Script Discussion S06E13
- Thread starter MithLuin
- Start date
Odola
Well-Known Member
Bad data points. Most of political problems of the House of Feanor stems from Finwe having "moved on". So the Feanorians have seen and lived the exception from the time they were old enough to look. The "elvish normal" is not normal for them.
Maeglin is fixated on his own (political) career. If Idril "likes him" or not is secondary.
Last edited:
Perhaps. But we have a total of those data points plus Finrod on the question of 'what would an elf do after the death of a mortal spouse/lover?'
They all conclude 'move on and love someone else' because they think that reasonable, they are thinking of themselves, and they know about Finwë. Only Finrod looks at the situation from the outside and concludes that the elf (his brother Aegnor in this case) would never love again.
Notably, no elf who loves a mortal seems to ever consider the possibility of loving someone else after, so it is safe to conclude that Finrod is wise and they are wrong.
They all conclude 'move on and love someone else' because they think that reasonable, they are thinking of themselves, and they know about Finwë. Only Finrod looks at the situation from the outside and concludes that the elf (his brother Aegnor in this case) would never love again.
Notably, no elf who loves a mortal seems to ever consider the possibility of loving someone else after, so it is safe to conclude that Finrod is wise and they are wrong.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Still, it is understandable for them to think as they do, wrong or not, from their own standpoint.
Yes, exactly - they're wrong, but they don't know they're wrong. So conventional wisdom/ elf society may agree with them (based on Finwë) until proven wrong.
By the time people like Pengolodh of Gondolin get around to writing this all down, the examples from the first age (and the half-elven) exist, so it is not so much hypothetical supposition going on.
By the time people like Pengolodh of Gondolin get around to writing this all down, the examples from the first age (and the half-elven) exist, so it is not so much hypothetical supposition going on.
Odola
Well-Known Member
Another issue - it is said the Luthien's beauty and the Silmaril combined burned to brightly for the mortal lands and as such Luthien died sooner that she otherwise would when she got the Silmaril (she died the same year that she got it).
[...] but it is said and sung that Luthien wearing that necklace and that immortal jewel was the vision of greatest beauty and glory that has ever been outside the realm of Valinor; and for a little while the Land of the Dead that Live became like a vision of the land of the Valar, and no place has been since so fair, so fruitful, or so filled with light.
[...]
Long did Dior gaze upon the Silmaril, which his father and mother had brought beyond hope out of the terror of Morgoth; and his grief was great that death had come upon them so soon. But the wise have said that the Silmaril hastened their end; for the flame of the beauty of Luthien as she wore it was too bright for mortal lands.
The Silmarillon Chapter 22
Which in text is 36 years (and in our timeline 40) years after her return from Mandos.
This means if Luthien did age "normally" after her return from Mandos and she was 25-45 (whatever we decide here) in mortal years whan she got a mortal body that she was around 61-85 years at the time when she got the Silmaril - and none of the ages between 61-85 is time when a mortal woman is in her full beauty still.
So if we show Luthien aging this would make this part of the story nonsensical.
Something to consider now in our decission how much of the "full mortal woman package" Luthien can receive in our story.
Last edited:
Odola
Well-Known Member
So Dunadain rate for Luthien? Then Dior too? Normal human aging until 21 and 1/3 afterwards? What about Beren - Dunedain rate too? Or he would look much too old for her at the end?
"Leithian" = Release from Bondage
"Tenn’ Ambar-metta" = Unto the Ending of the World
Thus They Lost Her Whom They Most Loved
Journey's End
"Dor Firn-i-Guinar" = Land of the Dead that Live
We've had several great suggestions, and Nick adds one more to the list:
I AHIMEARDA
THE WORLD CHANGED
It's interesting, because it mirrors constructions such as Arda Unmarred, Arda Marred, and Arda Healed. This is none of those in particular, but Arda Changed. It also has a 'The World Turned Upside Down' vibe to it.
