Session 1.11

michael dennis said:
So here's a thought on tying them all together, brought to you by tonight's backup on the Capital Beltway:

Osse's territory is basically where Ulmo's realm meets Aule's. This is the root of all three stories.

1. Osse is shaping the coasts according to his own whim. Gets all in a tizzy and starts whipping islands about. Aule is angry and sends his people (including Sauron) to deal with it. Afterwards, Osse is sulking and Melkor comes up to him with the classic drug-dealer-on-a-lost-kid act: Buddy, what's wrong. I bet I can help!
2. Osse falls for it and gains strength. Aule's people are hard pressed to protect his lands. But Sauron suspects what really happened and is awed by the growth in Osse's domination.
3. Aule comes to Ulmo and basically says, dude, get your people in line. Meanwhile, Sauron is approaching Melkor for the first time (for contrast and irony).
4. Ulmo calls in Osse. He pretends he's ok but Uinen gives him up. She turns to Osse and says, "dude, I love you. I don't want to lose you. I had to tell." Osse is angry but in awe of her love, which saves him.
5. Melkor makes secret pact with Sauron. Sauron returns and pretends to obey Aule, but Aule is suspicious of changes in his behavior and gradually gives him less to do, unwittingly driving Sauron closer to Melkor. He's not going to repent and obey like that faker Osse!
6. Aule is put off by the whole series of events and starts to ponder his next action. This train of thought leads somehow to the dwarves.

At the end of the season, Sauron can disappear from the battle and all think he is lost. But we see him sneaking into Angband to help his true master, and he stays there after the war. (Or not, he could come back and do more fake-repentance if we want). Melkor's fake repentance in season 2 could be actually an idea he got from Sauron in the first place.

I'm sure there are a lot of details to flesh out, but I couldn't resist trying to get all three into an intersecting story of some sort.
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This is great! I would like to suggest that Mairon defects just before the war. He could be part of the host of Valar but on the way to Utumno he sneaks away and goes to Angband, where he knows a couple of balrogs are. He tries to warn them and send one of them to alert Melkor. They might not be responding favourably to that.
 
MithLuin said:
YES! This is what I was looking for with multi-episode inter-twining story arcs!

It's important that these incidents don't all happen as discrete, independent storylines. Weaving together Aulë, Ossë and Mairon(Sauron) would be great. ESPECIALLY since Mairon's stuff is all secret background and not the main event.

I've been trying to get a feel for Uinen and Ossë as a couple. Ossë is coasts, and he's enamored of chaos (like storms). Uinen is all the seaweed in all the streams as her hair...so she has a coastal association as well; neither of them are deep sea people. Ossë has a great friendship with the Teleri. The Numenoreans have that same friendship with Uinen, trusting her to protect them from Ossë's wrath and storms. So....she gets this 'calming' and 'restraining' thing going on indefinitely, not just during Ossë's rebellion.

I am wondering, then, if Ossë has a bit of an anger management problem? If...after his brush with Melkor, there are long-term effects? Sure, he can come back to the good side...but he's not the same as he was before. This would have a 'there's always scars when you fall that far' vibe, and will potentially paint Uinen as a woman who stays with an abusive spouse despite his rages. That's...bad. So it would be *essential* to show that she can actually calm him down, bring him back from his chaos, be a sense of calm and peace. That, no matter what, he never lashes out *at her* and that she does not fear his anger because it is not dangerous for her (the way Arien wouldn't fear fire). She can weather his storms, and both of them find it very essential to have the other person in their lives.


Also, episode 8 ends with Melkor looking down on the Trees from the Pelori, so he is out for blood and, oh, hey, wouldn't you know, who happens to be along the coast but a recently-rebuked Ossë at the beginning of episode 9.....
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Oh I agree that we have to be careful with how we portray Uinen and Ossë and their relationship. I agree that it's possible to see him as one having fits of rage and sometimes being out of control. And that would almost make her some kind of codependent and their relationship dysfunctional. We don't want that, right? Maybe there is a tendency towards that in his rebellion, but I think that after that, his storming should be much more controlled. He knows on some level how much of his chaos the seas can take, and the seas and the life in them are ok with this. Most of the life forms in the ocean and along the coasts survive storms, after all. Uinen would still need to temper him, since he might not be very perceptive while in the storm, and some life form that actually could risk getting hurt might come in his path.
 
