Session 4.04 & 4.05 - Overarching Storylines

MithLuin

MithLuin

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Our next session is tentatively set for Friday November 30th, with a chance it will be delayed until December.

As we continue our pre-planning for Season 4, it has become clear that we will need to devote some time to planning out some season long arcs before we discuss individual episodes.

Here are the storylines that we will begin discussing next session:

The Sindar reaction to the news of the Kinslaying
Galadriel: How does her relationship with Celeborn play out?
Noldor - internal storylines (Fingolfin, Turgon, Finrod, Fëanoreans)

The Dwarves and the Petty-dwarves
Eöl: What has he been doing since Cuiviénen? His role in Season 4?
Villains: Especially the catch-and-release elf captive program

Save for the end:
If we don't manage to touch on these in the other discussions, we may need to include them in their own separate discussion. They are listed here as a reminder not to forget about them.
Círdan - rebuilding of the Falas?
Green Elves in Ossiriand
Lúthien - what is she doing?​


It is very unlikely that we will get to *all* of those storylines in a single session, so the focus is on the first three for now.
 
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Noldor: I’ve alluded to the tensions between the Noldor in the aftermath of the Ban. The Feanoreans will be angry because they think someone ratted them out to Thingol, and might blame somebody like Turgon. Finrod might be working on establishing relations with the Dwarves, which leads to Nargothrond’s establishment. Turgon likely wants to be at Nevrast, which is closest to Valinor, until he (and Finrod) receive visions from Ulmo to establish underground realms. The distrust between various branches of the Noldor as well as the Sindar could be tension enough leading up to the Dagor Agraleb.
 
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There's basically nothing stopping Sauron from doing so, as long as he's clever enough to avoid suspicion. Finrod and Galadriel probably aren't in the habit of mind-reading everybody they meet just in case they're secretly demon spies. I mean, that's paranoia, right? >.> <.<

People who met Morgoth in Valinor and experienced his blandisments may have their suspicions raised if Sauron starts saying divisive things. But he's probably canny enough to keep his ears open and his mouth inoffensive. He'll benefit from being a bland-looking or charismatic/friendly, but not salient or highly noticeable, "Sinda".

This is a job for Sauron, Thruingwethil, and their more trusted servants, as opposed to the likes of Gothmog and Boldog. So even if Sauron isn't personally there, Morgoth may delegate the spying operations to him.


Other storyline threads that bear discussing at some point:
Sindar moving into Mithrim and Nevrast
Hildorien and the Fall of Men

Let me also say I'm relieved that the hosts are extending the preparation before diving into Episode 1. This season looks like it needs a lot of pre-planning.
 
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I think the overarching storyline for the villains is that they're feeling out their enemies and testing them. Morgoth is dismayed by the Sun and Moon, but rightly confident that no power of the Children of Illuvatar can actually bring him low. He's spying, capturing, and testing different kinds of attacks (Orcs and Dragons, frontal assault and sneaking ambush). He's biding his time, and essentially starting to brainstorm his plan for what will be the Dagor Bragollach.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
I have an cunning plan: how about have Sauron attend the Mereth Aderthad in disguise as a Sinda?
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What I like about this, is that it would be difficult for Sauron to infiltrate a small group of close confederates who all know each other well. But in a bigger gathering, everyone can be lulled into thinking "he's with them" and he can move about with much less chance of being cornered.
 
Exactly.

When my Dad was in college, he had a friend (well, frat brother) who was a classic con-man. He got himself into things by just looking like he belonged. Like, he showed up at a pro football game holding a clipboard, and just walked up and down the sideline like he belonged there and didn't get thrown out.

Being college kids, they were on the lookout for free beer, and thus a great trick to pull was to walk into wedding receptions and just pretend to be with the other side of the family. When you talked to the groom's people, you were with the bride; when you talked the bride's people, you were with the groom. Free food, free drinks, dancing - all around good time. Just needed to make sure you saw the name of the bride and groom before you walked in and dress appropriately.

They finally got caught when the hotel staff started noticing them coming back week after week to the weddings.
 
MithLuin said:
Exactly.

When my Dad was in college, he had a friend (well, frat brother) who was a classic con-man. He got himself into things by just looking like he belonged. Like, he showed up at a pro football game holding a clipboard, and just walked up and down the sideline like he belonged there and didn't get thrown out.

