Session 4.08 - Overarching Storylines, Final (I hope!)

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Is there any particular reason why the Hosts are so reluctant to introduce new characters?
The Silmarillion is already a 'cast of thousands' with no central characters who will follow through the entire project. Well, Sauron, but I mean...we're not telling this entire story from his perspective!

So, while we can invent characters, we do have a goal of not introducing a new minor character every time we have a new role to fill. If we can have a character we will use in a role later fill a role now, that is preferred; one character, multiple roles, helps the audience keep track better.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
The Silmarillion is already a 'cast of thousands' with no central characters who will follow through the entire project. Well, Sauron, but I mean...we're not telling this entire story from his perspective!

So, while we can invent characters, we do have a goal of not introducing a new minor character every time we have a new role to fill. If we can have a character we will use in a role later fill a role now, that is preferred; one character, multiple roles, helps the audience keep track better.
I think there is a problem with delegating a role to a character we know if it compromises their actions down the line, if my post about Sansa Stark is any indication.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
You are saying that Rian, a woman who abandons her new born baby to go lay down and die somewhere, is in a state of mind to be making good choices about the care of her child? Because, ummmm....moms don't just abandon their newborns like that. At all. They might *want* to when the baby won't stop screaming, but only an extremely desperate (or in this case, extremely depressed) mother would do that. Or possibly someone who never wanted to be a mom in the first place.

If anything, the treachery would occur in Season 4 or 5, resulting in Annael living apart from the other elves in Dor-lomin before the Men even arrive there. Enough time has passed that a) Sauron and Thuringwethil have abandoned their spy, because, while still alive, he's no more use to them, and b) the Men of the area may very well be unfamiliar with Annael's history. The elves might warn them about the weird exile who lives in caves, but it's not like any of this will be recent/current events.

So, Annael is actually a trustworthy, good elf (even if maybe he doesn't fully trust himself anywhere near Morgoth's forces or other elven settlements). If he finds Rian wandering in the wild and helps care for her and her baby, she might very well decide to leave Tuor with him without questioning Annael about his history. Annael could even be reluctant, like, no, really, I'm not dad material, but Rian insists and leaves anyway. It's not like Tuor gets a vote here; he's an abandoned orphan.

There is no reason for Annael to be or ever have been an elf of Doriath. He's going to be in the north when he's made captive, so he can be a Sinda settling in Nevrast or Hithlum.

While I agree that a captive elf could probably not just walk through the Girdle into Doriath in the middle of the woods, that is not to say that the wardens couldn't let him in. Outsiders *do* visit Doriath - the children of Finarfin, dwarves, etc. Melian lets them all in. If the released captive was originally an elf of Doriath (as Oropher is), then they could decide to...let him back in. They might question him first, but it's not like he can't *possibly* go there.
I have a suggestion: Of the Elves imprisoned at Tol-en-Gaurhoth, how about we split these in two, with some led by Oropher going to Doriath and others, led by another Elf (Gimli?) to Nargothrond. We need at least some of that lot to return to Nargothrond, since they're responsible for ousting Celegorm and Curufin from Nargothrond, which leads to Huan changing his allegiance from Celegorm to Beren and Luthien.
 

cellardur

Active Member
Yeah, Annael and Glorfindel don't make much sense..
Yes Glorfindel being captured is just going to undermine everyone else. I am a two episodes behind, but will listen to episode 4.07 in a few minutes.

Glorfindel is a fantastic elf.
He gets captured and returns a fantastic elf. The torture and torment has not effected him at all.
He will just make other elves look worse, though this should not be the case, for being broken by Morgoth when Glorfindel has no side effects.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I will repeat that the only lord of Gondolin who will be part of the catch and release program will be Rog. Not Glorfindel. Glorfindel is not going to be made captive. And Annael will not be under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. That will be Eldalote.

I don't think it is particularly helpful for me to try to clarify everything from the session before people have even gotten a chance to listen to it.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
I will repeat that the only lord of Gondolin who will be part of the catch and release program will be Rog. Not Glorfindel. Glorfindel is not going to be made captive. And Annael will not be under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. That will be Eldalote.

