Script Discussion S06E13

[Rob Harding]

I think there’s an interesting element of Luthien, and Beren also, mirroring both the soldier’s/ptsd analogies of Sam and Frodo’s story. Returning home from events that others cannot truly fathom and being othered by your experiences even amongst those you now encounter who before might have been friends or peers. And perhaps moreso, especially with Lúthien, there’s something of the immigrant experience. Being a child of two worlds and belonging truly to neither. Having an identity that is uniquely your own. In terms of how this may relate to parenting: I mean, beyond an amorphous biological urge, what is the emotional impetus for anyone to have children i suppose is the question? But more so, what is the unique perspective of a first generation immigrant passing the blessings and trials of a new normal to their children? I mean, we won’t see all too much of it on this story, but the impact of that identity shift will be felt by Dior and perhaps their future descendants down the ages (and seasons).

On the note of Beren’s agency in the story, I think it’s more laying groundwork for the decision Luthien takes to be one that we come to see as being the one Beren would’ve made too and she is making it on his part as he is unable. Perhaps there is a line that can be seeded earlier in the story. As a consideration, Beren’s early life is defined by conflict. He fights FOR home. He then finds a new home in Luthien and fights FOR/WITH her for their future. But in many ways, Beren’s story is one of never experiencing the home he is fighting for (prior to his return). It’s struggle without true, deep peace. Having him express, in a quiet moment, the kind when new couples reveal their deepest dreams to each other, Beren could state his dream is that all the fighting will bring peace. And yes, that is a sort of an embodiment of what good looks like in this world. Planting trees that others will sit under. But Luthien sees he is never at peace. Perhaps, he also at some point reveals his deepest fear is that he will die never having truly lived. So Luthien realises she will never know peace without Beren and that without knowing peace, he will not have experiences all of life, so brings him back to give him his greatest wish and save him from his deepest fear? She knew he wouldn’t be ready to move on essentially. I don’t know but I think there’s something that needs planting so we see her decision as not solely coming from not wanting to be without him.

And I love the idea of Beren arguing his case also. Do we mean he is arguing to return? Perhaps the response is that, he has done what needs to be done. More than most. The world does not revolve around him essentially. And he can’t respond to that. He knows it doesn’t. He has lived his life. And Luthien is able to say, no, he hasn’t. And my world does revolve around him. At least, it can now. If the world does not hang on the acts of two people, what harm can there be in retuning. They know they are not valar. They will be unlike anything else. They will step down. Dwindle. This is the quiet chapter of their stories. They want to be able to fade together. And maybe there’s even a moment of Beren threatening that he won’t move on without Luthien and that as she can’t he would throw off the balance of reality. And it’s in everyone’s best favour to let them be less. Knowing for themselves, this fate of happiness together, will be far more than anything they’ve already experienced.

I’m not sure I love Dior being a ‘bargaining chip’ to be promised to others. But perhaps he can symbolically be. Part of that courtroom deal about their future fate and whether they can return.
‘What of your children? What will their fate be? There will be none like them in all of Arda.’
‘Yes. They will not. Not even us. They will not be our legacy. They will be their own. Free to be something else. More and less. They will belong to all peoples and none. They will not doom the world nor save it. But they will be part of it. That is all we ask. To be part of the world.’

Im spitballing, but I think you can really pump up the drama and stakes. Make it both cosmic and personal in the same breath

 

[Odola]

Having an identity that is uniquely your own. In terms of how this may relate to parenting: I mean, beyond an amorphous biological urge, what is the emotional impetus for anyone to have children i suppose is the question?

That is the issue that I have with Beren being willing to start a family straight away after losing his hand without any outward incentive. Usually he would have to have to have arrived at some a place of balance first - or he should see the child as a means to achieve this balance - e.g. by proving himself to Thingol (again).

But more so, what is the unique perspective of a first generation immigrant passing the blessings and trials of a new normal to their children? I mean, we won’t see all too much of it on this story, but the impact of that identity shift will be felt by Dior and perhaps their future descendants down the ages (and seasons).

Luthien is a mixed child from her very beginning. She might have some own longings and capabilities that surpass Arda that other elves do not share. But we have no mentioned this in our story.

On the note of Beren’s agency in the story, I think it’s more laying groundwork for the decision Luthien takes to be one that we come to see as being the one Beren would’ve made too and she is making it on his part as he is unable. Perhaps there is a line that can be seeded earlier in the story. As a consideration, Beren’s early life is defined by conflict. He fights FOR home. He then finds a new home in Luthien and fights FOR/WITH her for their future. But in many ways, Beren’s story is one of never experiencing the home he is fighting for (prior to his return). It’s struggle without true, deep peace.
Having him express, in a quiet moment, the kind when new couples reveal their deepest dreams to each other, Beren could state his dream is that all the fighting will bring peace.

