communicate but who are far away, and Galadriel being a known Osanwe-user are kinda a good place for it) Also it would be a very easy scene to dramatically transfer out of, imagine Galadriel and Finrod looking towards each other but also to the north to Morgoths clouds, and maybe there is a storm brewing, lightning, and then you can cut to stormy Dorthonion..
And everyone thinks its just a nice flashy environmental scene transition, but it also hides the thematic link a little, (Finrod's doom, cut to Beren) even though ppl who know the story will ofc know what we're doing.

Anyway. Yeah, if we still need sth for that scene xD
 

Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
I think this is the problem we keep coming back to is that the planning starts with events first not story arcs. I’m gonna check out of this one I think. I just find the podcast and the planning too jarring a process to know where to contribute personally. Sorry folks. I think for this project, casting and design is something I can really get behind
Tolkien's writing definitely lends itself to story arcs set around the action making up the story. In trying to keep to the story as told, the adaptation challenge is to investigate the motivations of the characters in their actions as they already exist rather than work out a character we want to write first.

If adaptation of plot-driven stories isn't your bag, I get it.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Oh, I had a thought about this at work today. In the Silm there is this line about Finrod sharing his doom with Galadriel (when Beren comes to Nargothrond: "and he (finrod) knew that the oath he had sworn was come upon him for his death, as long before he had foretold to Galadriel") I don't think we have done this yet? If I am not forgetting things. I think it might be a very good episode to do it. Due to our timeline compression it won't be "long ago" anyway, but it will be early enough so it isn't just right before beren walks in. (*sad trombone sound, finrod looks to camera "i'm doomed")
But yeah, either he can open up to Galadriel now, or he already did, but it comes up between them again. I can imagine a scene where maybe he is on some errand outside Nargothrond, let's say for instance, the northern watchtower of, say Edrahil, or sth. He could also be showing around the Feanorians/receiving them there or sth, so we could have both.
Afterwards I could imagine a scene where Finrod stays in the watchtower, or climbs a hill in the evening and watches out over the woods, and we could have a quiet little Osanwë scene (we havent used osanwe a lot so far, but i think two close siblings with a lot to communicate but who are far away, and Galadriel being a known Osanwe-user are kinda a good place for it) Also it would be a very easy scene to dramatically transfer out of, imagine Galadriel and Finrod looking towards each other but also to the north to Morgoths clouds, and maybe there is a storm brewing, lightning, and then you can cut to stormy Dorthonion..
And everyone thinks its just a nice flashy environmental scene transition, but it also hides the thematic link a little, (Finrod's doom, cut to Beren) even though ppl who know the story will ofc know what we're doing.

Anyway. Yeah, if we still need sth for that scene xD
Galadriel and Finrod had the conversation about his premonition in Season 4. The context was her engagement and marriage to Celeborn, and we needed him to make that statement after he built Nargothrond but before he swore his oath to Barahir at the end of season 5. His line about 'an oath I too shall swear ...'
 

Haerangil

Well-Known Member
The problem is also logistic and logic. How can a person stay alive for at least a month or more while traveling in an area where there is absolutely no drinkable water nor any food nor shelter for sleep - and neither night nor day. A week maybe with some water stored, 60 or more days? Unbelievable, The more we show of it, the more obvious it becomes.
And why does he? In theory he should be able to get it done in days, i already pointed out that he actually does take months,though we do not know where exactly his odyssey led him, presumably he was NOT only in dungortheb or not all of the time? Was he caught in some sort of illusionary hell... finding out of dungortheb, finding food, surviving, but then getting drawn back inside into the darkness, poison and cold? For MONTHS? A never ending nightmare? That would be horrible! But the more i think about it... such sort of living hell on (middle-) earth does seem the most likely scenario... the adventures he never wanted to speak about, no wonder he didn't! I used to have those dreams where i woke up only to realize i was still asleep and it happened seemingly continuing endlessly with no feeling for time at all... when i finally woke up i was in cold sweat and not sure if i was not really dead or maybe still asleep and caught forever in some limbo.