I don't think it is particularly helpful for me to try to clarify everything from the session before people have even gotten a chance to listen to it.
I think that the problem is that the line about suggesting Glorfindel as a captive of Angband was taken seriously. I know I did until I heard that it was meant as a joke.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Re: The problem of Sansa Stark

For those who are not familiar with Game of Thrones, Sansa Stark was a young girl separated from her family and surrounded by political enemies for books 2-4, and yet somehow, she managed to get through that situation nearly unscathed. Something about her drew protectors to her, so she was shielded from some of the worst potential side effects of what could happen to her. In other words, by the time you reach the end of the 5th book, she's never been raped (just stripped half-naked and beaten one time and married off against her will to a husband who was honorable enough not to touch her). Characters joke that there's no way a woman in her situation can 'still be a maid,' but...the readers know she is.

In the TV show, they tell Sansa's story more or less how it was written. The books end with her in the Vale under the dubious protection of Littlefinger. The TV show gets to that point...and then Littlefinger marries her off to the Boltons.

In the books, Ramsey Bolton (Roose Bolton's naturalized bastard son and quite possibly the worst person in a cast containing many horrible people and a few other murderous psychopaths) does indeed marry 'Arya Stark' (Jeyne Poole being passed off as Arya Stark), and the other characters react as if one of the Stark girls is in Winterfell.

So, clearly, the TV show decided to replace Jeyne Poole (Sansa's very minor character friend from 5 seasons ago) with Sansa herself. Since this role required an innocent young woman to be raped and brutalized by a particularly vicious man, there was an understandable up-in-arms reaction from the fans who rightly pointed out that book!Sansa had never been raped or used in this manner. The scene is in the book...it just happened to someone else, not Sansa.

Here's the thing, though....the books obviously have to be setting things up, and getting Sansa to the North (eventually) is something that has to happen. Granted, they could have done the whole 'Arya' ruse, and then, just kidding! and then moved on to the plotline which would bring Sansa and the knights of the Vale to Winterfell by some other means. Certainly, the TV show *could* have done that. The TV show is also trying to end the story in eight seasons. They really had to accelerate the plot, and that did mean doing disservice to certain characters and plotlines (such as the Sand Snakes). Season 6 has some very uneven writing (vigorously anti-magic Ser Davos' surprising suggestion to attempt to resurrect Jon Snow, a man he barely knows, immediately after the death of King Stannis, a man he's served his whole life -- what??), and it's clear they've gone 'off script' and run out of book material to use.

The question to ask is...what is the purpose of tormenting Jeyne Poole in this way? The answer is that it outrages everyone because they think that the Boltons have taken a Stark girl hostage. GRRM could play coy with his story - write about tormenting/raping a 'fake' Stark girl, while the actual Stark girls remained unmolested. But...was there any need for a fake Stark girl in Winterfell? And all the outrage over Sansa being treated that way only proves the point that no one cared about poor little Jeyne Poole who had no choice in the matter and was forced to impersonate Arya and go through with an awful marriage to the worst man in the world. CLEARLY, the audience cared more about this happening to Sansa than to some random nobody. It's not fair that she escapes Joffrey only to fall into Ramsey Bolton's clutches! Well, true, but since when is anything in this story or world remotely fair? The story is almost entirely about the worst possible thing happening to almost everyone. People can be upset, but have they seen this show?

So, while I realize my opinion is unpopular, I do assert that the show's writers absolutely made the right choice to use Sansa Stark in the role of 'Jeyne Poole pretending to be Arya Stark.' And not showing the wedding night on screen was one of the few times Game of Thrones cameras have shown *any* discretion; I for one appreciated that. By not showing her nudity, it made the scene entirely about her fear and pain. They also did not make the violence done to her meaningless, but used it as part of her story and the end of any trust she might have had for Littlefinger. It informed her decisions moving forward - her acceptance of Brienne, being the person to put an end to Ramsay, her reluctance to call on the knights of the Vale, her arguments with Jon. In other words, they integrated Sansa's time as 'Lady Bolton' into the story and made sense of it with her story. It remains to be seen how it will impact the final season or the end of Sansa's story (perhaps she'll never marry again?), but it was not in and of itself a bad choice on the part of the show's writers. Unpopular, sure, but not bad.

Now the superfluous use of the Sand Snakes, on the other hand.....