Being college kids, they were on the lookout for free beer, and thus a great trick to pull was to walk into wedding receptions and just pretend to be with the other side of the family. When you talked to the groom's people, you were with the bride; when you talked the bride's people, you were with the groom. Free food, free drinks, dancing - all around good time. Just needed to make sure you saw the name of the bride and groom before you walked in and dress appropriately.

They finally got caught when the hotel staff started noticing them coming back week after week to the weddings.
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Getting into things by just looking like he belonged... that makes me think of Frank Abagnale in Catch Me if you Can, particularly in his first con job pretending to be a French teacher.

Maybe Sauron and Thuringwethil show up as a fake married couple?
 
It occurred to me that we've forgotten one thing: most Ainur (except Morgoth and a few others) can just go unclad. Does Sauron need to disguise himself as a Sinda, or can he just turn invisible and intangible, and spy that way?

This possibility raises the question of why there aren't invisible demons spying on the Noldorin leaders' plans and secrets all the time, though. Many or most demons might have already lost the ability to go completely unclad, like Morgoth did. But... didn't Sauron retain that power until the Downfall of Numenor?

Hmmm.

Is there... some way in which Noldor can just detect demons in disguise or unclad, either Finrod and Galadriel or all Calaquendi? Do these spies have to avoid the Noldor and only hang out near the Sindar and Men? But then how does "Annatar" fool Celebrimbor and all his buddies? Maybe the Noldor can only tell that a Maia is there, where an Elf or thin air should be, so Annatar just claimed to be a good Maia from Valinor? But Olorin canonically disguises himself like an Elf in Valinor, and fools people... did Olorin get away with it only because nobody in Valinor is suspicious or expecting to be stalked by invisible demons?

So... how do we explain away this problem?
 
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Maybe only another Maia can detect somebody like Sauron, and since the only other Maiar are not present (Osse is at the shore and Melian is back in Doriath), Sauron’s allegiance goes undetected. He can’t really go as himself, since the Sindar are somewhat wise to him, or has he not earned the sobrequiet “Gothaur the Cruel”?
 
If Sauron (or Thuringwethil) go disguised as elves, they can interact, rather than simply be passive spies. So, not just overhearing conversations, but planting seeds of discord as they go. "Well, *I* heard..." etc. There is an advantage and strong motivation for them to use that tactic, so I don't think we have to explain about the possibility of invisible spies at this time.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Maybe only another Maia can detect somebody like Sauron, and since the only other Maiar are not present (Osse is at the shore and Melian is back in Doriath), Sauron’s allegiance goes undetected.
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I don't know if allegiance would be "detectable"? Sometimes people "feel foul" in Tolkien ... My first guess was they would know that the "Elf" is not a real Elf, and that there's an invisible presence in the empty space. Guessing it's a demon spy and taking steps to get rid of it would take experience, I guess. But it could be that sense that somebody "feels foul". Your best friend starts saying slightly odd things and, even if the doppelganger is a really good actor, you feel like something is off.

MithLuin said:
If Sauron (or Thuringwethil) go disguised as elves, they can interact, rather than simply be passive spies. So, not just overhearing conversations, but planting seeds of discord as they go. "Well, *I* heard..." etc. There is an advantage and strong motivation for them to use that tactic, so I don't think we have to explain about the possibility of invisible spies at this time.
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You're right, when planting rumors they'll get better results disguised as an Elf. Would they be planting rumors at the Mereth Aderthad yet, or later? How long should it take them to learn about the Kinslaying, rebellion, and burning of the ships?

But before they start planting rumors, is there an advantage to spying while unclad? When trying to learn the battle-plans leading up to the Union of Maedhros or whatever, would they want to try unclad spying? Can an unclad spy follow a traveller to Nargothrond?
 
Playing on the "pretending to be from both sides of a wedding party" angle.

I can see Sauron switching guises between Noldor and Sindar, starting a rumour among Sindar about some Noldor atrocity in Valinor (probably not as bad as what actually happened!), and another rumour among Noldor about Thingol banning the Noldor from Doriath (again not as bad as what's actually coming lol). It could be a fun bit a camera trickery, seeing the costume/style of one "Elf" morph from Sindar to Noldor while nobody's looking.
 
Eol: maybe he has been looking for the metal that Anglachel and Anguirel are made of? And maybe he finds it, but it is a secret he guards jealously and the location is lost with his death.
 