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My own thought is that the Osse/Uinen stuff needs to be done with great care. Man-saved-by-love-of/for-woman is a critical "type" but it needs to be set very carefully.

I'm also not sure how we would get from this outline to Aule's desire for "children" to teach, but I think it's in there somewhere.
 
We managed to get some of it in there.... (sorry that he credited me for bringing up the connection between Aulë and Ossë - I said it was from you here on the messageboard, but he wound up reading the passage from the published Silmarillion to get us all on track anyway).
 
Sounds like a lot got done this weekend. Sorry I missed the podcast this week, I was totally focused on being awake for my Mythgard class that I forgot all about the Session on Friday. It's gonna wreck my Saturday, but I think I may just need to stay up all night. The podcast is over for me at like, 1 or 1:30 in the AM, and then I have class at 5:00. I've never been very good at cat napping... once again life teaches me that you can never do everything you want, leastways not without grinding yourself into hamburger.

I hadn't considered that Osse's rebellion could be impetus for the making of the dwarves. That's a lot to think about. I think it can work, but I'm not immediately seeing the scenes making sense without a lot of exposition. Need to wrestle with it for a while.
 
Honestly, it might be easier than you think. We can leave this episode with a long (timewise, not distancewise) shot of Aule in his workshop, looking disturbed and thoughtful, and then switch to another such shot of his hammer and chisel. The shot can end suddenly with Aule's hand reaching in and grabbing the tools.

The following episode is when we would have some exposition in the frame, with Elrond explaining Aule's mindset. How he was worried for the Children, that they may not come until it is too late, and be dominated by Melkor and all that.
 
Here is the rundown of where we are in the second half of the season (anything in red is just my thoughts tossed in):

7. Establishment and fortification of Valinor - Valar debate; introduction of Mandos, Lorien, Vairë and Estë...back to the frame
8. Development of Valinor, intro rest of Valar, some Maiar - Light the Trees (Yavanna and Nienna), Manwë and Melkor meet in Utumno, Oromë and Tulkas hunt the beasts, Melkor looks down on the newly lit Trees from the Pelori

9. Rebellion of Ossë - Aulë sends Mairon to repair the coasts (of Valinor?) after one of Ossë's storms. Melkor and Mairon discuss the annoyance of Ossë's unpredictable powers (Mairon keeps this conversation to himself). Melkor meets Ossë and 'shows by example' how he could break his bounds (Must show Melkor's distaste for the Sea). Ossë enthusiastically copies this example, and Melkor gives him some power (and instructions?) Melkor thinks that ruling all of the Sea would be a temptation, but Ossë is just like, 'hey, cool, destructive power!' By the end of the episode, we see the issues with hurricanes everywhere - perhaps Manwë has to stand up on Taniquetal and use strong winds to blow the storms out to Sea to protect Valinor?

10. Redemption of Ossë - Coasts in utter disrepair. Mairon seeks out Melkor to complain about the incompetence of the Valar in dealing with Ossë. Melkor reveals his, 'Really, what could possibly go wrong here?' scheme of letting Ulmo and Ossë duke it out. Aulë goes to Ulmo and says, "Get your people under control!" Ulmo grumbles about Melkor being the real problem, but promises to take care of it in a way that does not bode well for Ossë. Enter Uinen, who essentially says to Ulmo, "Let me talk to him." Uinen seeks out Ossë, and their conversation focuses on the loneliness of unrestrained chaos [while she puts him in a headlock or something.] Meanwhile, Aulë has retreated to a workshop under a mountain somewhere in Middle Earth...

11. Creation of the Dwarves - Aulë, impatient for the arrival of the Children, makes the dwarves. Iluvatar has a little chat with him. DWARVES!! [Frame: Thorin and Company visit Rivendell.]