But that is also a problem - can Beren deal with peace before his death at all? He seems to flee from it. Has not the struggle become his home, his addiction after those long years? Can he be at peace in peace?

I don’t know but I think there’s something that needs planting so we see her decision as not solely coming from not wanting to be without him.

It does look like a self-serving choice from Luthien's side as it is now.

And I love the idea of Beren arguing his case also. Do we mean he is arguing to return? Perhaps the response is that, he has done what needs to be done. More than most. The world does not revolve around him essentially. And he can’t respond to that. He knows it doesn’t. He has lived his life. And Luthien is able to say, no, he hasn’t. And my world does revolve around him. At least, it can now. If the world does not hang on the acts of two people, what harm can there be in retuning. They know they are not valar. They will be unlike anything else. They will step down. Dwindle. This is the quiet chapter of their stories. They want to be able to fade together.

This idea is interesting as the story says that nobody knows the place of their (2nd) grave.

And maybe there’s even a moment of Beren threatening that he won’t move on without Luthien and that as she can’t he would throw off the balance of reality.

Oh, I think she could have left just then and there with him? Or does she first need to experience the hardships of a human live to become entitiled to?

I’m not sure I love Dior being a ‘bargaining chip’ to be promised to others. But perhaps he can symbolically be. Part of that courtroom deal about their future fate and whether they can return.
‘What of your children? What will their fate be? There will be none like them in all of Arda.’
‘Yes. They will not. Not even us. They will not be our legacy. They will be their own. Free to be something else. More and less. They will belong to all peoples and none. They will not doom the world nor save it. But they will be part of it. That is all we ask. To be part of the world.’

That is interesting.

Still the Valar have an chip in the game here, too. They do have their own interest in keeping Luthien's line going - that was their own little cunning project from the beginning - to have their own Ainur input into both kinds of Eru's Children - by setting Melian up to seduce Thingol into marrying her. So I do not think Namo wold bring this subject up at all. The Valar would need to keep the possible future children as unpredestinated by any "a prori" assigments as possible for now - until they have both the human and the elvish line established and secured.

 

[Rob Harding]

But that is also a problem - can Beren deal with peace before his death at all? He seems to flee from it. Has not the struggle become his home, his addiction after those long years? Can he be at peace in peace?

For me, I think that’s the happy ending we could get. That catharsis in finally LETTING themselves learn to except this new peace. And we can have a montage or some discussion to acknowledge it will take time to adjust. But we get to see them accepting this gift they’ve fought for. For Beren to finally learn what it means to put down a sword. He literally loses his fighting hand and now has to learn how to symbolically do so

 

[Odola]

For me, I think that’s the happy ending we could get. That catharsis in finally LETTING themselves learn to except this new peace. And we can have a montage or some discussion to acknowledge it will take time to adjust. But we get to see them accepting this gift they’ve fought for. For Beren to finally learn what it means to put down a sword. He literally loses his fighting hand and now has to learn how to symbolically do so

But this is complicated by the fact that the only thing Beren is reported to actively do after his return from Mandos - beyond dancing with Luthien and having a child - he will organise and lead expedition to avenge Thingol on the dwarves - and a battle of pure vengence does not fit that arc?

 

[Rob Harding]

But this is complicated by the fact that the only thing Beren is reported to actively do after his return from Mandos - beyond dancing with Luthien and having a child - he will organise and lead expedition to avenge Thingol on the dwarves - and a battle of pure vengence does not fit that arc?

Do we show that? I can’t recall if it’s in our story outline?

 

[Odola]

Do we show that? I can’t recall if it’s in our story outline?

Not this season, but in one of the the followng. Still - we should not contradict ourselves in also across seasons?

 

[Ange1e4e5]

That is the issue that I have with Beren being willing to start a family straight away after losing his hand without any outward incentive. Usually he would have to have to have arrived at some a place of balance first - or he should see the child as a means to achieve this balance - e.g. by proving himself to Thingol (again).



Luthien is a mixed child from her very beginning. She might have some own longings and capabilities that surpass Arda that other elves do not share. But we have no mentioned this in our story.



But that is also a problem - can Beren deal with peace before his death at all? He seems to flee from it. Has not the struggle become his home, his addiction after those long years? Can he be at peace in peace?



It does look like a self-serving choice from Luthien's side as it is now.



