Session 4.03 - Frame Narrative for Season 4

MithLuin

MithLuin

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The next session will be on Friday November 16th.

For the Season 4 Frame:
  • Who is the teller?
  • What is the plot and scope of the Frame?
Keep in mind that the Frame Character should fit with the theme for the Season.


Also - should we approach this season Episode by Episode, or should the sessions focus on storylines individually rather than determining what happens in each episode?
 
It seems forgiveness is a central theme for this season. The Hosts were interested in tying in Celeborn and Galadriel’s marriage with him forgiving her, for example.
 
So, I haven't thought this all the way through (that's was community threads are for), but I have a frame idea that might work. What if we were to follow someone in Erebor/Dale/ the Woodland Realm shortly after the Battle of 5 Armies? This fits our chronological frame narrative progression and it could hit our main themes: (1) the communities of men, dwarves, and elves must now learn how to live peacefully together (reconciliation), and (2) we can have Balin desiring to re-enter Moria (desire to build/found hidden kingdoms like Gondolin and Nargothrond). We can even have space to bring up dragons (post Smaug and creating Glaurung), and plenty of dwarves running around for the dwarf narrative. It would be interesting to contrast "kicking out" the petty dwarves from their home with the dwarves "coming in" to their home in Erebor.

I see two primary issues with this proposal:

The first is that I wouldn't want to diminish the importance of Bilbo's actions to restore peace/harmony/forgiveness by giving up the Arkenstone. Technically peace is supposed to usher in, and I am proposing that there is still something that needs forgiving. However, with the return of the dwarves to the land and the need for the humans of Dale to rebuild, there could be some invented conflict that pre-dates the peace as the three communities learn to live with one another.

The second is how to connect the frame to the events of the First Age. I do not believe any elf was present for both. Could someone from Rivendell be visiting Thranduil? Otherwise, we would need some loremaster to make connections for us unless we scrap the need for a connection altogether.​

One last tidbit, one which I am not keen on but which might spark other thoughts/discussion. We discussed the difficulty with the Silmarillion story-arcs not necessarily fitting together linearly. Would it be possible to follow three frame characters who interact with one another (potentially a dwarf of Erebor, and elf of the Woodland Realm, and a human from Dale), each of whom can be paired with one of our three main story-arcs? In this case, the three arcs can be told asynchronously. Potentially, we can even pull a "same story told from three different perspectives" approach both in the frame and the Silmarillion narrative, which would allow us to jump forward and backward in the Silmarillion narratives without back-loading the main events. Sounds messy/complicated, but doable.
 
There's something to that. Maybe even Thranduil, Bard, and Dain in their cups, telling tales standing an overnight vigil over Thorin. Whole thing takes place over one night.
 
Do we have to go always forward in Frame too? It's possible that that was mandated, but I don't remember it so.
 
I don’t have anything to say against that idea right now but we have to consider our old idea about Bilbo travelling the Shire. But no really good connections to the season theme comes to mind, so they would have to be created.
 
amysrevenge said:
There's something to that. Maybe even Thranduil, Bard, and Dain in their cups, telling tales standing an overnight vigil over Thorin. Whole thing takes place over one night.
Click to expand...

Just watching the Twitch replay now spending some quality time on the Overarching Themes slide, and I am liking this idea more and more. Forgiveness, working past grievances. Men and Elves and Dwarves. There's Thranduil and Dain and Bard right there.

If the timeline is an issue, it doesn't have to be standing vigil over Thorin (that's just the best place). It could be any time later, while the three are all still alive anyway.

P.S. WOW the ads on Twitch replays are LOUD compared to Corey.
 
Hmm, a re-establishment of Erebor frame could work for this season.

We do want to get a Bilbo-centric frame at *some* point to introduce hobbits more fully, but we could certainly do that for Season 5 with the introduction of Men. We can't come back to Aragorn or Arwen until Season 6 (the Beren/Lúthien season), I don't think, so we need one non-hobbit suggestion, anyway. And Trish *has* suggested a Thranduil/Woodland Realm-based Frame narrative. So, this is good.

As for the frames being chronological - roughly speaking, yes. They should happen in order. Or, at the very least, they should be *able* to happen in order, so that there is no need to explain to the audience that this part of the frame is earlier than this other part of the frame that they've already seen. So...vague, unspecified timeframes are an acceptable alternative, so long as we're not jumping ahead or jumping back.