Most likely, he uses meteoric iron for that, and there is probably only enough for the 2 swords. But it is true that he will be extremely secretive about galvorn, whatever that is, so we will want to show that tendency for jealously guarding secrets this season for sure.
 
Okay, I wanted to start getting some of this sorted out for our next session. But maybe it's easier one topic at a time. And so, starting with....

The Sindar reaction to the news of the Kinslaying

I think we are clear on what Thingol's reaction will ultimately be - the Ban. But what is less clear is how he finds out and what role 'rumors' play in all of this. Are there Sindar apologists for the weird silences and gaps in the Noldor story?

There has been talk of Galadriel sharing information with Celeborn that he then chooses not to share with Thingol. Why? Out of loyalty to Galadriel, obviously, but respect for her causing him to keep his mouth shut must mean that she gives him a good reason not to say anything. Do they agree amongst themselves that this knowledge would only wound the relationship between the peoples, and it's best to just bury the (very recent) past, as Fëanor himself is dead? Or is there some other motivation for Celeborn's silence? (Or would people prefer she share only about her mother's death, and not the entire story of the kinslaying?)

It has also been suggested that Sauron and Thuringwethil disguise themselves as elves and attend the Mereth Aderthad. What do they learn there? What distrust/rumors do they sow?

There are at least three social events that we have planned to bring Sindar and Noldor together - the Mereth Aderthad, the wedding of Orodreth and Meril(?) and the marriage of Celeborn and Galadriel. For that last one, we intend for the truth to be out - it takes place post-reveal of the Kinslaying to all the Sindar. The Mereth Aderthad is definitely before - they are officially at peace. So...Orodreth's wedding. What's that like? Does the truth come out before after or during? Any other occasions (besides the Dagor Aglareb) where we plan to see the Sindar and Noldor interacting? Nevrast in particular should be a mixed population.....

There are several Sindar who are going to be quite willing to work with the (non-Fëanorean) Noldor after the reveal of the Kinslaying comes about. We will have to show those decisions, but not all the elves have to have the same reasons for agreeing to work with the Noldor. Círdan, Mablung, Beleg, and Celeborn are all (on some level) pro-Noldor, while also remaining loyal to Thingol (who is decidedly NOT in favor of the Noldor moving forward). What is each of their takes on the 'forgive and forget' issue?

Who among the Noldor is responsible for letting the cat out of the bag? Who is responsible for perpetuating the lie of omission (ie, has *opportunities* to reveal the kinslaying, but...doesn't). Obviously, we want Galadriel to say *something* to both Melian and Celeborn (and Lúthien?), but while she reveals parts of the Darkening of Valinor, she's not the source for Thingol to learn of the Kinslaying. Is this an opportunity to differentiate Angrod and Aegnor? One of them is more bitter and anti-Fëanorean than the other, so....? Is Finrod at all involved in the cover-up? And how important are Sauron's rumors in getting the Sindar to question the Noldor in the first place? In other words...time to put forward ideas on how this plays out, adding details to 'rumors' of who said what.
 
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Thingol/rumours: see below.

Galadriel and Celeborn. I'm on record as desiring Galadriel give Celeborn a FULL version of the story before any other word gets out. We can even maybe try to have it both ways, if we absolutely must, and have Celeborn finally decide to tell Thingol about it, juuuuust after he hears about it anyway from someone else.

I really like the idea we came up with for Sauron in disguise (Thuringwethil too would be fine, that gives an excuse for them to talk to each other so we can see what they are thinking - exposition!). I think it would be great fun if he were to plant rumours that end up being less extreme versions of what actually happened (kinslaying) or will happen (Ban), but get the ball rolling in that direction.

I don't have anything to say at this time about the social events.

Friendly Sindar. I think Celeborn comes to understand the Kinslaying entirely, from both points of view, including both the causes and the effects. Cirdan is willing to take individuals on their own and not lump them in with their kin. Mablung and Beleg reserve their antipathy for the Feanoreans.

Who spills the beans, who doesn't. I'd imagine a furious discussion among the Finarfinians (???), with one of the As demanding the rest stick to Fingolfin's official story (I assume there is one?), Finrod refusing to lie but willing to say nothing, Galadriel telling the others they can trust her judgement (ie. answering by not answering), Orodreth silently watching/brooding, and the other A arguing that Thingol will surely understand that just the Feanoreans are the villains here.
 
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