If Beren experienced that... maybe combined with episodes of hunger, poisoning from arrows or spiders...
No wonder he seemed like a man aged way before his time! No way he was mentally not quite insane...

*shudder*

But how do you tell such a surreal horrorvision on screen?

Do you know any good time-loop horror movies? Or good scenes on war-trauma, like vietnam-jungle survivors or similar?
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
?

Do you know any good time-loop horror movies? Or good scenes on war-trauma, like vietnam-jungle survivors or similar?
That's kind of my point too. I am neither a horror movie fan nor do I even "get them". Still I do see the potential here. Would be a pity to waste it but still it is a foreign genre to me. The dream world you have described above seems, beyond mere spider and monster fighting, exactly what is happening here. But this is a "foreign world" to me and my imagination is at its limits here. That's why I am asking all the questions. Still first - "do we have time for this and what should it do for the story?".
 

Kathrin

Well-Known Member
Galadriel and Finrod had the conversation about his premonition in Season 4. The context was her engagement and marriage to Celeborn, and we needed him to make that statement after he built Nargothrond but before he swore his oath to Barahir at the end of season 5. His line about 'an oath I too shall swear ...'
ahh i see we that was where that went. I wasn't sure anymore about earlier, just that we hadn't mentioned it in S5. But we might bring it up again, if we need some more Finrod content early this season, even to have a sort of good-bye of finrod and galadriel, (at least retrospectively it will be one). The same scene or a closely following one could fit some set up for Nargothrond politics (Finrod, lieutenants, the geopolitical situation of the city can come up) and the arrival of C&C.
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
That's kind of my point too. I am neither a horror movie fan nor do I even "get them". Still I do see the potential here. Would be a pity to waste it but still it is a foreign genre to me. The dream world you have described above seems, beyond mere spider and monster fighting, exactly what is happening here. But this is a "foreign world" to me and my imagination is at its limits here. That's why I am asking all the questions. Still first - "do we have time for this and what should it do for the story?".
I mean, if you want horror input at any point THAT is totally my bag
 

Kathrin

Well-Known Member
I remember once i listened to the audiobook of steven king's the girl who loved tom gordon (tldr, spoilers: girl gets lost in the woods with only walkman with her favorite foot ball player's recordings on it, she gets lost and the woods start getting eerie and then quickly turn against her, rot and death is very viscerally described, but unsettlingly its at first only like, decay of plants and small animals, and only at the very end it escalates to bigger animals dying, getting eaten by insects, then the insects turning against her, the swamp and plants getting quickly much more difficult to pass, the insects suddenly turning against her and starting to devour her, and then on the very final bit, a weird forest spirit appears and hunts her... anyway, slow burn forest horror, very good.)

i think it should very much be an evil subversion of the like, knight going into faerie (see the dwarves mirkwood passage in the hobbit, or every knight's tale), but it should then quickly turn to the very, very rotten. (btw have we decided if/when ungoliant has devoured herself already?) i could also imagine sth like ungoliant less just devouring herself in one, like, chomp, and more of a disentagration into the whole of nan dungortheb. So she is still lingering in the fabric of the valley, but she has lost control over her one big spider-like form. (I know this is all background stuff, nothing of this would be said or directly shown, just a little background flavour xD
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Now what if...

There is a particularly evil spider, a half-demon, who is also a sorcerer...
It is not shelob, but she is very intelligent and very evil and she likes to play with her food...

This one big spiderqueen -i call her "lhingril"- has a particular knack for holding her prey like puppets, toying withnthem like with mice on a string or living marionettes.

This spider, Lhingril, is the one who catches Beren, she ensorceres him, on and off lets him go, but her mindtrapspell always brings him back, and she does actually feed on him...

That torture goes on for months

Yet someday beren is able to kill his torturer and actually breaks free... it is then he stumbles into Doriath...

Possible plot? A bit lovecraftian maybe...
 

