Script Discussion S06E13

Just for future reference, the 1964 note Concerning... 'The Hoard' has this to say on Beren vs the Dwarves:

Fugitives from Doriath brought news to Beren in Ossiriand, especially of the rape of the Silmaril. He gathered a force and waylaid the Dwarves on their return march, at a ford across one of the “Seven Rivers of Ossir”. Then the Dwarves were routed. The gold and silver was cast into the river, which hereafter bore a new name, signifying ‘Golden-bed’. But Beren rescued the Necklace and the Silmaril. Lúthien wore it, until ere long she and Beren passed away and were heard of no more in Middle-earth.

The "Necklace and the Silmaril" here are not separate, of course. This is following on from the version of the ruin of Doriath, and as far as I know this seems to be Tolkien's latest view, since The Wanderings of Húrin material is dated by Christopher to the late 1950s (it's written on paper dated to 1954/57).
 
O.k. but why then does this reservation not extend to Luthien's only son? Such blood debts are usually inheritable.

Or do the Feanorian's have a blood feud with Beren which cancels it and they do not go after Beren only because he has died already? It seems not convincing to me why such a reservation would be specifically bound to Luthien only. Especially as they had no inhibition to go after her before and even to shoot at her. Has Celegorm made Caranthir swear not to go after Luthien as long she is alive, or something? The dynamic is not clear to me.



Melian bringing the Silmaril resolves another issue - the Silmaril is Thingol's and Thingol's official heir is Dior, not his mother. So it should go to Dior straight away. But Melian as Thingol's widow has the right to distribute his things among his descendants. So if she herself hands the Silmaril to her daughter this should be fine, then. Luthien keeps it for only fo a few months then before her 2nd death both in 503.

On the other side, how does Melian not know she is basically killing her daughter by handing the jewel to her? It is reducing Luthien's lifespans so that she dies in the very same year. And that she also dooms Dior, his wife and his sons and his kingdom to destruction only 3 years from now in 506. How could a Maia like Melian not see that coming?
But even Beren who has been to Valinor and should have some grasp how the world works now as a resurrected person - how comes he does not simple throw the thing into the river after the dragon gold but brings it back to kill his wife - and by extention himself, and then bring destruction upon his nearest kin - son, daughter-in-law and grandsons? The thing just basically killed Thingol - one of greatest elven kings ever - Beren should know better than to bring that thing home.

Or does Beren "fall in love" with the Silmaril that he sees it cleaned up in Thingol possession just after Beren's return from Valinor? This would be the only moment for Beren to do so, as later he is confined to Tol Galen. Then it would make sense that he goes after it after hearing of Thingol's death and that the dwarves now have it. Would turn whole story a little sinister.
Why would Celegorm make Caranthir swear not to go after Lúthien? He'd be the one who'd be raring most to get revenge on the couple as shown since the Second Kinslaying is his idea.
 
Why would Celegorm make Caranthir swear not to go after Lúthien? He'd be the one who'd be raring most to get revenge on the couple as shown since the Second Kinslaying is his idea.

Beren is mortal. He is history in 50-60 years anyway. Then Luthien is a proper widow and "on the market" again, as humans leave Arda parmanently. Would anybody have informed Caranthir about Luthien being mortal now after her return? Not likely. Second Kinslaying is after Luthien is dead for the 2nd time. Now Celegorm can be as much livid as he wants, there is nothing to lose for him anymore. If she were to be reembodied, then she would have to stay in Valinor, and he cannot return there.
 
Beren is mortal. He is history in 50-60 years anyway. Then Luthien is a proper widow and "on the market" again, as humans leave Arda parmanently. Would anybody have informed Caranthir about Luthien being mortal now after her return? Not likely. Second Kinslaying is after Luthien is dead for the 2nd time. Now Celegorm can be as much livid as he wants, there is nothing to lose for him anymore. If she were to be reembodied, then she would have to stay in Valinor, and he cannot return there.
Why would Caranthir care? He doesn't have interest in Lúthien, romantic or otherwise.
 
They are all oath-bound to care about anyone who holds a silmaril...but the oath allows 'biding your time.'
 
My input for this final episode is of course musical. There is another element present in Luthien’s song before Mandos. She will in effect be singing the 3rd theme from the Ainulindale which includes the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men. This will be the first time in the whole show that the 3rd theme will be heard since S1E1. Now this is a big deal for Mandos. One of the Children of Iluvatar rocks up to his halls singing this, when no one outside of the Valar and Maiar have ever heard this. It is outside of Mandos’ pay grade. There was talk in the session discussion with Corey about the decision being sent up the line from Mandos to Manwe, I don’t recall if they suggested it go any higher. It is not just a case of Mandos being moved to pity. I am sure that he has heard many pleas from the dead prior to this scene and, you know, rules are rules. He has to be genuinely surprised. Another possible element may be that Vaire has already predicted this in one of her tapestries. There are many elements that will factor into the final decision that is made to offer Beren and Luthien a new chance of life. My main request is that the musical element be present in the script.
 
