Session 3.14 - S3Ep9: Battle in Beleriand

The fall of Men storyline would be interesting, although the Tale of Adanel from the Athrabeth would need some modification to fit it into the Flat World setting where Mortals don't awake until first Sunrise. It has Morgoth/Melkor personally visiting Hildorien (which is also in some other texts) but he's beautiful instead of hideous and terrible, so it takes place before the chaining of Melkor.

Beren and Luthien can be Season 6, unless for some reason everybody quits. I doubt that'll happen. :)
 
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I like the ideas for the battle with the Green Elves. Killing Denethor early is a good idea.

I'm not a fan of not showing Thingol's part of the battle. I know we want to do an irony thing, but I can't help but feel that it would be better to show the full battle in its entirety. There are only 6 big battles in the First Age, and it would be a shame for half of the first one to be off camera. (Beating my favorite dead horse: what is the SilmFilm project for if we skip stuff like this?)
 
I hear you, dietlbomb. This is Thingol's one and only chance to take part in a battle - it would be a shame to miss it entirely.

As a bit of a compromise, when we discussed the script outline, we made sure to show the leadup to the battle. So, Thingol has his army in place, and he's waiting for the dwarves to arrive (after having received word that they're on their way), when the orcs discover their location and attack, beginning the battle. The Green Elves, whose position is to the south, see this happen and attack the rear of the orcs to support Thingol. Then, we don't see Thingol's army again until they arrive to save the day at the end of the battle.

Hopefully, that still preserves the tension of, 'Will the Sindar arrive in time?' without completely cutting Thingol out of the battle.
 
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And the hope was for that scene to show Thingol's army totally kicking Orc butt, even more effectively than the Ents.
 
Well, the scene in which Thingol saves the Green elves is something. That shouldn't be cut too short. That's where we get to see Sindar mowing down orcs, the actual winning scene of the battle. It can't be just 'oh look there's Thingol, well everything is all right then, let's have some lunch'.
 
Faelivrin said:
And the hope was for that scene to show Thingol's army totally kicking Orc butt, even more effectively than the Ents.
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Now that's an achievement, considering the Ents leveled Isengard when their numbers were dwindling in The Two Towers.
 
So far I am quite happy as the developement of the Season went. An Ambiguous Saeros as Denethor´s Lieutenant...
Ents and Dwarves as... not fully realiable allies. Fine with it.
 
Ents are not naturally war-like. They've seen battle before (Yavanna had them with her during the first War to begin all Wars), but they aren't easily brought to the field or brought to attack. This is the first time they've seen orcs. But by the late 3rd Age, they've had *plenty* of time to ruminate on just how much they dislike the wanton destructiveness of orcs, and how much they want the orcs gone. Here and now? They're more "What's this?" about the whole thing.
 
And yet it takes them a while to declare war on the Orcs. Though given their language takes a long time to say anything.
 
Faelivrin said:
We'll have to use flashbacks some of the time, or we'll be in awkward places regarding the history of the Dragon-Helm, and the overlap of the Turin and Tuor stories. Look what an aversion to flashbacks got us this season!

I think it's OK to have scenes where Mim relates the history to Turin, which I think he actually did do. We should also show the Dwarves of Eryd Luin offering Nulukkizdin/Nargothrond to the Grey-Elves and/or to Finrod, kicking out the Petty-Dwarves, and then lying to the Elves about having inhabited it themselves in the past (to explain why it was clearly inhabited). Finrod wouldn't willingly exile non-Orcs from their homes, so the mountain Dwarves have to make up a story that's plausible to him (I oppose the idea that Finrod ever knew the truth, because it would not at all be morally acceptable to him). But we can and should show the mountain Dwarves actually driving out the natives, so Mim doesn't come out of absolute nowhere. (Mim himself couldn't have lived at Nulukkizdin, but his grandparents or maybe his parents (as children) could have.)
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Maybe we don't need to have a flashback, just have someone tell the story? Perhaps like Quint talking about the USS Indianapolis in Jaws? All there is in that scene is Quint talking, and the violin cuts in...
 
Yeah, I'm using "flashback" loosely to mean depicting or discussing at length something in the past, instead of showing it happening as it happens.
 
I too think that Thingol's scenes should be shown, because it's one of the only chances we will get so see Thingol in action. Thingol does not cover himself in glory in the Beren and Luthien saga, but even Elrond likes to trace his line through Thingol rather than Finwe or Fingolfin. I think we need to establish that Thingol is a big deal. With Tolkien physical stature is often linked to greatness of a person and Thingol is the tallest of all the children. I feel that he has to be the most intimidating Elf we see.
 
cellardur said:
I too think that Thingol's scenes should be shown, because it's one of the only chances we will get so see Thingol in action. Thingol does not cover himself in glory in the Beren and Luthien saga, but even Elrond likes to trace his line through Thingol rather than Finwe or Fingolfin. I think we need to establish that Thingol is a big deal. With Tolkien physical stature is often linked to greatness of a person and Thingol is the tallest of all the children. I feel that he has to be the most intimidating Elf we see.
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We currently have two scenes with Thingol in battle in the script outline, which is probably as far as we can push it, given the hosts' desire to keep the focus on the Green Elves. Also, we have a few more episodes where Thingol doesn't have much to do, so we can likely figure out a way to give him more fight scenes.
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
We currently have two scenes with Thingol in battle in the script outline, which is probably as far as we can push it, given the hosts' desire to keep the focus on the Green Elves. Also, we have a few more episodes where Thingol doesn't have much to do, so we can likely figure out a way to give him more fight scenes.
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Yes I understand the emphasis is on the Green Elves and the death of Denethor. It's more just a general idea, whenever Thingol is about. The way that Aragorn looks almost greater than a normal man, like an Elf-lord on numerous occasion, I always felt that Thingol was almost greater than a normal elf-lord almost like a Maia.
 