12. Anticipation of Firstborn (Mandos) - Aftermath of Aulë's near-fall. Yavanna and Manwë and the Ents and Eagles. Varda and the Constellations. Eagles discover Melkor's gruesome menagerie.
13. “The War to Begin All Wars” - War, Chaining of Melkor (Middle-earth will now be a place of strife)

I am trying to summarize so we can see how things fit together, without overstepping with my own ideas (not necessarily mentioned in the podcast), so I've just color-coded everything to deal with that. Not sure what level of spy-activities we want to assign to Mairon, if any.
 
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Well, one thing I would definitely have Mairon doing is informing Melkor of the creation of the Dwarves. The two of them could basically see Iluvatar's intervention as a sign that the Valar are incompetent. Also, it alerts Melkor to the fact that the Children will be arriving soon, and he can do some mustache-twirling over that.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
Honestly, it might be easier than you think. We can leave this episode with a long (timewise, not distancewise) shot of Aule in his workshop, looking disturbed and thoughtful, and then switch to another such shot of his hammer and chisel. The shot can end suddenly with Aule's hand reaching in and grabbing the tools.

The following episode is when we would have some exposition in the frame, with Elrond explaining Aule's mindset. How he was worried for the Children, that they may not come until it is too late, and be dominated by Melkor and all that.
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That shot in particular seems easy to me, but understanding that scene and how we got there is less clear to me. I guess it works better for me if Osse's rebellion has either just wrapped up, or is wrapped up in the episode. I guess the problem is for me that I'm not seeing how making the dwarves is necessarily an appropriate response to Osse's rebellion, y'know? Like, what is the problem he's trying to solve with the dwarves, is the sticking point for me. In the Silmarillion I seem to recall it was sort of a general "I'm tired of waiting for the Children". That's not quite the same as the sort of spin we've put on it, which is "We actively need something like the children so I'll whip up a stop-gap." Maybe that's not what we've been saying, but let's try to get at the core conflict that brings about the dwarves: I feel like any time a piece of media doesn't nail down motivations and conflicts, things wind up just happening and falling flat (it happens in video games aaaaaaaaaall the time, so frustrating).

And the latest episode just went up, so I'm gonna catch myself up and see if I'm missing anything that you guys haven't already duly covered in the thread.

Edit: and I just realized we didn't get a thread for episode 12!
 
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New post just to keep everything chronological and distinct: I listened to the podcast and heard the bit about Aule's domain being assaulted by a wild and willful Osse, and I've got some nuggets of ideas about how that could fuel the desire for "extra hands" to maintain his domain. Does that scan for you guys, that Aule's original intention was to have sort of a natural race of builders and maintainers and that when Iluvatar makes gives his creation life they end up avoiding the ocean altogether due to Aile's own dictates for the erosive power of the ocean?

I think the seed is there, but I think it might be easy to have the whole thing feel hokey.

Edit: I realize this all works better if Aule's been sort of stewing on Osse for a while. This feeds into the whole impetus to retreat to Valinor in the first place. If Osse v. Aule has been a thing from earlier in the season and part of the "discord" that is stressing Manwe out, and it comes to a head because Melkor is actively seeking to build his own pantheon, supplanting Ulmo (in his mind, his strongest opponent) with Osse. Aule feels picked on and, like most everyone in season one, is starting to doubt that Manwe has what it takes. And of course, his solution is to make something to fix the problem, leading to the dwarves, something that he can count on because he's ALWAYS IN CONTROL OF IT. This seems like the kind of thing Aule could easily not see as a real transgression, but seen from this angle, it has obvious shades of Melkor. It could lead to some interesting conversations with Mairon, and it plugs into everything else we've got so far.

Critiques? Thoughts? Hisses, boos, rotten vegetables?
 