All that being said, we're not writing Game of Thrones. We're not going for shock value or gross-out or any of that. We're not trying to prove how 'gritty' and 'realistic' our fantasy world is by making it as vulgar as possible. We aren't creating a society where fighting men travel around and think they can do as they like because no one is there to stop them. Even the least honorable elves have a lot more honor than your average character in Game of Thrones. AND...our source material is already as written as it's going to be. It's not like we need to invent an ending for the Silmarillion - we know who lives, who dies, and who tells the story!

Subtracting out minor characters is not uncommon in adaptations. One can either give their lines/roles to more important characters, or replace them with a mere device to accomplish the plot that they are meant to be responsible for. And so, while we might get upset that Radagast did not appear in Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings, his role in the story is covered by the moth that Gandalf uses to communicate with the eagles. Frodo does not have his dreams in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Gandalf does tell Pippin of the 'far green country under a swift sunrise.' The minor characters are subtracted, but not everything from their stories are lost.

What we are faced with here is something different. We are told this happens, in the 'plot summary' version of the Quenta Silmarillion. We are not told who it happens to. Some elves are made captive. Some escape. Some are compromised by Morgoth and then let go. Eventually, the Elves learn not to trust former captives, because they *might* be compromised. So...we can either make this happen to a named character whose story it 'fits' into, or we can invent a character for this to happen to. There is no minor character to replace; it's an unnamed character's role in the first place.
 
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Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Re: The problem of Sansa Stark

For those who are not familiar with Game of Thrones, Sansa Stark was a young girl separated from her family and surrounded by political enemies for books 2-4, and yet somehow, she managed to get through that situation nearly unscathed. Something about her drew protectors to her, so she was shielded from some of the worst potential side effects of what could happen to her. In other words, by the time you reach the end of the 5th book, she's never been raped (just stripped half-naked and beaten one time and married off against her will to a husband who was honorable enough not to touch her). Characters joke that there's no way a woman in her situation can 'still be a maid,' but...the readers know she is.

In the films, they tell Sansa's story more or less how it was written. The books end with her in the Vale under the dubious protection of Littlefinger. The TV show gets to that point...and then Littlefinger marries her off to the Boltons.

In the books, Ramsey Bolton (Roose Bolton's naturalized bastard son and quite possibly the worst person in a cast containing many horrible people and a few other psychopaths) does indeed marry 'Arya Stark' (Jeyne Poole being passed off as Arya Stark), and the other characters react as if one of the Stark girls is in Winterfell.

So, clearly, the TV show decided to replace Jeyne Poole (Sansa's very minor character friend from 5 seasons ago) with Sansa herself. Since this role required an innocent young woman to be raped and brutalized by a particularly vicious man, there was an understandable up-in-arms reaction from the fans who rightly pointed out that book!Sansa had never been raped or used in this manner. The scene is in the book...it just happened to someone else, not Sansa.

Here's the thing, though....the books obviously have to be setting things up, and getting Sansa to the North (eventually) is something that has to happen. Granted, they could have done the whole 'Arya' ruse, and then, just kidding! and then moved on to the plotline which would bring Sansa and the knights of the Vale to Winterfell by some other means. Certainly, the TV show *could* have done that. The TV show is also trying to end the story in eight seasons. They really had to accelerate the plot, and that did mean doing disservice to certain characters and plotlines (such as the Sand Snakes). Season 6 has some very uneven writing (vigorously anti-magic Ser Davos' surprising suggestion to attempt to resurrect Jon Snow, a man he barely knows, immediately after the death of King Stannis, a man he's served his whole life -- what??), and it's clear they've gone 'off script' and run out of book material to use.

The question to ask is...what is the purpose of tormenting Jeyne Poole in this way? The answer is that it outrages everyone because they think that the Boltons have taken a Stark girl hostage. GRRM could play coy with his story - write about tormenting/raping a 'fake' Stark girl, while the actual Stark girls remained unmolested. But...was there any need for a fake Stark girl in Winterfell? And all the outrage over Sansa being treated that way only proves the point that no one cared about poor little Jeyne Poole who had no choice in the matter and was forced to impersonate Arya and go through with an awful marriage to the worst man in the world. CLEARLY, the audience cared more about this happening to Sansa than to some random nobody. It's not fair that she escapes Joffrey only to fall into Ramsey Bolton's clutches! Well, true, but since when is anything in this story or world remotely fair? The story is almost entirely about the worst possible thing happening to almost everyone. People can be upset, but have they seen this show?

