Session 2.12 for S2E08

Phillip Menzies

Moderator
Staff member
Questions for the next session on Friday the 21st of October 2016 which covers the trial and release of Melkor, are:
  1. How much of the episode should be wrapped up in the trial itself?
  2. To what extent are the elves aware of or involved in the trial?
  3. What do we do apart from the trial? (B story?)
  4. Do we introduce the third generation of elves or wait until episode 9?
 
Ok, I obviously like the idea of having one or two reps from each branch. However, if we decide (really when the execs decide) to NOT have elves present AND we show that the majority of the Valar are suspicious of Melkor then one of the Valar, or a group of them, should council all three leaders to be WARY. How derelict will it look to the audience if we show the Valar being openly suspicious then they release Melkor amongst these "children" without even counseling? Really you have to show some VERY "Melkor is a changed guy" Valar OR you have to show at least one scene where the leaders are briefed to be very cautious.

Shawn, I was thinking something roughly along the lines of that, too: having some of the Valar brief the leaders AFTER the trial, that way we could preserve the idea of showing how the Ambassadors have changed since their first visit to Valinor. So we get inclusion and we get to see the Ambassadors but....they still didn't get to attend the trial. The thing is, would having yet one more meeting be a bit cumbersome in this episode? I personally think it's a great middle ground for what we're trying to achieve, depending on how we do it. I still like Haakon's idea of the elves observing from afar.... I like a lot of these ideas, actually.... It is rather tricky indeed.
The question is, what would the Valar be afraid Melkor would do? The things he actually does start doing are kind of hard to predict I think. He starts to lie to the Noldor using half truths. How would anyone have guessed?So what would the Valar tell the elves?

I think it would be quite natural for the Valar to be wary about Melkor. I think the more cautious and hesitant they are about this whole situation the better, in terms of not making them look too gullible and easily won over. What would the Valar be afraid Melkor would do? At this point, he's just been released from prison. Who knows what he could do...and right there that *might* be enough to cause threads of anxiety in anyone. He's a wild card, or could be seen as such until he proves his "sincerity" in the period following his release. I don't have a clear picture of what the actual briefing-the-Ambassadors would look like, I admit...maybe the Valar who brief them could summarize the trial, say they've released Melkor but they're concerned about him and would like to keep him near, in Valmar, for a bit? There are so many angles for us to take with this matter (Trial, release, etc.)
 
Last edited:
I think part of this dilemma can be solved if we consider the architecture of the area around the Ring of Doom. Perhaps the Ring of Doom is in the center of a natural amphitheater so the Elves are 'there', but they're removed from the action. While I'm sure that the Valar could make arrangements so that they are seen and heard to everyone in the amphitheater (being majestic cosmic beings and all), but the Elves would still be removed from the action.

And, let's not forget that while the Valar are of a higher order, they are not infallible and they are not omniscient. Maybe its because of the Valar's wariness of Melkor that they 'exclude' the Elves not realizing that by doing so, they actually aid Melkor in planting seeds of dissension.
 
Well the one thing to keep in mind is the "entity" being released. What could Melkor do? Well this is long before the greater part of this power left him; so he could DO just about anything he wanted. In addition, the Valar present were very aware of this. I still believe, and after this post I promise I won't hit this horse again haha, that Melkor should be portrayed as a frighteningly powerful being. Tolkien made it very clear that in the beginning he had no equal. Honestly, I've always thought this part of the story to be one of the hardest to swallow ... no responsible parties would ever release a being that powerful, with that criminal history, among the general population - EVER. But, it IS the story we need to tell so there's some compromise in there. The Noldor are maybe warned to be cautious around him? Haakon is right about the Vanyar and the Teleri ... he probably will have little interaction with either.

How much of the episode should be wrapped up in the trial? I know the execs said in the last live session that it was going to be the main theme of this episode ... so it should be a good portion right??
 
Maybe this parole idea could be developed a bit... perhaps Melkor isn't allowed to move around freely. The Valar could say that he has to stay in or around Valmar?
 
Ok sometimes it's good to actually open the published Silmarillion...
Conclusions after doing just that:
Melkor is released after having completed his term of bondage. Manwë seems reluctant to talk to him but he is brought before the thrones of the Valar, before the gates of Valmar. This means that they have this trial in the Máhanaxar, the Ring of Doom.
Now Melkor looks upon their glory and bliss, and is filled with envy. And he looks upon the Children of Ilúvatar sitting at their feet, and he is filled with hatred.
So the elves are obviously there.
Melkor also looks upon the wealth of bright gems and lusts for them.
He hides all of this. Instead, he abased himself and sues for pardon. He vows that 'if he might be only the least of the free people of Valinor' he will aid the Valar in all their works - and most of all in the healing of the many hurts that he has done to the world. Nienna aids him. Námo is silent.
Manwë grants him pardon but he is put under surveillance. He is constrained to live within the gates of Valmar.
But: it is important to notice that he actually is helpful in the beginning. Everyone is really suspicious but he really does good. People ask him for help and he helps them. After a while Manwë is calmed by this and happy to let Melkor move around more freely. Only Ulmo and Tulkas aren't deceived.
 