cellardur said:
Yes I understand the emphasis is on the Green Elves and the death of Denethor. It's more just a general idea, whenever Thingol is about. The way that Aragorn looks almost greater than a normal man, like an Elf-lord on numerous occasion, I always felt that Thingol was almost greater than a normal elf-lord almost like a Maia.
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Certainly. He is a second-closest thing to the Ainur that the Sindar can see. I think everyone is agreed that when Thingol is in battle, it will be awesome, in the original sense of the word.
 
One suggestion at last night's scripting was for Thingol to fight his way back from Amon Ereb to Doriath through some scattered leftover Orcs. I doubt there would be many (most would have been in Boldog's band) but there could be some. He can also wield a sword against the spiders that are about to attack Menegroth.

But I think there should be ways to show his great stature (not literal physical tallness) in other activities besides battle.
 
Faelivrin said:
One suggestion at last night's scripting was for Thingol to fight his way back from Amon Ereb to Doriath through some scattered leftover Orcs. I doubt there would be many (most would have been in Boldog's band) but there could be some. He can also wield a sword against the spiders that are about to attack Menegroth.

But I think there should be ways to show his great stature (not literal physical tallness) in other activities besides battle.
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We're definitely going to bring up the "What is Thingol Doing All This Time?" question with the hosts on Friday. And of course, if we do use the version of his death from the Silmarillion, we have an incredible opportunity for him to wreak havoc while surrounded by enemies. River Tam would have nothing on him in that scene.
 
I don't agree with the hosts' priorities here. Thingol is a major character and the Green Elves are not. I'm all in favor of having an episode featuring the Green Elves, but that is because this is the Silmarilion Film Project and we have the luxury of spending as much time on any part of the Silmarilion as we want. If we do an episode on the Green Elves at war, we should do 2 for Thingol.

I don't understand how we can have a project dedicated to delving into the deepest recesses of the Silmarilion legendarium where we salivate over showing the voyages of Earendil, or just mining Tolkiens unpublished works for apocryphal material, yet we skip over centuries* of the Beleriand story and shortchange one of Thingol's most exciting triumphs because we don't have enough episodes and we don't want to do flashbacks. Well, we need more episodes if we want to do the material justice.

And we need to do flashbacks. Tolkien does flashbacks all the time. And we have a frame narrative, whose entire purpose is to contextualize the Silmarilion story for the audience. Given the existence of our elaborate frame narrative, framing the flashbacks isn't a challenge, and in fact is a natural outgrowth of our story's narrative structure. Embrace the fog!


*Consider the voyages of Earendil. We can do anything there and it would be lots of fun. Why don't we have the adventures of Beleg and Mablung? We could spend a whole season in pre-Noldor Beleriand following these characters.
 
dietlbomb said:
I don't agree with the hosts' priorities here. Thingol is a major character and the Green Elves are not. I'm all in favor of having an episode featuring the Green Elves, but that is because this is the Silmarilion Film Project and we have the luxury of spending as much time on any part of the Silmarilion as we want. If we do an episode on the Green Elves at war, we should do 2 for Thingol.

I don't understand how we can have a project dedicated to delving into the deepest recesses of the Silmarilion legendarium where we salivate over showing the voyages of Earendil, or just mining Tolkiens unpublished works for apocryphal material, yet we skip over centuries* of the Beleriand story and shortchange one of Thingol's most exciting triumphs because we don't have enough episodes and we don't want to do flashbacks. Well, we need more episodes if we want to do the material justice.

And we need to do flashbacks. Tolkien does flashbacks all the time. And we have a frame narrative, whose entire purpose is to contextualize the Silmarilion story for the audience. Given the existence of our elaborate frame narrative, framing the flashbacks isn't a challenge, and in fact is a natural outgrowth of our story's narrative structure. Embrace the fog!


*Consider the voyages of Earendil. We can do anything there and it would be lots of fun. Why don't we have the adventures of Beleg and Mablung? We could spend a whole season in pre-Noldor Beleriand following these characters.
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As I have mentioned above, we do still have time to do more with Thingol in this season. I also disagree with the decision to take the focus off of Thingol in this episode, but it is a side affect of the way the season and last season have been structured, another decision I disagreed with. Might I ask what you propose to do regarding this matter?
 
Nicholas Palazzo said:
We currently have two scenes with Thingol in battle in the script outline, which is probably as far as we can push it, given the hosts' desire to keep the focus on the Green Elves. Also, we have a few more episodes where Thingol doesn't have much to do, so we can likely figure out a way to give him more fight scenes.
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Speaking of Thingol, what will we make distinctive about his sword, Aranruth? Thingol prizes it enough that he allows Beleg to take any sword but Aranruth. Is it another sword forged by Telchar? The first the Sindar made with their own hands?
 
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