So, while I realize my opinion is unpopular, I do assert that the show's writers absolutely made the right choice to use Sansa Stark in the role of 'Jeyne Poole pretending to be Arya Stark.' And not showing the wedding night on screen was one of the few times Game of Thrones cameras have shown *any* discretion; I for one appreciated that. By not showing her nudity, it made the scene entirely about her fear and pain. They also did not make the violence done to her meaningless, but used it as part of her story and the end of any trust she might have had for Littlefinger. It informed her decisions moving forward - her acceptance of Brienne, being the person to put an end to Ramsay, her reluctance to call on the knights of the Vale, her arguments with Jon. In other words, they integrated Sansa's time as 'Lady Bolton' into the story and made sense of it with her story. It remains to be seen how it will impact the final season or the end of Sansa's story (perhaps she'll never marry again?), but it was not in and of itself a bad choice on the part of the show's writers. Unpopular, sure, but not bad.

Now the superfluous use of the Sand Snakes, on the other hand.....




All that being said, we're not writing Game of Thrones. We're not going for shock value or gross-out or any of that. We're not trying to prove how 'gritty' and 'realistic' our fantasy world is by making it as vulgar as possible. We aren't creating a society where fighting men travel around and think they can do as they like because no one is there to stop them. Even the least honorable elves have a lot more honor than your average character in Game of Thrones. AND...our source material is already as written as it's going to be. It's not like we need to invent an ending for the Silmarillion - we know who lives, who dies, and who tells the story!

Subtracting out minor characters is not uncommon in adaptations. One can either give their lines/roles to more important characters, or replace them with a mere device to accomplish the plot that they are meant to be responsible for. And so, while we might get upset that Radagast did not appear in Peter Jackson's The Lord of the Rings, his role in the story is covered by the moth that Gandalf uses to communicate with the eagles. Frodo does not have his dreams in the House of Tom Bombadil, but Gandalf does tell Pippin of the 'far green country under a swift sunrise.' The minor characters are subtracted, but not everything from their stories are lost.

What we are faced with here is something different. We are told this happens, in the 'plot summary' version of the Quenta Silmarillion. We are not told who it happens to. Some elves are made captive. Some escape. Some are compromised by Morgoth and then let go. Eventually, the Elves learn not to trust former captives, because they *might* be compromised. So...we can either make this happen to a named character whose story it 'fits' into, or we can invent a character for this to happen to. There is no minor character to replace; it's an unnamed character's role in the first place.
Very good points. I agree that we’re not writing Game of Thrones and we shouldn’t try to be writing Game of Thrones, I’m just saying that we should be careful about how we divvy up character roles and how events will affect a character’s role and actions down the line.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yes, we should absolutely consider how decisions made now impact characters down the line. It's very important to be setting up our later stories as we go!


And now...Annael

I recognize that this wasn't a popular suggestion. But it was my suggestion, so let me at least explain why I tossed his name in the ring.

The Hosts perused our list of 'suggested' captive elves, and dismissed the ones they thought would not work in the story. So, Ecthelion was dismissed as being too important for what he needs to do in Gondolin, and Penlod's invented brother was dismissed for being an invented relation of a minor and obscure character. Orodreth was dismissed because the only role left for him at that point would have been 'damaged unwitting spy' and that did not fit with his later role as lord of Minas Tirith.

Corey Olsen requested the names of minor character Sindar elves who could be alive at this time, potentially made captive, and then play a role later in the story. Annael seemed a good elf to consider because his only role in the story is the fostering of Tuor, but of course he could have a back story, and we had already discussed introducing him at the end of season 3 (the role of the messenger was deleted, so we ended up not using him, but he was suggested to be one of Círdan's people at this point). Galdor of the Havens has already been introduced, so he too is around right now.

The snippet we are trying to recreate talks about captive elves escaping, and then coming back and being turned away because the Elves are fearful that they are spies. Why would they fear that? Clearly...they've met some spies...who used to be captives...and are now turned away from elven society.