This idea is interesting as the story says that nobody knows the place of their (2nd) grave.



Oh, I think she could have left just then and there with him? Or does she first need to experience the hardships of a human live to become entitiled to?



That is interesting.

Still the Valar have an chip in the game here, too. They do have their own interest in keeping Luthien's line going - that was their own little cunning project from the beginning - to have their own Ainur input into both kinds of Eru's Children - by setting Melian up to seduce Thingol into marrying her. So I do not think Namo wold bring this subject up at all. The Valar would need to keep the possible future children as unpredestinated by any "a prori" assigments as possible for now - until they have both the human and the elvish line established and secured.

But it does take awhile for Beren and Luthien to start a family; in canon it takes four years or so (for example in Downton Abbey where Matthew and Mary were worrying about the latter being infertile after just one year of marriage due to a spinal injury). So does that mean Dior's age will be bumped up?

 

[Rob Harding]

Not this season, but in one of the the followng. Still - we should not contradict ourselves in also across seasons?

I would say, this still fits into Beren having to LEARN to allow themselves this new himself. Falling back on his old ways doesn’t mean his journey isn’t still progressing.

 

[Odola]

But it does take awhile for Beren and Luthien to start a family; in canon it takes four years or so (remember in Downton Abbey where Matthew and Mary were worrying about the latter being infertile after just one year of marriage). So does that mean Dior's age will be bumped up?

No idea. Maybe it will take longer?

466	Beren and Lúthien take one Silmaril from Morgoth. Beren loses his hand to Carcharoth. The Hunting of the Wolf. The first death of Beren Erchamion. Birth of Urwen.
467	The first death of Lúthien. Lúthien sings before Mandos, who releases both her and Beren from the Halls of Mandos.
468	Birth of Hunthor. Thingol refuses to join the Union of Maedhros.
469	Death of Urwen. Orcs driven from Beleriand. Beren and Lúthien return to Middle-earth.
470	Births of Dior and Hardang.

Timeline/First Age

.

tolkiengateway.net

As no months are given this is 2-3 years from 467.
If Luthien gets back from Valinor already pregnant then her pregnancy is longer than a human one. If she gets pregnant after settling in Tol Galen she has had a normal human pregnancy.
If we keep the birth date as 470 then we have +4 years in our timeframe so we have room to play with it.

[This is the 1st time that I do notice that there is the possibility of Dior having been conceived in Valinor - I do not know how long reembodiment takes once it is approved - but still, there seems time enought for that...]

 

[Odola]

I would say, this still fits into Beren having to LEARN to allow themselves this new himself. Falling back on his old ways doesn’t mean his journey isn’t still progressing.

Yes, but this is almost at the very end of his road.

502	The Dwarves of Nogrod set the Silmaril in the Nauglamír. Death of Thingol. Melian returns to Valinor. Tuor weds Idril.
503	Births of Eärendil and Elwing. The Battle of the Thousand Caves. The Battle of Sarn Athrad. Death of Mablung of the heavy hand. Lúthien wears the Silmaril. Dior and his family come to Menegroth. Final deaths of Beren and Lúthien. Dior receives the Nauglamír and Silmaril.

Timeline/First Age

.

tolkiengateway.net

 

[Rob Harding]

I suppose then it’s all the more significant. That ‘one last ride’ type of act. A man who was a warrior and hero finally puts down the sword but is made to pick it up again, whether by emotion or through a debt of allegiance (depends how we interpret it, perhaps we give it more personal stakes and even have a direct threat to loved ones made very present), and so this is his final act of taking up the sword. But we can still have a full narrative arc this season and let that ‘coming out of retirement’ be for later. It could even be seen as a sad and bitter moment when Beren falls back to what he knew. Maybe played honourably as a personal sacrifice or as a moment of weakness and a relapse to old ways. We can decide how to play that later I suppose. Again, have we confirmed Beren’s role on it in our interpretation though? I guess when we get there we can decide if it’s vital or if his chapter can remain closed

 

[Odola]

I suppose then it’s all the more significant. That ‘one last ride’ type of act. A man who was a warrior and hero finally puts down the sword but is made to pick it up again, whether by emotion or through a debt of allegiance (depends how we interpret it, perhaps we give it more personal stakes and even have a direct threat to loved ones made very present), and so this is his final act of taking up the sword. But we can still have a full narrative arc this season and let that ‘coming out of retirement’ be for later. It could even be seen as a sad and bitter moment when Beren falls back to what he knew. Maybe played honourably as a personal sacrifice or as a moment of weakness and a relapse to old ways. We can decide how to play that later I suppose. Again, have we confirmed Beren’s role on it in our interpretation though? I guess when we get there we can decide if it’s vital or if his chapter can remain closed