Q. Arda Alahasta pn. “Arda Unmarred” (also Arda Vanya)
Q. Arda Hastaina pn. “Arda Marred” (also Arda Harina, Arda Sahta, Arda Úvana)
Q. Arda Envinyanta pn. “Arda Healed” [Renewed]
To Change: Transitive verb [which raises the question - did the love of Beren and Lúthien change the world, or did the world change itself in response to Beren and Lúthien? I'm going with the former, as it's their story, but there could be an argument for 'the world has changed' rather than 'we have changed the world.']
gwista- (Sindarin)
vista- (Quenya)
If "Arda" is a proper name, then it doesn't need the article 'the'. But if "the World" is like "the Shire," then we can use 'the' in the Sindarin translation (per the King's Letter).
Arda Changed = Arda Vistaina (in Quenya)
The World Changed = i+ Gardhon + Gwistannen = I 'Ardhon 'Wistannen ? [I am fairly shaky on the lenition here] (in Sindarin)
Last edited:
Nicholas Palazzo
Well-Known Member
I figure I should probably post the script document link here as well: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XGEwRIftg00awnprn3d1wYYlJT21GunphH1O2n0kWEs/edit?usp=sharing
Work has in fact begun, with the Teaser scene being written. More will come, but I definitely felt it was high time that the process was begun.
Work has in fact begun, with the Teaser scene being written. More will come, but I definitely felt it was high time that the process was begun.
I know we have resolved this misunderstanding, but I did want to address one point....
Michelle Yeoh, age 60
She is beauty, she is grace;
She will kick you in the face.
Angela Bassett, age 62
Tilda Swinton, age 62
Iman, age 67
Helen Mirren, age 71
Judi Dench, age 72
I know that our society is much more comfortable with men being well preserved and aging well, whereas post-menopausal women are often compared unfavorably to their younger selves. Mostly, I just wanted to point out that no one would say that to Helen Mirren's face, or else they'd get verbally eviscerated.
But for Silm Film purposes, we have already cast the Lúthien actress, and we will not be recasting her in future seasons. So, any alterations in her appearance are at the level of makeup, not human aging (beyond the time it takes Silm Film to reach the season where Lúthien dies). Her slower aging will explain the slower aging of the Númenoreans later.
WE JUST WANNA TALK.
Michelle Yeoh, age 60
She is beauty, she is grace;
She will kick you in the face.
Angela Bassett, age 62
Iman, age 67
Helen Mirren, age 71
Judi Dench, age 72
I know that our society is much more comfortable with men being well preserved and aging well, whereas post-menopausal women are often compared unfavorably to their younger selves. Mostly, I just wanted to point out that no one would say that to Helen Mirren's face, or else they'd get verbally eviscerated.
But for Silm Film purposes, we have already cast the Lúthien actress, and we will not be recasting her in future seasons. So, any alterations in her appearance are at the level of makeup, not human aging (beyond the time it takes Silm Film to reach the season where Lúthien dies). Her slower aging will explain the slower aging of the Númenoreans later.
Last edited:
Odola
Well-Known Member
The 3 first women above were obviously helped by modern cosmetic medicine which was no available in the 1st age and the latter while attractive are very well past their high of beauty. Even with a Silmarill 80% of 14-24 year old girls would be ranked higher on the beauty scale alone because of being young. Fertility markers are a big part of natural human female beauty - there no way around it.I know that our society is much more comfortable with men being well preserved and aging well, whereas post-menopausal women are often compared unfavorably to their younger selves. Mostly, I just wanted to point out that no one would say that to Helen Mirren's face, or else they'd get verbally eviscerated.
Last edited:
I teach 15 year olds. I am aware of the beauty of youth, even if they seldom are. I imagine that the silmaril provides a unique glow-up for Lúthien, an effect not seen when Morgoth wore it.
Hollywood has notoriously lost interest in casting women over 40, and yet these women all continued to have careers.
Angela Bassett 25 years ago in How Stella Got Her Groove Back (1998) at the age of 39:
And in a recent interview:
Angela Bassett currently plays an LA police officer on 9-1-1.