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I'm wondering what is happening with this thread. Have I missed something? We didn't start a new thread for session 12, and I'm beginning to worry about the next one. I haven't seen Phillip in here for a while. I really hope he is ok. Or maybe we need someone else to start episode threads. Also, I listened to the podcast and I noticed that the hosts weren't really picking anything up from the forum. Maybe they didn't feel the need to, but some of the ideas that came up during the session were quite similar to ideas that we talked about here. So I wonder if they just didn't look at this old thread before doing the session. Maybe that's not the case, but if it is, then we need to start a new thread. Anyway, later on, when we go back to find ideas and discussions, we will want to find them in threads sorted by session number.
 
ouzaru said:
New post just to keep everything chronological and distinct: I listened to the podcast and heard the bit about Aule's domain being assaulted by a wild and willful Osse, and I've got some nuggets of ideas about how that could fuel the desire for "extra hands" to maintain his domain. Does that scan for you guys, that Aule's original intention was to have sort of a natural race of builders and maintainers and that when Iluvatar makes gives his creation life they end up avoiding the ocean altogether due to Aile's own dictates for the erosive power of the ocean?

I think the seed is there, but I think it might be easy to have the whole thing feel hokey.

Edit: I realize this all works better if Aule's been sort of stewing on Osse for a while. This feeds into the whole impetus to retreat to Valinor in the first place. If Osse v. Aule has been a thing from earlier in the season and part of the "discord" that is stressing Manwe out, and it comes to a head because Melkor is actively seeking to build his own pantheon, supplanting Ulmo (in his mind, his strongest opponent) with Osse. Aule feels picked on and, like most everyone in season one, is starting to doubt that Manwe has what it takes. And of course, his solution is to make something to fix the problem, leading to the dwarves, something that he can count on because he's ALWAYS IN CONTROL OF IT. This seems like the kind of thing Aule could easily not see as a real transgression, but seen from this angle, it has obvious shades of Melkor. It could lead to some interesting conversations with Mairon, and it plugs into everything else we've got so far.

Critiques? Thoughts? Hisses, boos, rotten vegetables?
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I think Aulë knows that what he is doing is a transgression. At least on some level. He is creating the dwarves in secret, in the darkness of Middle-earth. He is impatient and can't wait for the fulfillment of Eru's plans. He might see himself as the instrument of Ilúvatar, the maker of the Children. But I think he knows he is doing the wrong thing. People do things they know are wrong, after all. He just needs to give himself enough reasons to look past that.
 
These are the questions from the session notes:

How should we handle the elements of the next episode?
1. Aulë? How do we transition into his story? How Aulë has been involved and how do we get to the Dwarves?
2. What are we going to do about Eru’s depiction and Aulë’s repentance
3. Yavanna, Ents and Eagles

I agree with you Ozuaru that Aulë should have had issues with Ossë for a while. He's also, as everyone, affected by the chaos of the world at this stage. I'm not sure he thinks Manwë isn't up to the job, but he sees that Manwë has a lot on his plate and maybe focused primarily on Melkor and Ulmo. There is a lot of communication breakdown going on, and I think that Aulë reacts to that by giving up cooperating and instead isolates himself, trying desperately to fulfill his own dreams of having children to teach. Maybe he does think he is the instrument of Ilúvatar. In that case, he might create the dwarves in secret not because he knows it's wrong, that part he just pushes away, but it's like he is preparing a surprise.
One problem with this secrecy is that the audience might have difficulty understanding what's happening. But he might give away clues. Let's say the Valar (or maybe just Aulë and Yavanna) are talking about the coming of the Children, he might act in a way that implies that he knows something. She would then ask him about that, and he kind of laughs and winks but then acts innocent. Or he could try some words in his invented language.

In the published Silmarillion, it says that Eru's voice is heard. I don't know what to make of that, but I could actually see it work. If Aulë is with the dwarves in a dark cave chamber, the voice of Ilúvatar could come from the darkness. An alternative could be that, when he has created the dwarves, and is leaving the cave, he is met at the opening, before coming out into the open, by a bright light and the voice. I think it could work.
 
Philip was logged in yesterday, so I don't think there's any cause for panic.

There was only one week between sessions this time, which did not leave a lot of time for doing things like posting new threads or podcasts or session summaries. Everything else is being taken care of...we just didn't get a new thread. I'm sure we'll get a new one before the next session.

...and maybe I should have read the episode notes before making my summary. I didn't hear parts of the session and apparently missed some things, oops.
 
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Perhaps there could be a rather playful discussion in early episodes where Aule complains to Ulmo about that Osse always wrecking his stuff. Nothing too combative, just to drop some foreshadowing.

