Session 4.08 - Overarching Storylines, Final (I hope!)

The thread is not closed. I merely asked that we set the topic aside for a time, because there was much repetition, frustration, and talking past one another. I did not forbid anyone from posting; I said that I would not respond at that time. Time has passed; I am sure people can revisit the topic with fresh eyes and calmer minds now.
 
Some time constraints on Orodreth's storyline (which we will hopefully be discussing in the Feb. 15th session).

Captivity. It has been suggested that he be made captive by Sauron. Presumably his captivity does not pre-date the Dagor Aglareb? Are there any reasons to make him captive sooner? Or later?

Release from Captivity. Orodreth is the one who loses the tower of Minas Tirith to Sauron after the Dagor Bragollach. Therefore, he needs to be freed sometime before then so that he has time to recuperate and Finrod decides to put him in charge of that Tower. For the purposes of Silm Film, this means that Orodreth must leave Angband no later than mid Season 5. He could return to the Noldor as soon as the end of Season 4. (There was a suggestion that some escaping captives could warn the Noldor about Glaurung, though they wouldn't have details.)

Marriage to Meril (Sindarin lady we will introduce this Season). We will be showing Aegnor refuse Andreth (in part) because he will not take a wife in time of war. Therefore, we must show his brother/nephew Orodreth marrying in what is perceived by the Noldor as peace time. Parts of the story where this would fit would be after the Mereth Aderthad, or when Fingolfin establishes the Siege of Angband (FA 60-Fa-260). After the appearance of Glaurung, there is a shift in the confident feeling that the Noldor will be able to contain/fight off Morgoth. For this reason, we should probably avoid showing Orodreth's marriage to Meril in Season 5. Another, separate issue is that we want to show the effect of Orodreth's captivity on him. He's likely not going to be visibly aged the way Gwindor was, but he does come back a different person. The contrast between him happy at his wedding, confident and at ease, to whatever he returns as would be a useful way of showing that. And, well...how willing would a 'broken' Orodreth be to enter into marriage? If we want to show Meril as a nurturing person who coaxes him back to (almost) full health, that's one thing, and their wedding could show that he is 'healed' (mostly). But we should definitely consider the impact his captivity would have on his ability to maintain a romantic relationship at all. If they marry before his captivity, they would probably struggle with his changed persona when they are reunited.




Concerning 'red shirts':
A red shirt is a character without a name/story that the audience does not care about in the least. Killing them off evokes no emotional response, no sense of concern for their well-being, and is thus just a blank. Particularly empathetic people are often more upset by gratuitous violence in media, because they *do* care about the random nobody being harmed. But the average viewer doesn't blink. Orcs are really good for being mowed down in droves without anyone feeling bad for them at all. In the original series of Star Trek, an away team would beam down to the planet with the show regulars and some extras (wearing red shirts). The extras would often be killed when they encountered a menace, but of course Kirk, Spock, Bones, and Scotty would survive. Not all minor characters are red shirts. If you let the audience get to know some random person in the background, after awhile, the audience will care about that person, too, [sometimes even if the 'main characters' don't know or care who they are!] Chief O'Brien in Star Trek: The Next Generation started out as a minor background character, but eventually became a main character in his own right. And not all characters with names aren't red shirts; if you haven't given the audience a reason to care, they won't. Hela kills the Warriors Three in Thor: Ragnarok, and the audience barely notices. It doesn't matter if they have a few lines of dialogue and names; the audience simply is not given any reason to care. (Apparently the script writers thought the audience would remember these characters from the two previous Thor films.)

I am in favor of making our Angband captives initially 'a bunch of red shirts' that the audience gets to know through the 'captive in Angband' storyline, thus convincing the audience to root for them and want them to survive/escape. Rog, Penlod's brother, even Ecthelion - these elves haven't been introduced in our story yet. Neither has Angrod's wife. Orodreth is only a very minor character at this point.

Game of Thrones has a Season 2-3 storyline where Arya is travelling with a group of boys to the Wall, but they are made captive and taken to Harrenhal instead. Arya is the only consistent 'main character' in this storyline. Gendry had been introduced previously as a very minor character (whom we get to know better here). And characters like Hot Pie and Jaqen H'ghar are introduced during this storyline. Jaqen H'ghar will become more important later (Seasons 5-6). Hot Pie will never be important to the plot, but the audience is given reasons to remember him and hope he doesn't die. The other boys travelling to the Wall? Red shirts. Some of them have names. Some of them Arya cares about whether or not they die. But the viewer? Yeah, not so much. While I have no desire to copy the storyline here, the structure of having *one* character whom the audience knows, and introducing several other characters whom the audience will get to know in time seems appropriate for the elven side of our 'catch and release' captives of Angband storyline.