Here is the outline for the episode!

 
My input for this final episode is of course musical. There is another element present in Luthien’s song before Mandos. She will in effect be singing the 3rd theme from the Ainulindale which includes the sorrow of the Eldar and the grief of Men. This will be the first time in the whole show that the 3rd theme will be heard since S1E1. Now this is a big deal for Mandos. One of the Children of Iluvatar rocks up to his halls singing this, when no one outside of the Valar and Maiar have ever heard this. It is outside of Mandos’ pay grade. There was talk in the session discussion with Corey about the decision being sent up the line from Mandos to Manwe, I don’t recall if they suggested it go any higher. It is not just a case of Mandos being moved to pity. I am sure that he has heard many pleas from the dead prior to this scene and, you know, rules are rules. He has to be genuinely surprised. Another possible element may be that Vaire has already predicted this in one of her tapestries. There are many elements that will factor into the final decision that is made to offer Beren and Luthien a new chance of life. My main request is that the musical element be present in the script.

There was talk in the discussion today of Mandos having a conversation with Luthien almost as sort of a professional curiosity: Mandos greets Luthien and tells her that she is unique in Arda. Luthien assumes that he refers to her lineage as daughter of Melian, but Mandos informs her that he is talking about her presence in Mandos as being a moment that he is not privy to with regards to foresight and fate. This gets at this moment being outside his purveiw. We did decide that he should be fairly adamant about his function and the way things must be between them, so that he could function as an antagonist for the scene, but there shouldn't be any trouble weaving in shock and awe at hearing the theme and making at least oblique reference to it when he departs to discuss with the rest of the Valar; it seems consistent to me with the beginning of the conversation, and his fascination with the uniqueness of her case as it relates to his role as Doomsayer.
 
Finrod is already gone/reborn
Great! Now we know how all in ME know about it - Luthien told somebody after her return.


Scene 6: Brethil - Mablung brings news of Beren’s death to Emeldir. He gives her the Ring of Barahir.
[...]
Scene 14: Mablung gives Beren the Ring of Barahir back.

Has Emeldir refused to take it as an elvish artefact?

There was talk in the discussion today of Mandos having a conversation with Luthien almost as sort of a professional curiosity: Mandos greets Luthien and tells her that she is unique in Arda.
[...]
...and his fascination with the uniqueness of her case as it relates to his role as Doomsayer.

But why would he be really surprised about that? Ainur mixing with the Eruhini is grey area and while tolerated by Eru, it seems not to have been part of the original song - as the Children itself were not fully revealed to the Ainur in it? So why would Namo expect to have foresight in this case?
 
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Great! Now we know how all in ME know about it - Luthien told somebody after her return.




Has Emeldir refused to take it as an elvish artefact?



But why would he be really surprised about that? Ainur mixing with the Eruhini is grey area and while tolerated by Eru, it seems not to have been part of the original song - as the Children itself were not fully revealed to the Ainur in it? So why would Namo expect to have foresight in this case?
I wouldn't expect him to, but that is in itself somewhat novel for him. I didn't use the word "surprise", my implication was that this is a blind spot for him, who has few blind spots, and that he is intrigued and a little excited by what Luthien represents not just as a very unique creature of very unique parentage, but also as a participant in a conversation that he cannot forsee the outcome to.
 
I understand Beren is to stay one-handed after reembodiment?

B&L go to live on a Island, Luthien is a mortal now = heavily impaired in comparison to what she was used to before for millenia, and in addition to that a very middle age woman. Beren does not hunt, now he even cannot hold a paddle for steering a boat. Does Beren eat fish? Cen he go fishing in the river?
I would love to see Luthien with a bow as a Diana-like huntress but would Beren even eat her game?
Have they got some magical seed from Yavanna while in Valinor they plant of the island to sustain themselves?

Then I challenge you to provide some scenes during the next seasons where we see Beren using his mouth and feet in the moments when he need his 2nd hand. And his sheer frustration when he has to ask Luthien or one of the Greenelves to teach Dior archery... You choose, then do deliver... ;)
 
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Ah, yes, the fate of the Ring of Barahir was something that we changed our mind on during the course of the discussion. Sending it to Emeldir was the final decision. I'll update the other reference.