Annael lives in a cave in Hithlum, separate from the other elves, with only his small group of followers. Why is that? Could there be a reason he's so out on his own there? This is a very different situation from Orodreth, Lord of Minas Tirith and later heir to Nargothrond!

And that's what made him a good suggestion for the unwitting spy role. Obviously, he can't be under the Spell of Bottomless Dread. He can't be Morgoth's servant. But in the role of someone feeding information to Sauron (or Thuringwethil) while under some sort of hypnosis....this is a temporary enough form of compromise that we needn't show him broken....just mistrusted and shunned once his unwilling treachery is brought to light.

This will all be old news long before Tuor comes along. Thuringwethil will be dead. Annael's role as compromised spy is long in the past before he meets Rían. And so, Annael's fostering of Tuor will show the audience that Annael is not a 'fallen' or 'bad' elf, and that what happened to him as a result of his captivity was neither his fault nor his choice and he can go on to do good things. He's not 'ruined'. I don't think that's a bad story arc. Most of the time, someone who does something treacherous has to die sacrificially to prove their loyalty. This is a quieter path to redemption, but given the long time frame between the treachery and the redemption, he will have seemed to have lived out his penance.

What will happen to Annael if we use him in this role is that he will be used by the villains, but will not himself be a villain nor a willing participant in treachery. This will be not unlike Saruman using Radagast as his dupe, but with more mental control over the victim.
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Corey Olsen commented on the catch-and-release elf program at the beginning of today's session. (Oh, and for those who aren't familiar with the term catch-and-release, it refers to fishing where you catch the fish, but then toss it back into the water.)

He confirmed that he really does like the idea of using this for Annael's backstory, and that Ange1e4e5's suggestion of Curufin's wife for the captive Noldo slave was an interesting one, so he's happy with that choice as well.

So, the named elves who will be made captive are: Rog, Eldalotë (Edhellos), Annael, and Curufin's wife (Celebrimbor's mother). All four of these will be made captive this season.

The results are:
Eldalotë will be captured between the Mereth Aderthad and the Dagor Aglareb. She's resistant to Sauron's attempts to daunt/question her, so Morgoth takes her and destroys her (Spell of Bottomless Dread). She is left for the Noldor to find, and her will is no longer her own. She is used as a trojan horse to leave the elves defenseless when orcs attack from the north/coast. She survives, but remains broken until the end of her days (with perhaps moments of lucidity/regret and a later chance to do something useful like sound an alarm). She will likely die in the Dagor Bragollach?

Rog of the Host of Fingolfin is made captive and (eventually) escapes of his own free will. He may have experienced questioning/torture/horrors, but he is unbroken by his experience. I think a brief captivity is intended? He returns to Hithlum and is accepted back into Fingolfin/Fingon's Host. His experience is not unlike Maedhros'.

Annael, a Sinda of Círdan's following (ie, not currently of Doriath), is made captive after the Mereth Aderthad. Sauron questions/daunts him so that his mind is confused. He is able to put him into a 'hypnosis' state so that he will answer questions and take actions as commanded for as long as the hypnosis lasts...with no memory of those actions after the fact. Annael 'escapes' from Angband and returns to Mithrim. He acts as a spy when visited by Thuringwethil, giving away information he does not wish to. When he is caught in the aftermath of the Dagor Aglareb, he vehemently denies his crime....until evidence is presented that it was indeed him who passed information to the enemy (perhaps someone saw him meeting with Thuringwethil). Chagrined and deeply troubled by this news, Annael exiles himself so that he can never again be used to betray elves (and the other elves avoid him in the future). Thuringwethil either loses track of him or abandons him after his discovery as he is of no more use to her as a spy. Eventually, he gathers a small following in a cave in Hithlum and is a hermit turned guerrilla fighter at the time of the invasion of the Easterlings. While there is the implication that a *direct* meeting with Sauron could compromise him again, he is by no means compromised after his time as a spy during the Dagor Aglareb. Annael will serve as a good and wise foster father for Tuor. Annael will also be the reason why any escaped captives (such as Gwindor) will later be viewed with suspicion.