Kathrin

Well-Known Member
I wonder if we need an actual end-boss spider.. lots of smaller ones, sure, but i think the horror being in large part environmental might be very effective too. Also in lovecraft i think the horror often lingers beyond a surface for the majority of the time and then maybe surfaces for a quick shock, at which point everyone either runs or dies. But i think lovecraft we can def. use in nan dungortheb xD
 

Rob Harding

Active Member
So for me, the horror I like and write, the horror has to come from a real place.

I like to write horror relating to the things that scare me. So it's often tied to parenthood and fears for kids (as a Dad).

You can have awesome monsters but you have to have a real hook to make that horror hurt deeply (in this kind of psychological horror anyway - we aren't going for slasher here, it sounds like).

So for Beren, the idea of coming back time and again to a trauma is profound. It also means he has some REAL work to do. The fact Luthien has healing qualities really matters now. In the long run, not just a short term. This becomes a part of who Beren is.

So if the spider-beast uses venom to keep him fresh and alive but compliant, keeping him trapped in a recycling nightmare of horror...well, what if that's also the thing that gives him strength to break out. Not real strength, but a desire to outrun his past.

He keeps seeing his father die then waking up every time he's fed on. Only to have it replayed (in quicker succession each time). He eventually fights, not because he's got stronger but because he is so overcome by fear he needs to break from it.

It leaves us with a character who is still trying to outrun his past. But first he needs to live through it in a healing way to become better. That gives us a character status quo from the outset. He needs to stop running. He needs to find who he is now, not just as a victim. He needs Luthien to heal.

And he in turn shows her what the effects of the world are like.

Or even, you could have this as a sequence of him walking through a landscape with multiple spiders doing this too him as he passes if you don't want a single boss spider.
 
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Odola

Well-Known Member
I mean, if you want horror input at any point THAT is totally my bag
Oh, great! Then do it, I think 10 min of pure horror would be good at that point? Even if only as a foil to Doriath? And to show that Ungoliant and her legacy is on another level of evil altogether even if compared to Morgoth himself?

So for me, the horror I like and write, the horror has to come from a real place.

I like to write horror relating to the things that scare me. So it's often tied to parenthood and fears for kids (as a Dad).

You can have awesome monsters but you have to have a real hook to make that horror hurt deeply (in this kind of psychological horror anyway - we aren't going for slasher here, it sounds like).

So for Beren, the idea of coming back time and again to a trauma is profound. It also means he has some REAL work to do. The fact Luthien has healing qualities really matters now. In the long run, not just a short term. This becomes a part of who Beren is.

So if the spider-beast uses venom to keep him fresh and alive but compliant, keeping him trapped in a recycling nightmare of horror...well, what if that's also the thing that gives him strength to break out. Not real strength, but a desire to outrun his past.

He keeps seeing his father die then waking up every time he's fed on. Only to have it replayed (in quicker succession each time). He eventually fights, not because he's got stronger but because he is so overcome by fear he needs to break from it.

It leaves us with a character who is still trying to outrun his past. But first he needs to live through it in a healing way to become better. That gives us a character status quo from the outset. He needs to stop running. He needs to find who he is now, not just as a victim. He needs Luthien to heal.

And he in turn shows her what the effects of the world are like.

Or even, you could have this as a sequence of him walking through a landscape with multiple spiders doing this too him as he passes if you don't want a single boss spider.
Sounds like a stating point to me. Add in some Dagor Bragollach flashbacks and a short lighter intelude with not yet fully grown Shelob which both survive and it should be all fine for me. And about monsters - those are not limited to spiders. Others from "before the Sun" - ancient primordial one - stuff of nighmares - are there available too.

Edit: We could have Beren trapped by an experienced old spider at the end of his endevours who "plays with her pray" before eating him and lets him trapped, wrapped up and delirious for days and Shelob trying to steal him for herself actually manages to get him free and then flies herself to Dorthonion, later to meet Sauron there. This way we would play on Tolkien's motto of evil undermining itself in the end.
 
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