But Tolkien sides with you here, as later he does remove the vengeance from Beren and gives it to the Feanorians:
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
In later writings Tolkien changed who was ambushing the Dwarves from Beren to Celegorm and Curufin.[5] In The Tales of Years it documents the many revisions that Tolkien made for the event, the first notable entry being:

503. Birth of Earendil in Gondolin.
The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian takes Nauglamir to Beren and Luthien and then returns to Valinor. Celegorm and Curufin destroy the Dwarf-host at Sarn-athrad in Rath-loriel; and are wroth to find the Silmaril not there. Dior goes to Doriath.
— J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part Three. The Wanderings of Húrin and Other Writings not forming part of the Quenta Silmarillion: V. The Tale of Years"

Christopher noted that this was a major change to the story which has remained the same in all versions.[5] The latest version of The Tales of Years written in typescript the entry goes:

503. The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath. King Elu Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian escapes and carries away the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, and brings them to Beren and Luthien. She then forsook Middle-earth and returned to Valinor.
Curufin and Celegorm, hearing of the sack of Menegroth, ambushed the Dwarves at the Fords of Ascar as they sought to carry off the Dragon-gold to the mountains. The Dwarves were defeated with great loss, but they cast the gold into the river, which was therefore after named Rathloriel. Great was the anger of the sons of Feanor to discover that the Silmaril was not with the Dwarves; but they dared not to assail Luthien. Dior goes to Doriath and endeavours to recover the realm of Thingol.
— J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The War of the Jewels, "Part Three. The Wanderings of Húrin and Other Writings not forming part of the Quenta Silmarillion: V. The Tale of Years"

Ultimately Christopher settled with the earlier versions of Beren ambushing the Dwarves when piecing together the complicated story of the Ruin of Doriath for The Silmarillion, a decision he later admitted was a mistake.[5]

Tolkien explained in Letter 247 that after Beren's return from the dead, he only showed himself once more among the mortals. And that was to intercept the dwarf-army that had sacked the realm of Doriath and had slain King Thingol, carrying off the treasury, including the Silmaril. On the participation of the Ents, who aided Beren against the Dwarves, he wrote, "Beren, who had no army, received the aid of the Ents - and that would not make for love between Ents and Dwarves."[6]

Battle of Sarn Athrad

The Battle of Sarn Athrad was a battle fought on F.A. 503 between the Dwarves of Nogrod and Elves of Ossiriand led by Beren. The battle occurred after the Battle...

tolkiengateway.net

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


So that is an option that is worth considering.

 

[Rob Harding]

Good ol’ John boy. I think he may the right call

 

[MithLuin]

There are many conflicting versions of the later tales, and in most cases, we have not made any decisions regarding 'which version' to go with...it will be a case by case choice as we work through that part of the story. The consistent part is that the silmaril (in the Nauglamir) comes to Lúthien after the death of Thingol.

Beren + Ents fighting the dwarves is the version in the published Silmarillion, so we will certainly consider that option. But Melian saving the necklace while the Fëanoreans fight the dwarves is also a possibility.

That event occurs after Dior is grown, though, so we're talking 25+ years in the future and 4 seasons from now. Beren and Lúthien can retire in peace and have a family as their story at the end of this season. Dior will not be conceived prior to the return from Valinor. He will not be born this season. It will be possible to show Lúthien pregnant in Tol Galen if we want to...but I'm not sure we would want or need to do that here.

Because of the large time gap between the 'retire in peace' and the possible conflict Beren could become involved in, I see no contradiction in having them embrace peace as an ending to this season's story arc. It's not a 'lie' simply because it might not last...that is always the case with peace, isn't it? No guarantee that it will continue.

 

[Rob Harding]

Exactly this. And I think that desire for peace together being expressed earlier in this season can allow Luthien’s act to still be a joint decision

 

[Odola]

Beren + Ents fighting the dwarves is the version in the published Silmarillion, so we will certainly consider that option. But Melian saving the necklace while the Fëanoreans fight the dwarves is also a possibility.

Would be bring the story with the dwarvish dragon's gold which lands in the river to an end. This seems to be more connected with the Feanorians than with Beren. I have also trouble to imagine ents fighting over gold - or were they special friends to Thingol?

Dior will not be conceived prior to the return from Valinor.