Concerning Galadriel's timeline:
The events earlier in her story are more fixed as to when they have to happen. Her wedding to Celeborn is the culmination of her storyline in this season, but there is some flexibility as to when that happens. She is meant to reveal the truth of the Kinslaying to Celeborn *before* Thingol finds out; that means that, from that point, she has chosen Celeborn as her partner. That level of trust/intimacy is likely connected to at least an engagement, if not a wedding. Then, when Thingol does learn the truth, he finds out that Celeborn already knew, and is angry at him. Should that event come before or after the wedding? Should Celeborn be shown choosing to marry Galadriel anyway after the Ban is issued, or are they already married when the Ban goes into effect? It's a different story, but we could tell it any of these ways. Most likely, we will choose the timing that best fits the other themes and storylines we are telling with the Sindar/Noldor in the latter half of the season. There is also an open question of whether or not Celeborn and Galadriel remain in Doriath after their wedding (especially if Thingol is angry with Celeborn), or if they decide to travel a bit to let things simmer down back home. At any rate, we will want to decide what our final 'note' of Galadriel's story should be, and what episode it is in.
 
Orodreth: I kind of disagree that captivity would make Orodreth less likely to be able to be married. I don't really know why it would. He might have something like depression, but still want to marry. He will have children in a later season.

And I want to caution again that he should escape, not be freed, because he shouldn't be under the Spell of Bottomless Dread.

As for redshirting* I think the best course is to minimize the number who ever leave Angband (so, no to Ecthelion), to try to avoid making it seem like the usual fate. Let's make Penlod's brother a character known to the audience, alongside Ecthelion and Glorfindel. The effect would be that although more characters escape and only one is never seen again, the guy who never escapes has a greater individual emotional impact. I also think several extras should never be seen again, but as redshirts they won't have much impact.


Galadriel: Now I remember, if the Kinslaying is revealed after the Dagor Aglareb then it makes sense for them to marry later. Having their marriage be a sign that the Noldor and Sindar can still get along in spite of this setback would be a good reason for them to marry later.


*new word!
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
Besides, why would Morgoth attack them while they're united? Better to attack while they're at each other's throats.
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History shows that Morgoth chooses to attack while they are having parties. This is what he did at Almaren, and at the Darkening of Valinor, and Gondolin. The Mereth Aderthad will be the rare feast/celebration that Morgoth doesn't attack!
 
MithLuin said:
History shows that Morgoth chooses to attack while they are having parties. This is what he did at Almaren, and at the Darkening of Valinor, and Gondolin. The Mereth Aderthad will be the rare feast/celebration that Morgoth doesn't attack!
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True, he does. But they’re unawares during a party. It doesn’t make sense to attack while they’re on good terms with one another, unless he wanted to attack while his opponents are in the same spot, ala the Red Wedding
 
Morgoth does not approve of fun.


Dagor Bragollach can happen during whatever midwinter holiday the Elves have (if they have one).
 
Faelivrin said:
I kind of disagree that captivity would make Orodreth less likely to be able to be married. I don't really know why it would. He might have something like depression, but still want to marry. He will have children in a later season.

And I want to caution again that he should escape, not be freed, because he shouldn't be under the Spell of Bottomless Dread.
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Yes, I agree that regardless of what happens, Orodreth and his wife do have children at a later time. So, they are not estranged or anything like that. What I would find...a little difficult...to show, would be Orodreth resurfacing after his time in Angband, reconnecting with Meril (or meeting her?) and then being like, yep, everything's fine, we're getting married! I would expect a bit of a slower recuperation time in which he would build up to the point of being okay with marriage (and *especially* so if he's not already married). She'd have to get to know the 'new' him and decide if this alters her choice in any way. So, while I don't mind telling this story, I would caution us not to rush through this portion of it.

Gwindor presumably wants to get back to his beloved Finduilas after his escape from Angband...but...she cannot bring her heart to accept 'new' Gwindor. Showing Orodreth and Meril surmount that hurdle and remain (or become) a married couple would be good - but it isn't easy or automatic.

Human soldiers marrying before they go off to war (or during leave while they are temporarily home from war) is apparently not a thing elves do. Apparently, they would give themselves time to work through any issues rather than rush into marriage immediately.

So, once again, it becomes a question of timing. If they marry in peacetime, and then he is captured...they have all the time in the world to work through his issues after his return. If, on the other hand, he is made captive first, we'd need him to escape early enough that he comes back, has time to recuperate, and then build a romance with her/marry.....before Glaurung's appearance in Episode 13. It can be done, but we'd have to pay attention to the pacing to keep it from feeling rushed. There are large time skips in the latter half of the season. I'm not worried about him having time to heal. I'm worried about not giving the audience time to see this play out in a way that makes a wedding make sense.