Curufin's wife (name?) will have come with them into exile. She, like her father-in-law, husband, and son, is an avid and skilled craftsman. When she is made captive, she is forced into slave labor, and becomes the first of the captive Noldor working in Angband's mines and forges. Gwindor will follow in her footsteps, though unlike him, she will *never* escape. Presumably, she will die in the War of Wrath? This will impact Celebrimbor's later alliance/feud with Annatar, whom he does not recognize as the being responsible for his mother's imprisonment (but Sauron sure does know whose kid he is).
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
Faelivrin, I know you were away from home and didn't have a chance to participate in the session. I am also away this weekend. I hope you eventually have a chance to listen to the session to see how the choices were arrived at.
Honestly, it's becoming increasingly difficult to listen to the podcasts. Just about every podcast the Hosts repeat that their goal is to make the writers miserable, and "make purists scream." to quote Dave 2-3 podcasts ago, and they think this is hilarious. I had tried once to ask the hosts "Please don't make the writers miserable. Please be nice to us." and they kept on laughing. I don't know if they are deliberately trying to make us miserable for fun, or if they think they're only telling a "joke," but it does make me miserable. I was bullied every single schoolday for all of my childhood, and these callous jokes about how much fun it is to bully people have been giving me painful flashbacks. Bullying is not a joking matter. Thousands or millions of bullied children kill themselves every year because they can't bear to live any longer, and I almost became another statistic too. More than once. I am having a very hard time listening to callous jokes about something so hideous, and feeling like the target of mockery and contempt. :( So if you still wonder why I feel like the Execs have an antagonistic/hostile relationship with the writers, it's because they keep saying they do, and laughing about it. Merely thinking about it is so painful that I've been avoiding this forum for a whole week.

In the meantime, I will merely point out that Annael will *not* be under the Spell of Bottomless Dread, nor will he be a slave to Morgoth's will. What was proposed was more falling under hypnosis and spilling secrets *while in the presence of the villains*, thus serving as an unwitting spy.
Annael, a Sinda of Círdan's following (ie, not currently of Doriath), is made captive after the Mereth Aderthad. Sauron questions/daunts him so that his mind is confused. He is able to put him into a 'hypnosis' state so that he will answer questions and take actions as commanded for as long as the hypnosis lasts...with no memory of those actions after the fact. Annael 'escapes' from Angband and returns to Mithrim. He acts as a spy when visited by Thuringwethil, giving away information he does not wish to.
Thank you for summarizing the plan. Unfortunately I'm not following how this works with Annael. Are you saying that Thuringwethil travels to Mithrim to where Annael lives, and nobody (including Annael) notices her? I can't recall if she shapeshifts into an Elf form as easily as Sauron. If Annael is travelling to Angband or Tol-in-Gaurhoth to report to Sauron then he's either mind-controlled remotely (at all times?), or he is a willing traitor like Maeglin. That isn't any better, even if he repents later. Or if they can hypnotize him from hundreds of miles away and force him to do whatever they want, then there's no reason Morgoth and Sauron can't still mind-control him from Angband while he's raising Tuor.

We could use Galathil instead, without causing a plot hole. He isn't going to be entrusted with a plot-critical character's childhood.

There's no need to "explain" why Annael lives in the wood with a small company of Elves. Lots of Sindar live in the woods as nomads "with no settled abode" and their situation is pretty hard after the Easterlings take over Hithlum. Of course they're living in hiding, and most of their people are dead or fled away south. On the other hand there is a need for him to have a company of people.

He will start as a loner/outcast and gradually gather people. I know Annael is a minor character and doesn't have much of a story arc, but we can give him one.
Only if we're allowed to include other Elf characters when the time comes. Which we probably won't.

And there is still need for him to be part of a population of Mithrim Sindar, not just one guy who for some reason crossed the mountains from the Falas into Mithrim, instead of wandering the coast or empty Nevrast. He won't have a chance to gather people if he's the only Grey-elf in Mithrim.



Which canon characters are being eliminated by making them never return from Angband? Only Curufin's wife, or are the Hosts going to decide one day to get rid of somebody else too?

Anyway, I would prefer using Caranthir's wife, or Maglor's wife, instead of Curufin's, since Tolkien did say that Curufin's wife stayed in Valinor. We might as well explain why Maglor or Caranthir never had kids. Sauron will of course know who Celebrimbor is anyway -- he won't hide his ancestry, he puts the sign of Feanor on the Doors of Durin.