That is a pretty salient point. I just assumed we all read the text material and were coming up with various angles that might work for the adaptation. :D I actually would like to see a scene in which Tulkas literally does clench his fist while observing Melkor and/or maybe expresses to one of the Valar his displeasure and somewhere in there the line 'those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel' gets used (whether by the Vala in question, or Tulkas himself, conceding). But then he walks away and mutters "I still don't trust him", or something like that. At this point Melkor is practically a saint and nearly everyone has accepted him. Tulkas may be dismissed as being a bit paranoid, or as just holding a grudge, but we could follow up and contrast with an Ulmo scene, where less (if anything) is said but more is definitely felt.
 
Well I must confess that when it comes to reading carefully, I had failed for a couple of days. I apologise for spreading confusion.

I think that we could show Tulkas and Ulmo exchanging comments on the malice of Melkor but it should not become an organised opposition. They don't naturally meet very often, and apparently fail to prevent Melkor from spreading his evil. We might show them in the background as Melkor is helping out and doing good.
 
I think we should begin the episode with Manwë hesitating to release his brother. One or two of the other Valar convinces him to finally do so. Nienna might appeal to his compassion. Námo might say that It Is Time. There should be a buildup to the trial itself. The Valar arrive at the Ring of Doom, one by one. Some of the elves dare to join, others don't want to. Finally, Melkor arrives. He should be as good looking as before, and just as charismatic. The sudden show of repentance and remorse should take people by total surprise and be quite powerful. He must be very convincing.
 
The sudden show of repentance and remorse should take people by total surprise and be quite powerful. He must be very convincing.

Wait, are guys reading the text! It's no wonder Haakon keeps making his good points and solid logical arguments ... jeez :p

Yes, I think it would be great if the audience was even buying into it ... maybe like, "... the Tulkas guy should really cut him some slack.".
 
Well I must confess that when it comes to reading carefully, I had failed for a couple of days. I apologise for spreading confusion.
Wait, are guys reading the text! It's no wonder Haakon keeps making his good points and solid logical arguments ... jeez :p
Oh no! Haakon, I didn't mean to imply that you were slacking, I'm so sorry if it came across that way! :oops: I literally and honestly meant that all of these ideas have been pretty interesting, and I wasn't going around thinking "But the text says *this*" for the finer details. I'm not even sure if I'm articulating that properly, just know that I didn't mean to imply any offense or snark in the slightest degree. The apology is entirely mine. :oops::oops:
 
Last edited:
Oh no! Haakon, I didn't mean to imply that you were slacking, I'm so sorry if it came across that way! :oops: I literally and honestly meant that all of these ideas have been pretty interesting, and I wasn't going around thinking "But the text says *this*" for the finer details. I'm not even sure if I'm articulating that properly, just know that I didn't mean to imply any offense or snark in the slightest degree. The apology is entirely mine. :oops::oops:
Good, it seems we're fine. :)
 
It is important to keep in mind that the text is more a 'condensed history' than a description of a scene. So, we could read it very literally and exactly, and conclude that we need blinged-out Noldor with their gems present at the trial, as well as Vanyar sitting at the feet of the Valar. Or, we could think of ways to expand this scene to incorporate all of the necessary details. For instance, Melkor could be brought (in chains) from the Halls of Mandos to the Ring of Doom for his (re-)Trial. On the way, he can see the elves, and maybe even pass by Tirion, and the audience can see his surprise (and maybe resentment) as he looks silently on the wonders of Valinor. The elves would all be staring at him in shock/surprise. Any 'negative' reaction on his part can be chalked up to the humiliation of being paraded in public in chains. And then when we get to the actual trial, and he speaks, that is when we hear the words of humility, and of wanting to help fix the problems he caused, etc. Whether or not the elves are present during the trial is something we can decide based on the story we are telling, but Melkor would still look on the elves before the trial in that longer version. As a 'for instance'.

Likewise with the probationary period - it's in the text, but over in the next sentence after it begins, so it *feels* like the Valar just set him loose in Valinor recklessly. I think we need to see Melkor establishing trust and winning over some reluctant respect from the Valar. Maybe having Oromë be dead set against letting him out in the beginning (he's protective of the elves), and then as time goes on and Melkor actually helps/teaches the elves, Oromë shows some grudging acceptance. We'd still need a private conversation with Manwë and Varda (or Nienna?) to show where he stands on all of this.
 
I think there's no doubt that the PubSil has its limits. Nevertheless, it tells a story, and I think we should use it as much as we can. We will always need to flesh out the sketchy skeleton that this story is, and we have to take into account and often use the other versions of this story. This time however, I think that for example the lines in PubSil describing the Children of Ilúvatar sitting at the feet of the mighty Valar is such a powerful picture that it would be a pity to not use it.
 