And for Beren One-hand - yes, he would make use of his remaining limbs for dexterity. I have a student who was born with one arm, about elbow length, with one hand that has 3 fingers. His other arm ends at the shoulder. He can write legibly with a pencil, zip up and carry a backpack, plug in a computer charger, carry around and use a laptop, and many other tasks. He can't use scissors, but he can glue things down using a glue stick. I have to be careful with hands-on assignments so he can participate. He wears shoes to school, so he's accomplishing many tasks with the aid of his chin.

I am not sure how many storylines we'll have for Beren in later seasons, but I do expect him to use his stump, yes. He will certainly be no more helpless than the one-armed Bucky Barnes living as a goat farmer in Wakanda in the Marvel films. And of course our story already includes the one-handed Maedhros. It will good to differentiate how they each deal with their lost hand.


We kept coming back to the mythological nature of this episode, but of course the whole season is.

Here's a description of a folktale about stealing the moon as a brideprice:
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*this is the story I referenced on the podcast discussing Episode 11

And while there are many stories of journeying to the place of the dead to recover a lost soul... there's not much success. Sometimes what you bring back is false in some way. Other times the soul cannot escape due to a technicality. In still other stories, the person making the journey is trapped in the land of the dead. 'Becoming mortal' is a fate unique to Lúthien, so this story was always going to be a bit different!
 
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Ah, yes, the fate of the Ring of Barahir was something that we changed our mind on during the course of the discussion. Sending it to Emeldir was the final decision. I'll update the other reference.

And for Beren One-hand - yes, he would make use of his remaining limbs for dexterity. I have a student who was born with one arm, about elbow length, with one hand that has 3 fingers. His other arm ends at the shoulder. He can write legibly with a pencil, zip up and carry a backpack, plug in a computer charger, carry around and use a laptop, and many other tasks. He can't use scissors, but he can glue things down using a glue stick. I have to be careful with hands-on assignments so he can participate. He wears shoes to school, so he's accomplishing many tasks with the aid of his chin.

I am not sure how many storylines we'll have for Beren in later seasons, but I do expect him to use his stump, yes. He will certainly be no more helpless than the one-armed Bucky Barnes living as a goat farmer in Wakanda in the Marvel films. And of course our story already includes the one-handed Maedhros. It will good to differentiate how they each deal with their lost hand.


We kept coming back to the mythological nature of this episode, but of course the whole season is.

Here's a description of a folktale about stealing the moon as a brideprice:

And while there are many stories of journeying to the place of the dead to recover a lost soul... there's not much success. Sometimes what you bring back is false in some way. Other times the soul cannot escape due to a technicality. In still other stories, the person making the journey is trapped in the land of the dead. 'Becoming mortal' is a fate unique to Lúthien, so this story was always going to be a bit different!
Okay, so the Ring goes to Emeldir and to Dor-Lómin, correct? Now how does it makes its way back to the House of Thingol and consequently to the Havens? Is it sent with Grinthir and Gethron with Túrin and kept in a vault until Dior accedes to the throne of Doriath?
 
And for Beren One-hand - yes, he would make use of his remaining limbs for dexterity. I have a student who was born with one arm, about elbow length, with one hand that has 3 fingers. His other arm ends at the shoulder. He can write legibly with a pencil, zip up and carry a backpack, plug in a computer charger, carry around and use a laptop, and many other tasks. He can't use scissors, but he can glue things down using a glue stick. I have to be careful with hands-on assignments so he can participate. He wears shoes to school, so he's accomplishing many tasks with the aid of his chin.

But Beren was nor born so. A child's brain can adapt to an impairment by rearranging how the growing brain is wired. An adult can never reach quite this lever, and rehabilitation ususlly takes an experienced and well-educated trainer as a guide - whom Beren does not have.
How he would decide to expand his family when he is actually already a burden to his wife who again has struggles of her own? - He is unable even to help change or wash the diapers or the bring her the baby in middle of the night for breastfeeding - and she will have to sleep the night through now as a mortal woman... Or she needs to have like 2 servant ellyth with her. As servants do not "really" count in reports Tolkien - see "alone with his servant" - that would still be considered that B&L live on their own.
...
And of course our story already includes the one-handed Maedhros. It will good to differentiate how they each deal with their lost hand.

Maedhros is a an elf. A few weeks of getting used to the new situation and he is good to go.
 