@Ange1e4e5 my copy of the Silmarillion (2n ed.?) has the capturing start after the Dagor Aglareb.
 
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Haerangil

Well-Known Member
Yeah, the podcasts ARE often frustrating .Lot's of inside jokes and Trish lambert cackling and trish and corey talking about everything but things important for silmfilm.I'm afraid i am with Faelivrin in this...
i mean , this project is becoming less and less motivating to me... and we already ARE just the tiny temnant of many more people who were involved when silmfilm first started... so obviously a lot of peoplebalready have lost interest.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
Yeah, the podcasts ARE often frustrating .Lot's of inside jokes and Trish lambert cackling and trish and corey talking about everything but things important for silmfilm.I'm afraid i am with Faelivrin in this...
i mean , this project is becoming less and less motivating to me... and we already ARE just the tiny temnant of many more people who were involved when silmfilm first started... so obviously a lot of peoplebalready have lost interest.
One frustration of mine is that they can be long-winded; last week, they spent almost all the session on the catch and release program and barely glossed over the other villain storylines. My enthusiasm/motivation hasn’t really dimmed, I’m just biding my time until we can reach Gondolin. I just hope that some of my ideas can be used, like Aegnor at Andreth’s death.
 
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Nicholas Palazzo

Well-Known Member
Yeah, the podcasts ARE often frustrating .Lot's of inside jokes and Trish lambert cackling and trish and corey talking about everything but things important for silmfilm.I'm afraid i am with Faelivrin in this...
i mean , this project is becoming less and less motivating to me... and we already ARE just the tiny temnant of many more people who were involved when silmfilm first started... so obviously a lot of peoplebalready have lost interest.
While the boards are not quite as active as they have been in the past, there are still quite a few people still following the project, if the amount of people listening live is any indication. Most of the folks who have been doing so since the beginning, myself included, still do so. Even better, I see new posters here every week or two. I think that once the actual episodes get underway, we will see more activity here. If it turns out that there is anyone involved who feels this project isn't their bag, that is unfortunate and we'll miss you.
 

Ange1e4e5

Well-Known Member
For Annael, perhaps he only interacts with Thurwingwethil and when she is killed during Beren and Luthien, the link is broken?
 

MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
Yeah, I think the plan is for Sauron to do something to Annael, and then for Thuringwethil to be the one who visits him to collect information. Obviously we haven't planned all of the details yet, but solitary night meetings were intended. The idea would be that she would slip in undetected, and he would fall into a state of hypnosis and be unable to prevent what happens next.

I think his role would be uncovered long before Sauron takes the tower of Minas Tirith at the end of Season 5. We could work in some form of compulsion that drives him to a meeting place, but probably easier to just have Thuringwethil find him where he is.





I am a writer on this project, and I do not have an antagonistic relationship with the Hosts. I appreciate their easygoing natures. Sometimes I disagree with their decisions, but such is life. To my knowledge, there are no children involved in this project - we are all adults here. I recognize that not everyone has a similar sense of humor or finds the same things amusing, but I think it is a very serious thing to interpret lack of agreement or laughter as bullying. Frustration I understand, and we can talk about it. The Hosts have certainly taken the time to explain their approach to adaptation several times, and they have been fairly consistent in their approach. They have also been very willing to both reconsider their decisions and to incorporate suggestions made by listeners as well as here on the boards. Not all suggestions, clearly. Sometimes they disagree. But at the end of the day, these are their decisions to make.

What we can do is to decide what hill we want to die on. We can decide that they have made the wrong choice and try to convince them of the error of their ways. But if after hearing counterarguments they persist, then we are faced with the choice of accepting their decision and working with it, or maintaining that they are wrong and moving on despite that. Deciding to die on a hill probably means deciding not to be involved in the project any longer, which is a choice everyone is free to make. Hopefully, it doesn't come to that, but 'creative differences' is a reason people walk away from collaborative projects.
 

Faelivrin

Well-Known Member
This has nothing to do with whether anyone disagrees with my ideas for the project. Nothing. Disagreement is just part of collaboration.