Something that we have forgotten I believe when talking about Tirion in particular is the white tree Galathilion in Tirion (why is it named in Sindarin by the way?) planted as a small version of the Telperion, and the seedling Celeborn on Tol Eressëa. We should show this, preferably before Melkor is released, in the 'noontide' episode.
 
I know we mentioned the White Tree of Tirion at one point (probably in the script discussions), but haven't really come up with any way to work it into the story (just part of the scenery, I guess, at this point). I agree that it should be fairly prominent - in the main square next to Finwë's house, or something - but did you have any ideas for how to work it into the story?
 
My current idea of how this episode should look goes something like this (obviously open to alternative suggestions):


Opening - Flashback to the Trial of Melkor at the end of the War of the Powers. The audience learns that his imprisonment had a time limit on it.

Some indication that we've reached the end of that time, and Melkor is brought to his...parole hearing. Most of the Valar and some elves(?) are present.

The first Vala to speak basically suggests locking Melkor back up until the end of Arda. Melkor says his part about wanting to fix the things he broke. There is more grumbling from the other Valar about how that's not a good enough reason. Melkor explains that he acted in anger before, but he regrets that now and that is not who he was meant to be. Then Nienna speaks up, saying that he needs to be given the chance to show he has changed. Manwë agrees, but puts a bunch of restrictions on him. Melkor will remain in Valmar and be accompanied by another Vala at all times. Melkor, to everyone's surprise, agrees to these terms and says something like, 'That's only fair.'

Everyone is very suspicious of Melkor. He interacts with some of the Vanyar quite cordially, but they give him a wide berth. Oromë is annoyed that Melkor got let out, and is undecided between insisting on guard duty himself, or getting out of Valmar so he doesn't have to look at the guy. He goes out on a hunt to blow off some steam, and we meet Celegorm (3rd Son of Fëanor) who is friends with the hound Huan in Oromë's entourage.

One of the Valar who is very concerned (Tulkas?) comes to Manwë and Varda and has a private conversation with them about how they can't do this, it's a terrible idea. Manwë has the opportunity to say what he really thinks of his erstwhile brother, and why he is giving him this chance. Interlocuter!Vala is unconvinced, and says Melkor will be locked up again shortly, but it's just a question of how much damage he does in the meanwhile.

Meanwhile, back in Tirion - no Melkor here yet. Fëanor has quarreled with Fingolfin (again), and Finarfin is trying to act as a peacemaker/go-between. Meanwhile, we see that their eldest sons (Maedhros son of Fëanor and Fingon son of Fingolfin) are great friends who are getting sick of the tensions between their families and would like to heal the rift. Not sure what ideas they come up with. Indis (and her daughters?) are the transition back to Valmar.

Meanwhile, in Valmar, Melkor has been on *impeccable* behavior. He's shown humility and good humor. He's been helpful and friendly. He is not at all the Melkor he was before. At least one of the Valar/Maiar starts to have doubts. Has he really changed so much, as he seems to? This character seeks out Nienna, to ask her if she thinks that Melkor's change is sincere. Does she? Or does she limit herself to speaking of the *potential* of the situation?

Melkor does *something* to gain a lot of trust. WHAT? We need to come up with some action he could take that would convince people he's no longer bent on world domination and monster creation. [And yet still be very...Melkor-like.] Does it have something to do with Tol Eressëa? That was 'his' volcanic island. Ulmo and Tulkas remain unconvinced. Námo remains strangely silent on all of this.

By the end of the episode, Melkor has convinced the Valar of his good intentions, and Manwë relaxes the terms of the parole. He still has to stay in Valinor (he's not allowed to go back to Middle Earth), but he has more freedom of movement and fewer gaolers minding him and following him about all the time. He is able to visit the Two Trees and Tirion and Alqualondë. He...takes no interest in Alqualondë (water is not his thing), but seems quite taken with Tirion.
 
I know we mentioned the White Tree of Tirion at one point (probably in the script discussions), but haven't really come up with any way to work it into the story (just part of the scenery, I guess, at this point). I agree that it should be fairly prominent - in the main square next to Finwë's house, or something - but did you have any ideas for how to work it into the story?
I don't have any great ideas, perhaps we can just show it in a montage. It is a process that doesn't contain very much drama and is perhaps easy to miss. But we can't not show it - the trees will be so very important.
 
I have to admit that when we get this far, the idea of Tol Eressëa as 'Melkor's island' has become a symbolic problem for me. I'm fine with having his volcanic island become the Ferry, which means that his destructive power is used for good purposes, but if it becomes an object of interest to him now it will be somehow made into something tainted forever. Not a lot but enough to change the idea of the island as England and ruin it a bit.
 
Last edited:
Good call - let's keep that off limits to him during this Season. He would stay away from the water, so there would be no reason for him to go there.

But we do need to have *something* for him to do that puts the doubts to rest. Any idea?
 
Back
Top