So, Orodreth time constraints: Wedding some time in Season 4. Captivity sometime in Season 4. Release from captivity sometime before mid-Season 5. And the wedding can't occur while he's in captivity!


The 'did they escape or were they let go?' question is significant, but I don't think there's any reason to prevent Sauron from slipping a SoBD elf into a group of elves that he 'lets' escape, thus disguising his compromised spy among other escapees. And there can be a legitimate jail-break. I don't mind how we develop the story, but I don't think it's a case of *only* the SoBD elves being part of the 'catch-and-release' strategy. Sauron needs to come across as a master mind with a long term plan; the elves should be doing their best to get away.

And I agree that it's important that some elves die in captivity or stay captive indefinitely with no hope of escape. Angband is the Hells of Iron, and it should feel like a one-way entrance, not a revolving door.
 
My point is that Orodreth should not be under the Spell of Bottomless Dread! I accept him being captive only if he is not hollowed out and turned into a slavebot with no free will.

As for marriage, I agree that there would be changes in relationships and personality, and you have a good point about the time we have to show their adjustment and relationship late in the season. What I disagree with is that being captive would somehow cause him to decide he doesn't even want to get married at all. That doesn't make any sense.

Gwindor never stopped loving Finduilas. He was rejected.
 
MithLuin said:
Yes, I agree that regardless of what happens, Orodreth and his wife do have children at a later time. So, they are not estranged or anything like that. What I would find...a little difficult...to show, would be Orodreth resurfacing after his time in Angband, reconnecting with Meril (or meeting her?) and then being like, yep, everything's fine, we're getting married! I would expect a bit of a slower recuperation time in which he would build up to the point of being okay with marriage (and *especially* so if he's not already married). She'd have to get to know the 'new' him and decide if this alters her choice in any way. So, while I don't mind telling this story, I would caution us not to rush through this portion of it.

Gwindor presumably wants to get back to his beloved Finduilas after his escape from Angband...but...she cannot bring her heart to accept 'new' Gwindor. Showing Orodreth and Meril surmount that hurdle and remain (or become) a married couple would be good - but it isn't easy or automatic.

Human soldiers marrying before they go off to war (or during leave while they are temporarily home from war) is apparently not a thing elves do. Apparently, they would give themselves time to work through any issues rather than rush into marriage immediately.

So, once again, it becomes a question of timing. If they marry in peacetime, and then he is captured...they have all the time in the world to work through his issues after his return. If, on the other hand, he is made captive first, we'd need him to escape early enough that he comes back, has time to recuperate, and then build a romance with her/marry.....before Glaurung's appearance in Episode 13. It can be done, but we'd have to pay attention to the pacing to keep it from feeling rushed. There are large time skips in the latter half of the season. I'm not worried about him having time to heal. I'm worried about not giving the audience time to see this play out in a way that makes a wedding make sense.

So, Orodreth time constraints: Wedding some time in Season 4. Captivity sometime in Season 4. Release from captivity sometime before mid-Season 5. And the wedding can't occur while he's in captivity!


The 'did they escape or were they let go?' question is significant, but I don't think there's any reason to prevent Sauron from slipping a SoBD elf into a group of elves that he 'lets' escape, thus disguising his compromised spy among other escapees. And there can be a legitimate jail-break. I don't mind how we develop the story, but I don't think it's a case of *only* the SoBD elves being part of the 'catch-and-release' strategy. Sauron needs to come across as a master mind with a long term plan; the elves should be doing their best to get away.

And I agree that it's important that some elves die in captivity or stay captive indefinitely with no hope of escape. Angband is the Hells of Iron, and it should feel like a one-way entrance, not a revolving door.
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Well, the published Silmarillion has Elves who escape for real, mentioned in the chapter “Of the Ruin of Beleriand”, but the SoBD Elves have been around for a while at that point, and they’re turned away. That might be part of Sauron’s operation, to make the Elves confuse friend from foe.
 
Surely the Orodreth recovering from captivity, can be answered by just not having him captured.

The reason I am so against Orodreth being captured, is because I think it's important to show Elves can be weak. There does not have to be something external reason for this. I think it's important we have an Elvish King, who struggles with the responsibility and the pressure. He is easily led and he is the one exception in Finwe's line. The rest are all very headstrong and like to do things as they see fit. By making Orodreth's character a result of torture, we are oversimplifying him in my opinion. When the decision has been made firmly, I will accept it, but whilst it is still up for discussion I am argue strongly against it.
 