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But Beren was nor born so. A child's brain can adapt to an impairment by rearranging how the growing brain is wired. An adult can never reach quite this lever, and rehabilitation ususlly takes an experienced and well-educated trainer as a guide - whom Beren does not have.
How he would decide to expand his family when he is actually already a burden to his wife who again has struggles of her own? - He is unable even to help change or wash the diapers or the bring her the baby in middle of the night for breastfeeding - and she will have to sleep the night through now as a mortal woman... Or she need to have like 2 servant ellyth with her. As servants do not "really" count in reports Tolkien - see "alone with his servant" - that would still be considered that B&L live on their own.
...


Maedhros is a an elf. A few weeks of getting used to the new situation anf he is good to go.
There's a lot of potential for missing hand gags with Beren. For example in Game of Thrones where most of Jaime's scenes in the Season 4 episode "The Lion and the Rose" is him adjusting to using his left hand instead of his right... badly. Do we want to go that route?
 
Okay, so the Ring goes to Emeldir and to Dor-Lómin, correct? Now how does it makes its way back to the House of Thingol and consequently to the Havens? Is it sent with Grinthir and Gethron with Túrin and kept in a vault until Dior accedes to the throne of Doriath?

Basically, yes! Sending Túrin to Doriath to be fostered is said to be done specifically in memory of Beren, so taking this heirloom as a token will help convey that connection. It can also be somewhat reminiscent of Beren gaining entrance to Nargothrond with the ring - Túrin gains entrance to Doriath, albeit for different reasons. So that is how we will get the Ring of Barahir back to Doriath later.

There's a lot of potential for missing hand gags with Beren. For example in Game of Thrones where most of Jaime's scenes in the Season 4 episode "The Lion and the Rose" is him adjusting to using his left hand instead of his right... badly. Do we want to go that route?

No, we'll have the adjustment period happen off screen. When we return to Beren, he'll be used to having one hand, and will have learned to complete tasks with the other hand, or making use of the stump/chin/shoulder/etc as needed.
 
There's a lot of potential for missing hand gags with Beren. For example in Game of Thrones where most of Jaime's scenes in the Season 4 episode "The Lion and the Rose" is him adjusting to using his left hand instead of his right... badly. Do we want to go that route?

Haven't seen that...
Admittedly, there is the potential to have some sweet scenes where cute little Dior helps his father out serving as his missing hand in some of the daily activities - still those would be problematic as nowadays showing children parenting their parents is not very much appreciated.
 
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But Beren was not born so. A child's brain can adapt to an impairment by rearranging how the growing brain is wired. An adult can never reach quite this level, and rehabilitation ususlly takes an experienced and well-educated trainer as a guide - whom Beren does not have.

Sure, it's harder for Beren, and he won't reach the same level of ease as someone who was born without a hand. But he will achieve some level of being able to live with his injury, and we're giving him plenty of offscreen time to develop that competence.

Similarly, Bucky Barnes was not born without an arm. He lost it in an injury, and had the missing limb replaced with an advanced (and permanent) prosthetic almost immediately. Not only that, but the metal arm is stronger than a regular arm, so he relies heavily on it in fight scenes, etc. (Example clip of his reliance on the metal arm from Civil War)

And so, he has had little to no experience living without an arm...until he is healed of his trigger words in Wakanda. He is, at this point, about 100 years old (though he did spend good chunks of his life frozen). Most of that time without his arm is off screen - we only see four clips of Bucky in Wakanda before he gets a new vibranium arm in Infinity War.

One: Bucky in Wakanda, healed after the battle in Civil War (but missing an arm), deciding to re-enter cryofreeze because of the trigger words (about 2 years before Infinity War) Note that he has not yet adjusted to the loss of the weight of the arm, and holds his injured shoulder higher.
Two: The trigger words removed in Wakanda, less than a year before the events of Infinity War (roughly 6 months)
Three: Bucky waking up healed of the trigger words and missing an arm, choosing to live a peaceful life in Wakanda (unspecified amount of time after the events of Black Panther, which happens shortly after Civil War)
Four: Bucky's peaceful life coming to an end when Infinity War arrives at his doorstep.

In the last clip, we see him slinging bales of hay, caring for goats, and presumably living on his own. We are not shown anything more of his time in Wakanda, so it is left to the audience to determine how he has learned to adapt and work with the limbs remaining to him. But he has clearly made it work - we see him at work for the two seconds that we see him in this life. And this is someone who has lost not just a hand, but an entire arm, and one that he was accustomed to relying on. You can't do the 'Wakanda Forever!' greeting with only one arm, so no doubt his injury is part of all his social interactions there. We do see that his time without an arm affects him later, when he mentions that he 'doesn't always think of it' first in situations. Significantly, this event comes shortly after someone forcibly removes the metal arm (albeit very temporarily).



I am fine with one-handed Beren caring for goats in Tol Galen, is what I am saying.
 
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