The full explanation of Aule's motives can be easily given by Elrond in the frame, however, we do want to show his growing concern as much as possible. When he goes with Manwe to Ulmo, before he goes off by himself to leave the Ainur to talk he can ask something to the effect of, "How did he do all of this by himself?" He moves off, staring in confusion and perhaps some wonder. We could even borrow a bit from that 'Seduction of Mairon' comic that has had links posted here occasionally. Aule could feel or hear something (some things) that could raise his suspicions. Manwe calls him back before he can dig any deeper.

Whenever the subject of the Children comes up, Aule should show his impatience. "But when? When are they coming, Kementari?" he asks of Yavanna. (For some reason, I've decided that Kementari is actually his pet name for her.)

After Aule has his final confrontation with Ulmo over Osse, he could even talk with Orome, who has been searching for the Children. Maybe that conversation takes place in Aule's workshop, and Aule's increasing anxiety becomes apparent. We have the 'Thoughtful Aule' shot, ending the 'story' part of the episode.

The next episode gives us the arrival of the dwarves. When Estel questions their place in the 'order of things', Elrond explains Aule's thought process for anyone who didn't pick up on it in the previous episodes, and next we see him hard at work, chiseling stone into forms. We should look at what other storylines we want to tell in this episode, because we are starting to run out of time to tell subplots, but I do not think that Aule's story will take up more than 20-25 minutes to tell.

Not sure where we want this, but when Yavanna says to Manwe, "But it was in the Music!", I see a sequence where we rush into Manwe's mind and see a vision that he sees from the point of view of a flying creature. We fly over a brilliantly lit (we don't see how) world, full of green. Perhaps we might even forshadow Gondolin here. (That is, I agree, simply Rule of Cool.)
 
As for 'What else?' needs to go into the Aulë and the dwarves episode, consider that we will be spending more time on the frame than usual, as Estel has to see/meet some dwarves before we get started.

Also....are we going to see Melkor begin the construction of Angband? Do we need to see the 'pits' of Utumno? What do we have to do to set up Melkor's side of 'war is brewing'?
 
I think you are right about that. Also, is this where we see Mairon given lordship over Angband? Or do we hold that back for the next episode. Maybe Mairon brings Melkor word of the eagles and ents and Melkor decides that this is certainly going to end in war, and brings Mairon to Angband and establishes his role in the hierarchy, much to Gothmog's chagrine.
 
As far as Aulë's motives go, I came across this comment in Session 10 (47-52 mins.):

Mariel says: "Could Aulë begin making the dwarves in response to all the disorder, in fear the Children won't come because of it?"

Corey Olsen points out that Aulë made the dwarves to resist Melkor, strong to endure the chaos. They are "designed to be weapons."
He is talking more generally about the concept of discord, and how going to war is, in the end, a failure of Manwë's policy of diplomacy...and how Aulë's actions show he has already capitulated, and accepted the strife as a given for those living in Middle Earth. Aulë is not rebelling against Iluvatar (he doesn't think). He is, however, building an 'army' for a war Manwë hasn't sanctioned yet...and pre-empting the work of Iluvatar.

And that would make Iluvatar's judgment to 'delay' the awakening of the dwarves a bit of a corrective, telling Aulë he shouldn't anticipate others' actions (whether Iluvatar's or Manwë's). And it also shows Aulë's mistake as a loss of hope...he has 'given up' on Iluvatar sending the Children, because the world is too much of a mess for them, so he's mourning the loss...and then acting on his own.

But more importantly for us, it introduces a connection between Ossë's chaos and why Aulë would them respond by...making his own Children to teach. I mean, keep in mind that he goes far enough down this path that Iluvatar interrupts while he is hanging out with his dwarf-puppets teaching them to be what he wants them to be..... If we do this, we should have Aulë go off to his workshop before Ossë repents, showing that he was too impatient to see if Uinen's intervention would work, that he's 'given up' on restoring order too soon. As a craftsman, he is about fixing problems. So....he's working towards a solution.



And I agree that we should not miss the opportunity to show competition/tension between Gothmog and Mairon. They should hate each others' guts, with a passion, and Melkor should smile to see this.
 
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