Understood. But still, now that I have discovered that Dior having been conceived in Valinor is actually a plausible possiblity in-story my mind is simply overflowing with the ideas of the possible implications it would have had... Delightfull...

 

[MithLuin]

To me, the main advantage of that time gap is that Lúthien doesn't instantly get better - her people have time to mourn her loss before her return.

But... it's unlikely we'll be able to show that. She's going to be dead for at most half an episode, and Doriath is a fairly static place, so there are unlikely to have been changes showing the passage of time while she's gone. The focus will be on healing the winter of Thingol, but that doesn't clearly tell the audience that she's been gone for years...he is distraught, but she could have been gone a month and he would have been distraught.

 

[Odola]

so there are unlikely to have been changes showing the passage of time while she's gone.

Oh, a sapling planted at the grave mound would resolve this easily - a 1 versus 3 years old tree can look different enough...

e.g. here:

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Height Age
20-60cm 1 yr
40-60cm 2 yr
60-80cm 2 yr
80-100cm 2 yr
80-100cm 3 yr
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125/150cm 3 yr

 

[MithLuin]

The Feanorians do not attack while she is wearing it - why? Why do they not do it before she gets it - e.g. while the dwarves still have it?

This came up on the most recent podcast, actually! The role of Díriel in the escape from Angband is not a secret. She helped Beren and Lúthien liberate a silmaril, at the cost of her own life. While the Oath of Fëanor is not exactly redeemable, her selfless approach to wanting a silmaril to be free from Morgoth even if she herself cannot be is free from the possessiveness that characterized Fëanor's view of the silmarils.

Had an oathbound Fëanorean been present, there likely would have been an immediate demand to hand it over...but there wasn't.

So, having heard the story of how the silmaril escaped Angband, it is possible that one reason why the Fëanoreans delay demanding the silmaril from Lúthien is in deference to Díriel's choice and sacrifice.

As for them attacking the dwarves...as we've already discussed, we can only do that if Melian has secured the silmaril, because the dwarves will lose that fight.

 

[Odola]

This came up on the most recent podcast, actually! The role of Díriel in the escape from Angband is not a secret. She helped Beren and Lúthien liberate a silmaril, at the cost of her own life. While the Oath of Fëanor is not exactly redeemable, her selfless approach to wanting a silmaril to be free from Morgoth even if she herself cannot be is free from the possessiveness that characterized Fëanor's view of the silmarils.

Had an oathbound Fëanorean been present, there likely would have been an immediate demand to hand it over...but there wasn't.

So, having heard the story of how the silmaril escaped Angband, it is possible that one reason why the Fëanoreans delay demanding the silmaril from Lúthien is in deference to Díriel's choice and sacrifice.

O.k. but why then does this reservation not extend to Luthien's only son? Such blood debts are usually inheritable.

Or do the Feanorian's have a blood feud with Beren which cancels it and they do not go after Beren only because he has died already? It seems not convincing to me why such a reservation would be specifically bound to Luthien only. Especially as they had no inhibition to go after her before and even to shoot at her. Has Celegorm made Caranthir swear not to go after Luthien as long she is alive, or something? The dynamic is not clear to me.

As for them attacking the dwarves...as we've already discussed, we can only do that if Melian has secured the silmaril, because the dwarves will lose that fight.

Melian bringing the Silmaril resolves another issue - the Silmaril is Thingol's and Thingol's official heir is Dior, not his mother. So it should go to Dior straight away. But Melian as Thingol's widow has the right to distribute his things among his descendants. So if she herself hands the Silmaril to her daughter this should be fine, then. Luthien keeps it for only fo a few months then before her 2nd death both in 503.

On the other side, how does Melian not know she is basically killing her daughter by handing the jewel to her? It is reducing Luthien's lifespans so that she dies in the very same year. And that she also dooms Dior, his wife and his sons and his kingdom to destruction only 3 years from now in 506. How could a Maia like Melian not see that coming?
But even Beren who has been to Valinor and should have some grasp how the world works now as a resurrected person - how comes he does not simple throw the thing into the river after the dragon gold but brings it back to kill his wife - and by extention himself, and then bring destruction upon his nearest kin - son, daughter-in-law and grandsons? The thing just basically killed Thingol - one of greatest elven kings ever - Beren should know better than to bring that thing home.

Or does Beren "fall in love" with the Silmaril that he sees it cleaned up in Thingol possession just after Beren's return from Valinor? This would be the only moment for Beren to do so, as later he is confined to Tol Galen. Then it would make sense that he goes after it after hearing of Thingol's death and that the dwarves now have it. Would turn whole story a little sinister.