Ange1e4e5 said:
New costume for Morgoth while among men: green fur and red eyes.;)
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I thought the host had decided to skip Hildorien? I personally think this is a good idea and we should only hear the legends of what Men think happened. Nothing should ever be confirmed on screen.
 
cellardur said:
I thought the host had decided to skip Hildorien? I personally think this is a good idea and we should only hear the legends of what Men think happened. Nothing should ever be confirmed on screen.
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It was a joke. I was thinking of this guy.
how-the-grinch-stole-christmas-6.jpg
 
Cellardur, we will definitely raise your concerns in the session this Friday (when we hope to return to the topic of captive elves), and we will see what the Hosts have to say. The decision is not yet final, but Orodreth's name is definitely on the table.

As for Hildorien, nothing is being shown on screen this Season (when it's happening), but something may be shown in flashback after Men enter the story. Thus, we are at least making sure we work up what Morgoth is up to so that none of the Villain's actions this season contradict what we will want them to have done in Hildorien. We came up with a fairly involved plotline for the fall of Men, so we'll see what the Hosts make of that!
 
MithLuin said:
Cellardur, we will definitely raise your concerns in the session this Friday (when we hope to return to the topic of captive elves), and we will see what the Hosts have to say. The decision is not yet final, but Orodreth's name is definitely on the table.

As for Hildorien, nothing is being shown on screen this Season (when it's happening), but something may be shown in flashback after Men enter the story. Thus, we are at least making sure we work up what Morgoth is up to so that none of the Villain's actions this season contradict what we will want them to have done in Hildorien. We came up with a fairly involved plotline for the fall of Men, so we'll see what the Hosts make of that!
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Ah well, I was joking around with Morgoth disguised as the Grinch. I’d like to have Fankil around for at least a scene or two, maybe a flashback, but that’s just me.
 
I'm also fine with Orodreth never being captured. But I have always found his behavior ... not just weak, but foolish or even stupid. He goes farther than Turgon, IMO, by not even hiding from Morgoth. And Turgon's pride doesn't seem to fit as well with Orodreth. I would want some way to depict him that doesn't make him look stupid.

@cellardur , what's your concept of Orodreth as a character? I agree that he's weak and not very assertive. But I'm wondering how you conceptualize his decision-making around taking Turin's advice over Ulmo's.

Edit: I ask that in curiosity and hope that you'll have ideas that'd be helpful. Not intended to be hostile.



And in regard to Enemy storylines and Hildorien, I propose this:

Ep 2 or 3: Morgoth leaves to visit Hildorien. He immediately returns because scaring the crap out of Men doesn't help his goal of corrupting them.

Ep 3: He immediately sends "Annatar".

Eps 3-4: Sauron stays in Hildorien while Morgoth handles the spies. Learning that they've scheduled Mereth Aderthad, he calls Sauron back.

Eps 5-6: Sauron goes to Mereth Aderthad and oversees the spying for a while, briefly visiting Hildorien once or twice more as "Annatar".

Ep 6 or 7: Morgoth visits Hildorien with the golden armor and Silmarils, while causing a solar eclipse, or putting a really big dark cloud over the Sun. ('Eclipse' is seen from Beleriand.) Then he leaves them to build a temple, and sends Fankil to watch them.

Ep 8: Morgoth starts Dagor Aglareb at some point after his return.
 
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My one concern with this timeline is that there is a lot of quick back and forth. Since we aren't actually showing what's happening in Hildorien, we have to rely on Morgoth's mysterious absence, an eclipse, and a few cryptic conversations with Sauron to get the point across. If Morgoth leaves and and returns within the same episode that probably doesn't build the mystery. But we might be able to make it work.

It's definitely important that Morgoth find Men prior to the Dagor Aglareb (Episode 8), and I would prefer that to be a very early season point. But what is the latest that Men can Fall? Ie, when *must* the Eclipse happen by?
 
MithLuin said:
My one concern with this timeline is that there is a lot of quick back and forth. Since we aren't actually showing what's happening in Hildorien, we have to rely on Morgoth's mysterious absence, an eclipse, and a few cryptic conversations with Sauron to get the point across. If Morgoth leaves and and returns within the same episode that probably doesn't build the mystery. But we might be able to make it work.

It's definitely important that Morgoth find Men prior to the Dagor Aglareb (Episode 8), and I would prefer that to be a very early season point. But what is the latest that Men can Fall? Ie, when *must* the Eclipse happen by?
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Depends on how long it takes to walk from Hildorien to Beleriand. Beor is at least familiar with a darkness that his kin fled from.
 
Can we even have an Elf that is inherently weak, as in juuuust barely above debilitatingly weak at some times, without some external factor weakening them artificially?
 
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