I interpret repeatedly saying that they want to make us miserable as mockery and hostility, and a joke about bullying. Seriously, I bared my soul about something that has been extremely painful and extremely personal for me, something I was uncomfortable with mentioning at all, to try to explain why this behavior is so painful for me to have to listen to and why this behavior is hurting me. I trusted that this board would be a safe place to say this, and the only response is to tell me I'm too sensisitve? Nobody else thinks there is anything at all wrong with stating, every single podcast, that their goal is to make us miserable? Everyone else thinks these "jokes" and mockery are funny and wonderful?

They are making jokes about something violent that kills people. I do not deserve to be dragged through a painful flashback every session, just to amuse the Execs.

I don't see how it would wreck the project for the Execs to stop crowing about how miserable they want to make us, and stop telling jokes about bullying. They are not relevant to the project. All they do is hurt me, every single podcast, and make me afraid to listen to podcasts because I know I'll be hurt yet again.
 
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MithLuin

Administrator
Staff member
I was telling you that I do not interpret their words as jokes about bullying at all. I take their words as good spirited banter with nothing mean intended. If anything, they tend to emphasize the division of labor where they come up with the big picture ideas, and then the script team works out the details. I don't speak for others, just myself, when I say that I don't have an antagonistic relationship with the Hosts. There is some friendly teasing, but nothing that I see as personal or mean-spirited.

They have mentioned me and my actions by name. They teased me about 'forcing' them to talk about Galadriel and Celeborn one session, because that was the only topic I gave them slides for. And once a long time ago they joked that they drove me to ALL CAPS once per session. These weren't generic comments about 'writers'...these were about Marie. Personal, yes, but not bullying in any sense of that word. I certainly give back that level of teasing, and once threatened Dave with violence for even suggesting that there be fewer than 7 Sons of Feanor. He...didn't take it as an actual threat, and I did not intend it as one, either.

So, no, what I hear is not something I would characterize as jokes about bullying. But if something hurts you, you should probably avoid it, for your own peace of mind.
 

amysrevenge

Well-Known Member
There's a lot to unpack here, and the political climate in which I exist makes me want to avoid shouting "never fear, a straight white man is here to solve all your problems". There are a few things I can notice, without forcing conclusions onto anyone.

First and foremost, I entirely believe everyone's reported experiences. Even when we all objectively hear the same words, the things that we remember out of them are subjective. I don't remember sessions going the way Faelivrin does - that means that I remember different things from the same source material than Faelivrin does, that's all. Neither of us is wrong about this.

Banter is a spectrum. On one end is "just the facts" dry discussion. On the other extreme is abuse. In between there is a subjective line, below which is fun teasing, and above which is bullying. Where I put my line is not correct for anyone but me. Where someone else puts their line is not correct for anyone but them. In a community, a natural equilibrium of banter is reached, where an informal maximal amount of teasing is generally accepted and understood by participants. If any given participant has a looser-than-consensus standard for banter, then they will have to self-correct to limit their teasing tendencies - if they are unable or unwilling to do this self-correction, they may find themselves no longer welcome in the group. If a given participant has a stricter-than-consensus standard for banter, they may have to lower their guard - if they are unable or unwilling to do this, they may no longer feel welcome in the group. If the group has a formal leader, then the leader's voice has a very dominant role in determining where the line is for that group.

It is normal for there to be some give and take in a group - the line might shift, and things that used to be OK become no longer OK, or things that never used to be OK become OK. It is difficult, but not impossible, for a group that has reached a consensus on the banter spectrum to make an enormous change. Where the new line is drawn might leave many former members feeling just as unwelcome as other members were feeling before the change.

In an already loose affiliation like our largely alias-based volunteer project, where the tone has been set at the outset from years of Corey's other podcasts. the conceit of this project in particular has been set up as a parody of the adversarial relationship between creatives and producers at a studio, and the majority of the participants (as far as I know) are already self-selected to be of a similar mindset to our leader, I fear that a large scale change in the tone of the product* could potentially break up the affiliation.

*Realistically we have two products, the podcast sessions and the script outlines - if this was a "real" project the scripts would be the only product, but in our case the mass appeal entertainment largely stems from the podcast, and the actual script outlines are more of a happy by-propduct.
 
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