So maybe 60 is the new 40; I am okay with that, to an extent. But again, I dare you to say this to the face of any woman in my above post!
Hollywood has notoriously lost interest in casting women over 40, and yet these women all continued to have careers.
Angela Bassett 25 years ago in How Stella Got Her Groove Back (1998) at the age of 39:
And in a recent interview:
”Hollywood is famously not great with women who pass the age of forty. Did you sense a change after that in how you were being used by the industry?"
I heard that was sort of a moment, and you could see it in your white counterparts, women who had been, like, the girl next door. You’re seeing them all the time, and then at a certain point you’re not seeing them so much. But I kept working. I never felt, All right, well, the good years are done now. I wasn’t going to be No. 1 on the call sheet. But there are other opportunities where I can shine, where I can bring my special brand of whatever, even if it is in a supporting capacity. Maybe it’s voice-over or animation. It’s theatre, if I could get back there. That’s the way I saw it.
Angela Bassett currently plays an LA police officer on 9-1-1.
So maybe 60 is the new 40; I am okay with that, to an extent. But again, I dare you to say this to the face of any woman in my above post!
Last edited:
Odola
Well-Known Member
still this ancient times we are speaking about, even 100 years ago people looked far older when just in their 30's
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
We're not talking about a 70-year gap though; Lúthien might have a streak of grey in her hair, Beren might have salt-and-pepper.
Yes, perhaps 7 years will go by in real time, so our actors may be pushing 40. Nothing too extreme.
In screen time, ~40 years will have passed, so Lúthien will appear to be aging quite a bit slower than a 'regular' human would in that span. We may want Beren to appear to have aged a bit more than her...but that is a question for makeup and costumes several seasons from now, so I am not particularly concerned about this now.
In screen time, ~40 years will have passed, so Lúthien will appear to be aging quite a bit slower than a 'regular' human would in that span. We may want Beren to appear to have aged a bit more than her...but that is a question for makeup and costumes several seasons from now, so I am not particularly concerned about this now.
Odola
Well-Known Member
This is partially dependant how old does Luthien start out - the span is 40 years which is the difference between 10-50 or 20-60 or 30-70 years - a substantian span. If Luthien with the Silmaril is the most beutiful phenomenon ever - even too beautiful for the mortal world - which is not even a thing claimed for Varda herself - then she still has to be the most beautiful female being to begin with. She cannot look older than a modern 40 old at the very most.
Last edited:
Ange1e4e5
Well-Known Member
Hence why I suggested that she'd have a streak of grey in her hair by the time the story catches up to her some 40 years down the road (Beren and Lúthien takes place in 462 in our version; assuming we're keeping a lot of dates the same) and Beren have more salt-and-pepper style hair.
On the other hand if the timeline is changed, other changes must follow.
Exactly.
Lúthien is the reason why the Númenoreans (and later the Dúnedain) age differently from 'normal' humans. We cannot show Lúthien aging to a 70 year old human appearance in just 40 years. It would cause a lot of problems later if we did that!
Viggo Mortensen was around 40 or so when he played the 88-year-old Aragorn. Jessica Brown Findlay likely will be around 40 in her final scene as Lúthien for our fantasy production. So, yes, she may be noticeablely a little older...but will have an adult child.
I do strongly reject the premise that no woman over 40 can be beautiful, though!
Lúthien is the reason why the Númenoreans (and later the Dúnedain) age differently from 'normal' humans. We cannot show Lúthien aging to a 70 year old human appearance in just 40 years. It would cause a lot of problems later if we did that!
Viggo Mortensen was around 40 or so when he played the 88-year-old Aragorn. Jessica Brown Findlay likely will be around 40 in her final scene as Lúthien for our fantasy production. So, yes, she may be noticeablely a little older...but will have an adult child.
I do strongly reject the premise that no woman over 40 can be beautiful, though!
Odola
Well-Known Member
While she can be beautiful in herself, she will always be outshined by a 20-25 year old of average beauty if not helped along by the achievements of modern cosmetic medicine which simply were not availiable in prehistory, inventend or not.