So, the 'Sam and Ted Sandyman' idea has to be nixed - we can't jump that far ahead in the Frame at this time without causing major confusion later. If we go to the Shire right now, it will be Bilbo we see there.

But we could certainly start in Erebor right after the Battle of Five Armies and wind up in the correct time frame by the end of the Season. For reference:

In the Season 1 Frame, Aragorn is 10 years old.
In the Season 2 Frame, we're in Lothlorien, so it *could* happen over a wide range of times, but we do try to set it right after the Hobbit when Gollum is loose.
In the Season 3 Frame, Aragorn is 16 years old.
In the Season 6 Frame, Aragorn will be 20 years old.

So, if our Season 4 Frame is 'a few years later' from the Battle of Five Armies, we're in good shape. We should probably intentionally put it at 7 or 8 years later, but...that's the general idea.
 
MithLuin said:
Also - should we approach this season Episode by Episode, or should the sessions focus on storylines individually rather than determining what happens in each episode?
Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that we can do storyline by storyline. Or, rather, we could do it storyline by storyline to set the broad strokes, and THEN still have to go through it episode by episode.

Basically start with a 4-5 session extended version of what we did today, followed by episode sessions per usual (possibly 2 episodes per session, since we have the stories worked out already). But not just storyline by storyline and then we're done, or episode outlines as an afterthought. Because ultimately both storylines AND individual episodes need to work on their own.
 
Aaaand, now that I get to the end of the session. I am fully convinced and ready to go to rhetorical battle over a Thranduil/Bard/Dain(/Bilbo on a visit?/Gandalf too maybe?) frame, in the context of remembering Thorin.. Finally and for real forgiving each other over that incident with the dragon. And it even has a Sindar, a Man, and a Dwarf.

(Remind me of the timeline - was Thranduil alive yet for this part of the main story?)
 
amysrevenge said:
Aaaand, now that I get to the end of the session. I am fully convinced and ready to go to rhetorical battle over a Thranduil/Bard/Dain(/Bilbo on a visit?/Gandalf too maybe?) frame, in the context of remembering Thorin.. Finally and for real forgiving each other over that incident with the dragon. And it even has a Sindar, a Man, and a Dwarf.

(Remind me of the timeline - was Thranduil alive yet for this part of the main story?)
Click to expand...
It isn’t explained if he is. His father Oropher, on the other hand, was among the Sindar in Doriath.
 
Guys, this is why I love the community threads! Had an idea, threw it out there, and you are already building upon it and making it better! Reflecting back on Thorin would be good in that we wouldn’t have to create new conflict, we could just have Bard/Dain/Thranduil think back to when times were tense. Maybe a reunion feast to commemorate the battle 10 years later or however long? I do think Balin departing for Moria is worth keeping for the whole Gondolin/Nargothrond parallel.
 
Zephen12 said:
Guys, this is why I love the community threads! Had an idea, threw it out there, and you are already building upon it and making it better! Reflecting back on Thorin would be good in that we wouldn’t have to create new conflict, we could just have Bard/Dain/Thranduil think back to when times were tense. Maybe a reunion feast to commemorate the battle 10 years later or however long? I do think Balin departing for Moria is worth keeping for the whole Gondolin/Nargothrond parallel.
Click to expand...
Balin doesn’t depart for Moria for another 45 years or so after The Hobbit. Maybe any of the three are holding vigil over Thorin’s body?...
 
I am sure we can find a way to work a reference to that into the Frame, without actually having him go yet.

If we did want to have a Shire-centric Frame this season, it would have to focus on the feud between Bilbo and the Sackville-Bagginses. The idea of in any way equating that with the feud of the Noldor and the Sindar is somewhat hilarious, but, well...true enough. All major conflicts between peoples do boil down to individual conflicts between people. And it's just as hard to reconcile over something small as over something historic. So...if we want hobbits...we can get hobbits.
 
MithLuin said:
I am sure we can find a way to work a reference to that into the Frame, without actually having him go yet.

If we did want to have a Shire-centric Frame this season, it would have to focus on the feud between Bilbo and the Sackville-Bagginses. The idea of in any way equating that with the feud of the Noldor and the Sindar is somewhat hilarious, but, well...true enough. All major conflicts between peoples do boil down to individual conflicts between people. And it's just as hard to reconcile over something small as over something historic. So...if we want hobbits...we can get hobbits.
Click to expand...
What hobbit characters will we need this season?
 
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